BS: Iraq Not Becoming Another Vietnam

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Not Becoming Another Vietnam
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 02:07 PM

"This is another XXX" never means thatbvisit is indentcal. Just that in certain important ways it is similar. This is one unholy mess of a foreign war that America (and this time a few camp followers) has got itself tied into. That's enough to justuify the expression.

Obviously it's different in a lot of ways. In fact in some ways it is much more of a mess. Vietnam was a foreign war for the USA, in one corner of the world. This time it is likely to end up a much more dispersed operation, with a strong domestic component.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Not Becoming Another Vietnam
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 01:58 PM

WE are the Anglo American empire, Kendall. WE are the governments of Britain, Canada, the US, and Australia, who formed this unholy Anglo American coalition to both protect "our" declining oil fields by gaining control over fields that aren't as depleted and difficult to extract oil from. That means gaining control over oil interests historically controlled by the Russians and the French, but also to gain control of the other oil fields that haven't been tapped much, like in Uzbekistan.

Here is an excerpt of an article from 1996 that sheds a bit of light on what is going on. Note where the dateline is from.

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Unocal signs agreements for Uzbekistan oil and gas, pipeline infrastructure studies

Sugar Land, Texas, Nov. 4, 1996 -- Unocal Corporation today announced that agreements have been signed with the Republic of Uzbekistan for Unocal to evaluate the country's potential crude oil and natural gas resources and to determine the feasibility of utilizing part of Uzbekistan's pipeline network to tie into Unocal's proposed Central Asia Oil Pipeline (CAOP). The CAOP, when constructed, will link Central Asia oil producers to a new deepwater port on Pakistan's Arabian Sea coast.

The agreements were signed by the government of the Republic of Uzbekistan; Uzbekneftegaz, the national oil and gas company; Unocal International Energy Ventures, Ltd., a Unocal subsidiary: and Delta Oil Pipeline Company (Uzbekistan), Ltd., and Delta Oil Company (Uzbekistan), Ltd., units of Delta Oil Company of Saudi Arabia, Unocal's coventurer in the projects.

The first agreement calls for evaluating existing pipelines in Uzbekistan that could be used as part of the gathering system for the CAOP. In addition, Unocal will work with experts from Uzbekistan to estimate future Uzbekistan production levels from oil and condensate fields and determine potential export volumes for the CAOP.

A second agreement calls for a joint study with Uzbekneftegaz of the potential of new oil and gas exploration areas in Uzbekistan. The company said the joint study could lead to negotiations for contracts related to oil and gas production in the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Not Becoming Another Vietnam
From: Peace
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 01:58 PM

GUEST is not posting under a name or a cookie. So why answer? SSDD.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Not Becoming Another Vietnam
From: kendall
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 01:49 PM

Anyone remember the Uncle Remus story of the TAR BABY ?

This may not be the second Viet Nam, but it sure as hell is looking like the first Iraq. Look, it is their country, they don't want us there!
How many times in the past have we backed the minority and ended up having the majority hate us?
When will we ever learn? Who are we going to turn the country over to? The Sunis hate us, the Kurds don't trust us (with damn good reason) and now, the Shiits also are rebelling against our occupation. Guest, where are we headed in Iraq?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Not Becoming Another Vietnam
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 01:27 PM

Don't mistake my position for support of the Iraq war, please. I raise this point because I am as opposed to the Iraq war now as I was a year ago. But not for the reasons you all seem to be opposing the war.

It is critical that we understand this history, particularly in light of the upcoming presidential election. Kerry voted to support the Bush administration's pre-emptive war in October 2002. Yet, when there was a legitimate justification for going to war in the Middle East to protect US oil interests (ie when Saddam invaded Kuwait), Kerry voted against taking action against Iraq for invading Kuwait.

I also opposed the Gulf War, but not because I supported Saddam. I opposed the Gulf War, because it was reactionary and didn't deal with the wider repercussions of the West going to war in the Middle East to protect the West's oil interests. I was also opposed to US support for the Taliban in Afghanistan, and opposed to US support for Saddam in the Iran-Iraq war.

I also was opposed to Britain carving up the Middle East, and preventing democratic elections in Iran in order to maintain control over Iran's oil. I was also opposed to the creation of the state of Israel at the expense of the Palestinians.

We are now harvesting a crop of hatred and greed that have grown from the seeds we sowed in somebody else's soil. We need to be clear about this history if we are to get ourselves out of Iraq, but also if we are to change the way our government acts on our behalf around the world. We also need to change our own consumption habits, to bring pressure to bear on the global corporate elite to change the way they do business by having nations engage in their proxy wars.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Not Becoming Another Vietnam
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 01:26 PM

Since the end result for Vietnam was a unified country, it appears to me that the prognosis for Iraq is far worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Not Becoming Another Vietnam
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 01:15 PM

The historic reasons for choosing to sent troops to Vietnam are very different from the historic reasons we chose to invade and occupy Iraq. So was the means of getting the troops there. In Vietnam, we first sent "advisors". The troops got there through "escalation" of hostilities. We did not declare the leaders of Vietnam our enemies, we did not accuse them before the world community of creating stockpiles of nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons and of giving those weapons to Buddhist terrorists, and we did not pre-emptively invade and occupy Vietnam.

The war in Vietnam was carried out as part of the US' geopolitical strategy to contain China and the spread of communism.

So how are the two wars the same?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Not Becoming Another Vietnam
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 01:07 PM

I don't think we will need to defoliate Iraq, Ebbie. Other than that is sure seems like Deja Vu all over again.

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Not Becoming Another Vietnam
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 01:03 PM

"The reason making things right will now be so difficult for the US is because regardless of who wins in November, we will have a president that supported a unilateral, pre-emptive war against a nation that posed no threat to us. " And in what important ways is this different from Vietnam?

Subject: BS: Iraq Not Becoming Another Vietnam
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:50 PM

Anti-Bush hysteria at this juncture of history is extremely dangerous.

Why?

Because people get sucked into downright ridiculous mindsets, and make assertions that in the long run will hurt everyone, like "Iraq is Bush's Vietnam". We need to know and understand the history of what is happening now, and of what happened then. Our ability to change what is happening now depends upon our ability to look critically at the situation, and think creatively to find solutions to the problems caused by the Bush administration AND the US Congress. The Bush administration never would have gotten away with the invasion of Iraq is the US Congress hadn't had the vote to give him authority to proceed with the pre-emptive invasion.

We also need to look at the British collusion in this. Here, the history of the region is crucial to our understanding of what is going on in the region over oil. We the people (and I include myself in this) also need to educate ourselves about the geopolitics of oil. We don't understand how the Russians, French, British, and Americans have controlled the world's oil, and fought a lot wars to keep control over it because our economies are completely dependent upon it.

The comparisons being made between Vietnam and Iraq are ridiculous. I did however, hear an accurate, correct comparison somewhere yesterday though. That is, the deteriorating situation in Iraq is starting to look like Lebanon on steroids.

It does no one any good to try and compare Iraq to Vietnam, because the circumstances and contexts (not to mention continents) of the two conflicts are so different. Also, hand wringing and running around hysterically claiming the sky is falling and it is Bush's fault, shows that we Americans are in complete denial of who is responsible for the mess we find ourselves in. Democrats are as guilty as Republicans, and a President Kerry's wealth represents the same economic interests a President Bush's wealth represents.

The reason making things right will now be so difficult for the US is because regardless of who wins in November, we will have a president that supported a unilateral, pre-emptive war against a nation that posed no threat to us.