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BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Oct 06 - 12:52 PM Big Stick, I agree that guns are over-glorified in the USA, and always have been. I agree that the USA has an overly gun-oriented culture and that that has caused harm. I have repeatedly complained about the awful "shooter" games that are sold to kids by video game companies, and I would be in favor of banning those, because they creat a sick mindset in people. However, I do not agree with penalizing all legal and responsible gun owners in a nation for the actions of a few unstable people in that nation. And I don't know what joke you are referring to that you say I made...? You know, we have ended up talking about a lot of different things on this thread as it went along. That happens in a conversation involving many different people. If I made a joke somewhere in the midst of all that...it does NOT indicate that I think there is anything funny about what happened at the Amish school. So don't get too carried away, okay? I know it feels just great to whip yourself up into a righteous fury at someone else, but you may be just missing the point in so doing. I am not the dark and dreadful figure of your fantasy about me. I object to extreme kneejerk prejudice on BOTH sides of the gun debate, not just on one side of it. I take a middle path. And by the way....I don't own a gun. I had a pellet gun and a BB gun when I was a kid, but that's as far as I ever went with it.
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Bunnahabhain Date: 04 Oct 06 - 11:56 AM Very true Shambles, but you miss a major point. Prior to 9/11, the assumpion during a hijack was that the hijackers want something, and for that they would need the passengers alive. Now, there will be the suspicion they're just going to crash us into something, and some of the passengers will fight back. We saw that with one of the planes on 9/11. The point is, if the marshal can be overpowered, so can the terrorists. It's still only one gun, and there are going to be enough people willing to risk dying right now, to prevent certain death in an hour. sorry about the thread drift. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Paul from Hull Date: 04 Oct 06 - 11:50 AM Well....the thread actually had a pretty good run before a Troll crawled out of the slime. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: The Shambles Date: 04 Oct 06 - 11:38 AM It is difficult to understand the thinking behind a situation where effective security had largely ensured that the chances of guns being smuggled aboard planes were practically nil. To the extent that crude knives were the weapons used in the 9/11 hijackings. So in reply to this - there are now guns conveniently taken on board just waiting for the marshall equipped with them - to be overpowered. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: pdq Date: 04 Oct 06 - 11:14 AM Back to the subject. When the man who committed the Amish murders felt a bout of mental illness coming on, he should have checked into a mental institution. We have emergency call numbers and councillors available 24/7 in all parts of the US. There is no one to blame here except the perp. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Donuel Date: 04 Oct 06 - 10:59 AM When will it end, I do not know. Where does it begin? with posts like pdq |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Rapparee Date: 04 Oct 06 - 09:36 AM The Amish describe themselves as "non-resistive Christians." They will literally not raise a hand to defend themselves if attacked. Literally. Amish girls have been raped, Amish adults have been blackmailed, Amish of both sexes have been beaten and robbed and they have never resisted. Nor did they go to the police -- and they only cooperated with the police when their Bishops pointed out that others would be hurt if they did not cooperate. Yes, he could have hacked these children to death. This...creature...who killed the girls lived within an Amish area and would have known these things. He would have known that there was no phone at the school and he would have had time to do what he wanted. The news today also reports that he molested young female relative twenty years back and was suffering over the stillbirth of his daughter Elise in 1997. IF he had gotten help at either of these two events what happened may have been prevented. You bet he came "prepared." This was obviously a premeditated crime, and I have no sympathy to waste on the perpetrator. My prayers and sorrow go out to families of the girls and to the man's own family, who will now bear the stigma of "you KNOW what their daddy did, don't you?". I'll spare a prayer for the perp...maybe. But then, no matter how greatly I respect and even like them, I'm not Amish and yes, I would have fought back. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Greg F. Date: 04 Oct 06 - 09:33 AM Here [pdq's posts] '"facts talk, bullshit walks". Based on recent history including other threads that appears to be wrong end first. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: The Shambles Date: 04 Oct 06 - 08:56 AM If you get real close - you can do a lot of damage with a lot of things and can certainly kill people with a hatchet. But you can't shoot people with a hatchet - and this is about shooting and how to prevent such things as described here. These shootings will certainly not be prevented by just repeating the same old excuses. Which bring little comfort to the victims and their families. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Raptor Date: 04 Oct 06 - 07:29 AM Just this morning there was a brutal Drive by hatcheting all the victoms were fataly injured. The attack was said to be gang related. People are up in arms about proper Hatchet controls saying "Hatchets don't kill people, Hatchets chop wood". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: The Shambles Date: 04 Oct 06 - 05:41 AM The beginning of the end to all these U.S. shootings is pretty obvious. Sadly I see little sign of this beginning. Charlton Heston was born on this day (4 October) in 1923. When I was watching his films (like The Ten Commandments) when I was very young - the picture of God in my head - used to look just like Charlton Heston. Keep on taking the tablets - I suppose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: pdq Date: 03 Oct 06 - 09:40 PM Sorry to tell you this, Birdfeathers, but your nice set-up for a great philosophical discussion is wasted on me. I am a relatively simple person living in rural America. Here '"facts talk, bullshit walks". Even worse, my science background leads reinforces that opinion. Bill D. is philosophy major and a much better BS man than I. Several others may want to take the bait, but as Dave Van Ronk once said, "Somebody else - not me". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:49 PM What is a "bad person", pdq? I'm just wondering what your definition of that would be. We all know (in a general sense) what a bad action is...or a bad decision...or a bad result...or a bad situation....but what is a bad person? And who decides for certain who is and is not a "bad person"? Who can claim to have that kind of innate authority? On what would they base such a claim? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: pdq Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:33 PM People who have mental health issues are not bad people. They are not to blame for their condition unless it was brought-on by drug use. They do, however, have a duty to the rest of society to control base tendancies. These are well-known to each and every person. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Donuel Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:25 PM Rapaire, part of that disturbing detail was a check list that included KY jelly as well as tools, wood, hardware... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Donuel Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:20 PM Its not strange that you have such a problem with neurotoxic insanity explanations. I suppose it is scary to think that a reasonable and sane person (like yourself?) could undergo a complete transformation in as little as 24 hours. Behavioralists might try to discuss "mitigating guilt anxiety" but face it, no explanation will satisfy people who want or need a clear and linear understanding when the act is so heinous and alien to the life long character of an individual. I know of four chemical compounds that have been reaspondisible for temorary insanity. They are powerful, profound and have nothing to do with the Twinky defense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: pdq Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:06 PM This is where the "stuff in the water" controversy started: "Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Donuel - PM Date: 03 Oct 06 - 10:42 AM The shooter in this case had no history of violence. None. IF I had to theorize with no real data at this point, this man may be one of those rare cases of nerve poisoning from a very real combination of pesticides or herbacides." The sudden murderous insanity that they cause far outweigh a nice green lawn. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is very difficult to give a straight reply to such a statement, although mental health issues are in play in this case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Oct 06 - 07:43 PM If they can express compassion for the perpetrator as well as the victims, then they are about 100 x wiser than the national average. Makes me wish more people were Amish. Yes, Kitty, I mispelled "fluoridation". Quite unintentional, I assure you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Herga Kitty Date: 03 Oct 06 - 07:14 PM Rapaire - on the UK news a member of the Amish community did express compassion for the perpetrator as well as the victims. But news reports also now suggest that the attack was planned in very disturbing detail. (I agree the tooth stuff should be on a different thread. I know UK and US spellings are different, but for the tooth fairy posters, on the UK side of the pond we reckon it's fluoridation not flouridation.) Kitty |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Oct 06 - 05:31 PM I think it might be a good idea to just launch another thread, guys, if you really want to debate the pros and cons of flouridation further. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: GUEST,Ed Date: 03 Oct 06 - 04:39 PM We've had a terrible tragedy here, and the thread has descended into talking about teeth. 'Go figure' as I think you colonials say.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: pdq Date: 03 Oct 06 - 04:35 PM Wow, a debate about flouridation. This is great. Next we can discuss Billy Sol Estes. I don't think Henry Marshall's death was suicide, do you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Bill D Date: 03 Oct 06 - 04:26 PM 'flour'idated water is too thick to drink, anyway. but what I don't understand is why one 'believes' fluoride in the water is bad for you, when 50 years of tests show that it isn't...in properly regulated amounts. When I was quite young, I lived for awhile in an area of Texas which had natural fluoride in the water...it 'probably' helped me by giving some protection to my teeth that served me well later. The comparisons with areas using non-fluoride water is one of the reasons they decided to add it almost universally. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Oct 06 - 01:27 PM Yeah... (smile) I think you would find that if we met in real life and had a chance to talk sensibly (which is not so easy in this cyber-venue here) we would probably agree about a good many things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: pdq Date: 03 Oct 06 - 01:22 PM "I do believe flouridation is bad for people...I'd rather drink untreated water." We agree! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Oct 06 - 01:18 PM Yeah... ;-) Well, quite honestly, pdq, I have no opinion one way or the other about what Donuel said there. I just don't know enough about that to have an opinion. But I do believe flouridation is bad for people. How bad, I couldn't say. I'd rather drink untreated water, thanks, just as long as it's pure and unpolluted water, needless to say. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Donuel Date: 03 Oct 06 - 12:54 PM Now the shooter is said to have admitted to molesting two relatives: a 3 and 4 year old girl in his youth. If that was 20 years ago or not seems unclear. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Donuel Date: 03 Oct 06 - 12:51 PM Seriously a guess is a guess. I guessed correctly that Reagan had organic brain disease in his 4th year as president. The neurotoxin induced murder spree is rare but real none the less. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: pdq Date: 03 Oct 06 - 12:41 PM Birdfeathers...at least you know I am not being serious. Please re-read the previous post by Donnie H. I think he IS serious. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Oct 06 - 12:37 PM Actually, pdq, the flouride IS bad for you...but you got one thing wrong. It's a capitalist plot. ;-) (thar's a lotta money to be made sellin' flouride to municipalities!) Pretty well everything that happens in this society is a capitalist plot, come to think of it.... So who needs commies to totally screw things up? Not us! We kin do it all by our lonesomes, by gum! Ka-ching! (cash register) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: GUEST Date: 03 Oct 06 - 12:34 PM Catspaw you are right it dosen`t matter what innocent party is gunned down, my reason for starting this Thread was the fact that I spent a few days with these gentle people in 1971, I suppose that is why I felt so bad about this tragedy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: katlaughing Date: 03 Oct 06 - 11:37 AM Yes, Rapaire, I do believe it might have been different if he'd used an axe. For one, he would have had to catch them and get up close and personal with each individual. The adults might have been able to overpower him, the kids might have been able to get away. Potential victims might have a fighting chance against a hand-weapon as opposed to a gun, imo. Some Native American tribes also would pray for the victims AND the gunman. Traditional Navajo would sing a "Blessing Way" for him as he would be considered very ill and in need of healing. Of course, they would also Sing for the victims. Mitakuye Oyasin |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: pdq Date: 03 Oct 06 - 11:05 AM Nope. It's the flouride we put in the water. Been tellin' ya for forty years now. That flouride suff is a Communist plot. Causes brain damage, making it easier for the Commies to take us over. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Donuel Date: 03 Oct 06 - 10:42 AM The shooter in this case had no history of violence. None. IF I had to theorize with no real data at this point, this man may be one of those rare cases of nerve poisoning from a very real combination of pesticides or herbacides. The sudden murderous insanity that they cause far outweigh a nice green lawn. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Rapparee Date: 03 Oct 06 - 09:49 AM Would this have been different if he had used an axe or a hatchet? As I noted earlier, I have spent many years working in Amish areas and I have great respect for them. Possibly the most brilliant man I've ever met was Amish and considered himself a simple farmer -- who just happened to have testified in the Amish Schools case, was for years the Superintendent of Amish Schools in Geauga County Ohio, literally wrote the book on teaching in the Amish schools, literally wrote the book for parents and students, wrote history textbook for the schools entitled "Our Better Country", a fictionalized account of his decision to stay Amish, and his own autobiography (I own the last two titles). And yet, even in his seventies, he maintained a sense of wonder and a religious faith I envy. Uri would have prayed for the souls of the girls and their killer, because, as he once said to me, "Those who live violent lives are ill and need help, so I pray for them." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: SINSULL Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:56 AM The gunman claimed in his suicide notes that he was getting revenge for an injury received twenty years ago at the hands of a little girl. I wonder if the "little girl" remembers what that was all about. Five dead children and his own kids labelled for life as the offspring of a mass murderer. Then there are the boys and adults who left those girls behind. Sorry for the ramble. SINS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:43 AM After a school shooting here, all handguns in private ownership were banned. Even our Olympic shooters have to keep their weapons, and practice, abroad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: GUEST,wordy Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:37 AM Let's compare it to people who own Rotweilers. Two children savaged badly in a week, and other owners immediately say it's not the dog it's the owner! My dog's safe! If there were no Rotweilers in private hands no children would be mauled by them, simple fact. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Big Mick Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:35 AM From the British left... From the British right.... And here is what Straight Dope says... Certainly fodder for a whole thread there, huh? Interesting stuff. Let's leave this thread for the expressions of horror and sadness, and take the discussion of gun controls HERE |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Donuel Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:20 AM I heard they are now trying to pry a weapon from the cold dead hand of Alzheimer victim, Charlton Heston. Heston's defense of guns while in Columbine a day after the school shooting is his crowning acheivment of a misguided life. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Divis Sweeney Date: 03 Oct 06 - 06:19 AM Illegal gun ownership is not out of control in the U.K. Yes there are a few areas as Bassic has said concerning those involved in drug turf wars. Every country has this problem. I think a lot are carried by these guys as a threat, something to wave about. A few sad cases involving children being shot around Manchester have made the news in the past year. The big problem we need to deter is the carrying of knives. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: The Shambles Date: 03 Oct 06 - 06:07 AM And conversely, if enough decent people were armed, there would be fewer of these incidents because of the consequences to the perpetrator. This is the first century where people put total trust in police to defend them; and accordingly one can never be safe in public. The idea that the free availability of guns = safety and peace is a strange one. It is not one that is supported in places in the world where this is now the case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Bassic Date: 03 Oct 06 - 05:54 AM I think that BigMick is referring to the strengthening of the gun control laws in the UK a few years ago. I`m not sure of the details but if memory serves me correctly it made it much harder for licenced gun owners to hold automatic and certain other weapons. It followed a similar school tragedy (Dunblaine possibly?) where the fact that an automatic weapon was used, dramatically increased the death toll. The reasoning as I understand it, was that the legislators took the view that there is no legitimate reason for a UK citizen to have or use an automatic weapon or hand guns anywhere other than in a shooting range. It is still legal to hold a shotgun or similar with the appropriate licence and secure storage in the home. I may be inacurate in the detail here but I am fairly certain that this was the general principal that came into law. I would be VERY surprised to see any change in the gradual rise in violent crime statistics over the last 20 or 30 years in the UK that could be in anyway attributed to the change in these laws. Yes there is gun related violent crime in the UK. But my feeling is that it is as it always has been, mostly gang/drug related "turf wars" involving illegaly obtained weapons, or tragic "domestic" incidents, often involving legitemately held weapons by people described as "pillars of the comunity" or in farming communities, where the presence of the "family shotgun" in the house puts deadly force into the hands of an unexpectedly disturbed mind. It has always been thus and tragically probably always will be. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule. But I have to say that I sleep easier in my bed knowing that 99.9% (made up statistic but you get my point) of the UK population will never handle or know where to get hold of, let alone know how to use a gun. And will never have to face anyone carying one either. I know its a trade off of risk, to arm or not to arm the general public, but in the UK its a trade off that I believe is worth taking and makes for an (overall) safer society. IMHO. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: George Papavgeris Date: 03 Oct 06 - 05:01 AM From the reports I have seen it doesn't look as if he had it in for the Amish particularly. The school was simply there, and it offered ready hostages/victims, that's all. As for the gun thing: To commit a crime you need a motive and opportunity. Reducing the availability of weapons reduces the opportunity, plain and simple, no stats or convoluted explanations needed. As a corollary, it would also reduce the number of gun-related accidents, for the same reason (reduced opportuity). As for 'rights', we are born with no rights, not a single one, except those that society and laws confer. The right to bear arms is one such, in some countries; but it's society's choice to confer it, not a god-given right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: catspaw49 Date: 03 Oct 06 - 04:28 AM Ard, out of curiosity here, why all the emphasis on Amish? Dead school kids are dead school kids. This guy may have had some extra hard-on for the Amish but this is yet another school shooting and THAT is tragic. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha Date: 03 Oct 06 - 04:24 AM The sad news continues another Amish child dead, in the district where I live I do not know one gun owner, the only excepition are the wildfowlers, and from the armed conflict with the British ended there has not been one killing in the area, no guns less chance of a mass killing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Dave Hanson Date: 03 Oct 06 - 04:02 AM These madmen pick shools as targets because they know that killing children will cause the maximum outrage. Guns don't kill people, people kill people, oh really ? but if I don't have a gun, I can't shoot you can I ? It will never end, America has already gone too far. Big Mick, what move to take guns from the British people? the British public haven't generally carried firearms for a hundred years [ or more ] Chuck Heston eh! what a twat. eric |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: number 6 Date: 03 Oct 06 - 12:00 AM Too tragic and horrific to even comprehend. This is beyond a 'gun thing'. sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Oct 06 - 11:56 PM Watch that trick knee, Raptor! ;-) I know a guy who broke his own nose that way. Wanna come over and see my guns? (just joking...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end? From: GUEST,Billy Date: 02 Oct 06 - 11:27 PM McGrath, your notion of the Amish arming themselves beggars belief! Q. "What goes 'Clip-clop, clip-clop, bang!bang!bang! Clip-clop, clip-clop?' A. An Amish drive-by shooting" |
