BS: When are fire fighters heroes?

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 11:04 PM

Seems to me that firefighters go out, every time they go out, ready and willing to put their lives on the line for others. That they are trained and equiped -- hopefully with the best possible of each -- to do so is to be expected. Ditto for cops, conservation officers (who, unlike cops, can usually assume that those they confront are armed), nurses, EMTs, soldiers, and all.

My God! I wouldn't want to share a fire, an ambulance, a foxhole, an ER, a patrol car, or even my library with those who were NOT as well trained and equiped as they could be!

So let's use an accounting term and say that equipage and training are "fixed assets" and considered givens in the equation. They are assumed.

I know a bunch of fire fighters. My cousin is a fire chief who came up from the ranks, as did his father before him (at one point he was his father's boss).

Any of them would "go in" if there was any hope of saving life. And this is especially true if the life is that of a child.

Heroism, to me anyway, consists of going beyond courage. It's selfless. It's Sally Rooke staying on her switchboard to warn her friends and neighbors of a flash flood, staying there until she was swept away. It's Kate Shelley crawling across the bridge in the storm. It's the firefighters and the other "first responders" who perished on September 11. It's Richard Sorenson (died October 9, 2004) jumping on a grenade and saving the wounded sharing his hole in the Solomons in WW2.

To me it's also the mother or father who trudges off each day to work s/he hates so that the family is fed and clothed. But these sorts are a different breed of heroes, and not under discussion here.

I seldom tell a fire captain he's full of shit, but this one is.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 10:55 PM

" you won't get too many of us wanting to be called heroes"

Most who really are, don't want to be called either...

That doesn't stop them from being

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: GUEST,Anonymous
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 10:53 PM

Bob,

I have to agree with the assessment of your buddy regarding the loss of so many guys and gals in the collapse of the Twin Towers. The command decisions were stupid, IMO.

I have been fighting fires for ten years. During that time I have entered about 20 burning structures doing searches for people, fire attack, rapid intervention, protection or fire suppression. I have never felt like a hero. Firefighting is team work, and firefighters work as teams. Dispatchers get the info, drivers get us there, hydrant guys/gals supply water, BA people do entry, pump operators make sure the guys/gals on the nozzle ends have water, teams provide cover and protection, others track our movement via radio, others make sure we are suited up properly, and we go do the job. It's about doing the job, not about heroism. Heroes don't last long in the fire service, because nobady wants to do entry with a hero. It's too dangerous.

Recently, some of our guys were awarded stuff for bravery on a rescue a few years back. They were embarrassed to go because they wanted the certificates and medals to be awarded to the department, not themselves. Getting killed at a fire scene can happen. It has dangers. But as your friend said, we have bunker gear that can withstand high temps and breathing apparatus that will allow us air that isn't heated. It also keeps the toxins out of our lungs. Cost? As he said, about a thousand dollars. (I had some burning stuff from a road flare blow onto my gear and burn three small holes in my jacket. Had to get it repaired at a cost of close to $150) because the pinprick holes destroyed the integrity of the jacket. Our training, which is ongoing, is very costly. Having the entire 10-01 in Canada can run as much as five thousand dollars just for the courses and materials. Our aerial ladder truck was cheap at $375,000. We recently purchased a new pumper, and it was a bare-bones $85,000--no hose, nozzles, tools included. Our rescue truck carries upwards of $150,000 of fancy tools--what people call the Jaws (and we call cutters, spreaders) and other entry tools, rescue ropes and pulleys, stretchers, air tanks, first aid stuff, radios and batteries, etc. The truck was about $165,000.

New building construction--cheap and fast stuff wherein one burned-through support on a floor can make the whole floor unsafe (and someone's floor is someone else's ceiling) has made it mandatory for firefighters to study building construction--theory and practical. As your friend said, we have the training, and we do everything possible to anticipate and eliminate the dangers at every scene to which we respond. The results may seem heroic, but the results come from training, communication and knowledge. We work hard before we ever get near a working fire, and the stuff we do is what we practise doing as often as we can. Really, it's no big deal. Too many folks saw "Backdraft" and it's a hard movie to deal with. Great music, kinda good story, and lotsa really stupid firefighting. If anyone on the department to which I belong saw me even thinking about entering an engulfed structure 1) with an open jacket, 2) with the strap of my lid hanging loose, 3) without gloves, 4) without BA, I would be immediately relieved of my duties, and my pager would be requested within 24 hours. The stuff that happened at the Towers was tragic, and I mean tragic because it was not necessary for that many lives of emergency workers to be lost. Most of those deaths did not have to happen; indeed, most should not have happened, IMO.

In short, emergency work is not about heroism. It is about doing the job and helping people at the same time. It's work we're proud to do, but you won't get too many of us wanting to be called heroes, or brave, or stuff like that. It's not what the job's about.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Deckman
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 10:33 PM

Geeze Clinton! ... why don't you just come straight out and tell me what you REALLY think instead of beating around the bush!

I truly did NOT want to start yet another devise/derisive subject. And, I might add, I hope that NO ONE can figure out how to put a political spin on this one.

CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 10:22 PM

Bullsh!t...

Given that their wage sucks for the work they do, they are heroes for even THINKING about 'doing their jobs'...

Teachers... Nurses... Cops... Fire-fighters... Ambulance Drivers... Soldiers... You call them your heroes, but you PAY them like chumps!

"Those fire command officers in charge of the scene at 9/11 should be brought up on criminal charges. They KNEW what was happenning, and yet they knowingly sent those firefighters to their deaths."

He sounds like an a$$h0le... given that nothing like this had ever happened before, how could the command officers possibly KNOW what was happening? I dismiss his comments as verbal diarrhoea

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 10:18 PM

Well, it's certainly refreshing to see an opinion so far removed from the politically correct, unquestioning admiration whether one agrees with it or not...

Subject: BS: When are firemen heros?
From: Deckman
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 10:04 PM

This last spring, I was on a construction project when I met a very interesting man. He is a full time firefighter, a Captain, I believe. He worked four days on, three days off, etc. Because of his mixed hours, he is able to paint houses as his side job.

During a coffee break, I started a conversation with him. I knew his boss and several of his fellow firefighters. Quite naturally the conversation turned to the firefighters that died in the twin towers on 9/11. I asked him about that. His comments startled me, as I'd never heard anything like this before.

He said, in essance: "Those dumb bastards that died were NOT heros, they were just doing their jobs. They were trained and equipped. They were simply following orders."

He then pointed to a house across the street and said: "If that house blew up, and YOU ran into that house to save someone ... YOU would be a hero. You would be a hero because you wouldn't know what you were doing. You aren't trained. You would not be wearing a thousand dollars worth of fire protection gear."

He went on to say: "If I ran into that house, I would have already made the call, I would have donned my gear, and I would evacuate everyone safely."

Then, and here's the amazing part, he went on to say: "Those fire command officers in charge of the scene at 9/11 should be brought up on criminal charges. They KNEW what was happenning, and yet they knowingly sent those firefighters to their deaths."

I'll be interested in your comments. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson