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Where have the audiences gone?
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: GUEST Date: 08 Aug 08 - 11:16 AM ADGC And he wants us to stop doing this? I never started it.
Thanks. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Jeri Date: 08 Aug 08 - 10:39 AM GUEST, regarding chord progressions, I think its more like: (In C) A D G C |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Peace Date: 08 Aug 08 - 10:18 AM You saw the movie "Airplane" didn't you. |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: GUEST,glueman Date: 08 Aug 08 - 10:17 AM The audiences read this thread. Then hung themselves from the rafters. |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Peace Date: 08 Aug 08 - 10:14 AM Point taken, Jim, re the efficacy of trad. Likely very different in Ireland. Keep well. |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: TheSnail Date: 08 Aug 08 - 10:08 AM Jim Carroll are you being complacent because your own club is doing well No, I'm just reporting my experience that we put on for the most part traditional and "in the tradition" music and attract an audience. A hundred yards away, there is another club doing the same. I know of many others. I go to major and minor folk festivals and other smaller gatherings where I find traditional music thriving. My fellow folk club residents go to yet others. We frequently book guests who seem to be able to arrange extended tours and don't just rely on us for bookings. You, on the other hand, were told by a friend that a folk club in the north of England once held an evening of Beatles songs and on the basis of this you declare the UK folk scene moribund. I know there are new songs being written in the UK - I wasn't aware that they were being published to any great extent, and I'm not sure how many are based on traditional forms, which is what I was talking about. Quite. |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Aug 08 - 09:35 AM Jim, I don't know whether to say,'Your welcome' or how to take your part of the post, referencing my 'out of tune' line. I hope it wasn't taken offensively. I DO know, and appreciate the difference between traditional music purely done, and a 'purist'...however, the thread was about,'Where have the audiences gone?'. Like so many things out there, the pendulum swings as to what is popular and what is not. If one is going to stick to a strictly traditional program in their music, well, they better play it not just well, but extremely outstanding, that is if they want to attract an audience. My comment about the 'out of tune', is meant for those musicians, who come into the studio, and feel that using a digital tuner, is an 'insult' to their 'I've got perfect pitch' rap...when in actuality, they've just got used to hearing themselves out of tune for so long, that they think that that is the way their instrument is supposed to sound like..but in ensemble playing, somebody's always out, and of course, its never the one who couldn't stoop so low, as to use a tuner. Those are the same ones, who blame the audience(s), for Not appreciating 'good stuff'....Just thought I'd clarify that...for we all have run across those(or used to)....or you might be one, (I do not know), and perhaps needed a handy hint, found on the web...Hey, keep pickin'! |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 Aug 08 - 09:15 AM Guest: Wish I'd said that! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 Aug 08 - 03:26 AM Alan, Don't know about being owed a pint - it looks as if I owe you an apology. Please put it down to the red mist before the eyes whenever I meet up with terms like "twenty verse dirge" - which, as has been said, I took out of context (more later on getting teenagers involved in our music). There were plenty of other examples on this and other threads which I could have chosen - however, our 'Guest from Sanity' saved me the search with "the 'purists'......they're always out of tune" - thanks for that guest (or is it Sanity?). I always find that having our songs sneered at by 'snigger wrongsighters' is a little little having squatters break into your home, and then complain about your taste in wallpaper. The problem with these people is that they have no history, no workable definition, no validating documentation, no research - no pedigree; their identity exists purely in their heads, and eventually, like the mini-choirs, 'electric folk', and all the other fads that have gone before, they will eventually drift off into the mists of time leaving little or nothing behind them. Even their Icon-in-Chief, Dylan, had the good business sense to move into fresh fields and pastures-more-lucrative - as the man said... "that's all over now Baby Blue"...... See - anybody can slag off other peoples' tastes.... but wouldn't it be far better to just accept that we all like different things and let each other get on with it. Bryan "I give up on you Jim. If you are determined to be miserable," I really am not miserable (disappointed sometimes maybe). I've had a great time in the music; over forty years of it - met some wonderful people and heard some beautiful songs and stories; if nothing else, I have the memories (and the recordings) to fall back on. We're now living in Ireland where we have wall-to-wall music of an enviable standard 4 nights (and more) a week, within walking distance, as well as a choice of singing and music week-end on an average of around 2 a month within driving distance: Joe Heaney, Frank Harte, Geordie Hanna, Diarmuid Ó Súilleabháin, Mrs Crotty, Seamus Ennis, Johnny Doran, Micho Russell, Willie Clancy, Frankie Kennedy.... and many more; all are honoured with a weekend of singing or music (they don't just bury their dead singers and musicians here - the give them a festival). We can turn on our television or radio and be regaled with high standard folk music programmes most nights of the week, and should we decide to take our activities further - we can always apply to the Arts Council for funding to work on our own collection (a bit of a plug - Lyric F.M., the (usually) classics based Irish radio station are broadcasting three programmes on the Travellers we recorded in London later this month, starting on Saturday 23rd - commercial break over). As I said, not miserable (but I might be if you gave up on me, Bryan), and certainly not bored. My problem is that we have now reached a stage in our lives when we have to make choices. We have a mass of material which we recorded in the UK which we have to decide what to do with. Do we spend valuable time sorting out and editing the 20 years worth of work we did with Walter Pardon (and the others we recorded) in order to make it generally available, say on the internet (are there enough people interested) - or do we let it stay on the shelves of the British Library and let posterity judge its worth. I have always tended to judge questions like this on the state of the clubs; my main interest in folk song has always been as a performed art rather than an academic study. I joined this thread in order to find out whether my judgment of the club scene was an accurate one - I wasn't making a statement regarding your (Bryan's) complacency - it was a question - are you being complacent because your own club is doing well - if not, what is all the fuss about? (nearly 270 postings to this thread when I last counted). I would like to think that my impressions are wrong and there will be enough interest to keep the clubs going to allow people to have the hairs on the back of their neck bristle the first time they hear Sheila McGregor sing 'Tiftie's Annie' as happened to me (my condolences to those of you whose attention span doesn't stretch beyond songs of more than three verses!) Frank Hamilton put the value of the clubs in a nutshell for me in his last posting - it would be a pity to lose them. Peace: "Trad music in clubs will likely begin to die unless it shares the stage with other musics," Sorry - beg to differ; in my experience the opposite is the case. I believe the mess that the clubs appear to be in is largely down to trying to please all of the people all of the time, and ending up pleasing nobody. I think this works both ways; I have read from singer-songwriters on this forum that describing an evening of their songs as 'folk' repels rather than attracts audiences - so why the charade. The success of the Irish scene is largely down to the fact that the people who did the work threw the stowaways overboard rather than inviting them up to the wheelhouse - they decided what their tradition was and went for it - this has been to the benefit of all sides of the divide. Alan: Sorry - this is getting awfully long; but the sun is shining and there's an acre of grass out there - so I'm not going to get another chance. I'm not sure that attracting teenagers is one of my priorities but Pat and I did a number of talks at schools and colleges in London years ago without having to compromise or water down the recorded material we used, with some apparent success. One of the best of these we did was in Deptford, when we took Irish Traveller storyteller Mikeen McCarthy to a youth festival. He sat for nearly two hours and sang and told stories as if he was back on his site performing to adults - we may have been deluding ourselves, but they appeared to love it. I believe it all lies in the presentation of the material rather than the watering-down. In the long run - the answer lies in getting our songs and stories accepted and respected by the Education Establishment rather than adapting our clubs to attract the young. Whew - better leave it there. Jim Carroll PS Bryan "Fintan Vallely, or Con 'Fada' O'Driscoll's 'The Spoons Murder'" I know there are new songs being written in the UK - I wasn't aware that they were being published to any great extent, and I'm not sure how many are based on traditional forms, which is what I was talking about. |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: GUEST Date: 07 Aug 08 - 11:30 PM 6 /2 /5 /1 C /G /Bflat/ A flat counting the semitones. doesn't sound like anything I've ever heard. Give me an exact example. |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 07 Aug 08 - 03:19 PM 6251, is the chord progression, using the 6th(root) then going to the 2nd 5th then 1....take the chord progression of...hmmm..say 'Alice's Restaurant'...humm it in your head....hear the chords??...it is a very common folk progression...actually a lot more than folk..used in jazz...pop...just about everything.. |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Alan Day Date: 07 Aug 08 - 03:09 PM Firstly thank you Pip and Snail for your support. Jim you have picked up a very small part of my posting to try and make Folk Clubs of more interest to youngsters ,who will be the future of Folk Music.I have been involved with promoting Traditional music for forty years and it is what I enjoy and what I work hard at. Above all most go out to a Folk Club for entertainment,to be excited by the music and singing,they expect a reasonable level of performance.A badly sung twenty verse Folk Song is not going to promote the club,the music or the performer and certainly not excite a young punter on his first visit.I do not know you Jim and I do not expect you to know me ,but please consider the many years of Folk Club visits you and I have done and I would be very surprised if you have never heard a twenty verse dirge,because I have many times.As I made a point of saying some would find it of interest and just because I do not enjoy this aspect of folk music does not mean that I dislike Traditional Music in total.If the word dirge annoys you please accept my apologies and it will not alter the pint I owe you if you come down The George. I have just completed the History of the English Concertina from about 1850 to the present day(English International)a three CD collection due out in about ten days ,so I am getting on with it Jim not sitting back and complaining. Al |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: GUEST Date: 07 Aug 08 - 01:46 PM 'If is folk music, C-F-G, with an Em or Am thrown is gets a bit worn out and boring.6-2-5-1, changes are pretty predictable, too...' sorry for asking, but what's a 6-2-5-1 change? |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Roger in Baltimore Date: 07 Aug 08 - 12:56 PM Stringsinger mentioned House Concerts. That seems to be what has shattered some of the "Folk Clubs" in the Baltimore-Washington area. They present a performer in a usually comfortable venue at a reasonable price. The audience is attentive and usually no PA is required. Like many of the clubs, they only present once a month. However, there seems to be a plethora of them so weekly attendance is not impossible. There is only a limited audience in any area and it can only be divided up in limited ways. As House Concerts grew, other venues shrank. It would appear that most performers are making the same amount of money per night as they did at the clubs. The drawback to House Concerts is that it is difficult for "new" people to find out about them. Advertising is limited. Roger in Baltimore (well, Virginia, now) |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 07 Aug 08 - 12:42 PM If you want to see a good example of 'traditional' music re-done(along with other stuff not so traditional), then I suggest taking another good hard look at Celtic Woman! Great arrangements and excellent, superb sound engineering...with incredibly talented performing. And don't even bother with the 'purist' nonsense.we've heard all that before....We have an expression for purist, in the studio...when the refuse to use a digital tuner,,"You can ALWAYS tell who the 'purists' are..they're always out of tune" |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: TheSnail Date: 07 Aug 08 - 12:39 PM Pip Radish Fair point, but I think 'dirge' was unfortunate Perhaps so. I'd better let Alan answer for himself but to dismiss him as someone who "neither understood nor liked folk music" was well out of order. |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Phil Edwards Date: 07 Aug 08 - 12:27 PM [Alan's] comment was made in the context of what would appeal to a teenager; the immediacy of a session compared to the more thoughtful atmosphere of a folk club Fair point, but I think 'dirge' was unfortunate, particularly coupled with 'might appeal to a folk enthusiast'. I've been bored once or twice at a folk club (Simple Twist of Fate doesn't seem to go on half that long on record) but never by traditional material - on the contrary, I've heard electrifying renditions of Lord Bateman, Tam Lin and one of the longer variants of Sir Patrick Spens. These songs are good music, not ethnographic curiosities. Give them space and a halfway decent performance, and they'll go on finding new ears. |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: TheSnail Date: 07 Aug 08 - 11:45 AM And another thing - Earlier you said - If you want to see how traditional forms can be used to create new, relevant and extremely entertaining songs, have a look at 'Sing Out', the collection of old and new protest songs edited by Fintan Vallely, or Con 'Fada' O'Driscoll's 'The Spoons Murder' - streets ahead of anything I've come across being written in the UK nowadays. I think you've alread mentioned Graeme Miles and Leon Rosselson elsewhere. How about - Keith Marsden, Dave Webber, Mike O'Connor, John Connolly, Barry Temple, Brian Ingham, Brian Bedford, Mick Ryan, Graham Moore... |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: TheSnail Date: 07 Aug 08 - 11:39 AM I give up on you Jim. If you are determined to be miserable, there is nothing anyone can do about it. One thing I must take you up on though. A couple of posts back you said - Yes, the clubs did fall into the hands of people who neither understood nor liked folk music - this from a couple of postings up from this one "A twenty verse dirge ,interesting perhaps to a folk enthusiast.....". If you think Alan Day is somebody who neither understands nor likes folk music, you really are demonstrating how out of touch you are. Alan is primarily a dance musician and has done huge amounts to promote traditional music and deserves more respect. Apart from that, his comment was made in the context of what would appeal to a teenager; the immediacy of a session compared to the more thoughtful atmosphere of a folk club. Unfortunately, you are determined to cling to every scrap of evidence that seems to prove your doom laden case while dismissing experiences that don't fit as "complacent". |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: GUEST,Peace Date: 07 Aug 08 - 11:13 AM Trad music in clubs will likely begin to die unless it shares the stage with other musics, imo. People tend to like good music regardless its genre. The key is 'good'. Fewer and fewer will even listen to trad unless it is seen as an important music worthy of respect and to a degree veneration. If people are so narrow minded as to think of trad as a sacrosanct place rather than a respected member of a great art, then trad is doomed. |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 07 Aug 08 - 11:08 AM If is folk music, C-F-G, with an Em or Am thrown is gets a bit worn out and boring.6-2-5-1, changes are pretty predictable, too...Try something creative, and leave the whining out of the lyrics...and do, oh please do, get hip to mixing the sound, better than 'just louder'... Then do a blitz of open Mikes and any place you can get exposure(assuming that you do your homework, and bring some NEW element to your audiences. Traditional and folk music can be 'slicked' up a bit, without sacrificing anything. The fact audiences aren't coming, might just be your clue. "If you don't like getting what you're getting, stop doing what you're doing to get it." Go for whatever you want, the make necessary changes and homework to get it. |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Aug 08 - 10:14 AM Cap'n I don't want clubs where only traditional music is accepted (haven't seen one of them since the 60s and never frequented them then) - it would be self defeating and condemn the music into the history books. I do believe that clubs which call themselves 'folk' should bear some resemblance to folk music - too often, in my experience, they don't. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: The Sandman Date: 07 Aug 08 - 09:14 AM Jim, you are over pessimistic.there have always been clubs[since 1966to my knowledge] like the one DAVE describes,there have been clubs where only traditional music was accepted,and[broad church] clubs where traditional music,singer songwriters,ragtimehave all been accepted.http://www.dickmiles.com |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Dave Sutherland Date: 07 Aug 08 - 08:16 AM In sympathy with Jim I have to say that a few years ago I visited a club in Leicestershire and at the end of the evening while chatting to the organiser he asked who our guest was on the following Sunday. When I told him John Kirkpatrick he said "Oh yes, your club is a bit err, err (as if he couldn't bring himself to say the word traditional) "Actually it's very err, err" I told him "Yes, that doesn't go down here" he answered and since I had not heard a folk song (the Bushbury Mountain Daredevils had been the guests on the night and they only had two floor singers as support)all night in his club I was not particularly surprised. The worst thing was that when Roy Harris rang me a few months later to ask if I could run him to the club as he was booked there and what was the club like, I had to relate the same story to him! |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Aug 08 - 03:11 AM Bryan, "But you DO have a problem accepting that there is anything going on that you would call folk music." No I don't - I know there are still some clubs; my point is that there are not enough nationally for its survival as a performing art. My point about the Beatles evening (2 years ago - and things haven't changed there) is that if a folk club can move that far away from folk music then the term has lost its meaning. Nor are there enough even to argue for facilities for its survival in archived form. There is nothing resembling a comprehensive archive in the UK. EFDSS and the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library are on a permanent hand-to-mouth existence and constantly under threat of closure. The nearest thing to a national archive in the UK is part of The National Sound Archive at the British Library, which several of us worked to develop some years ago with some limited success with their 'Bright Golden Store' project, but this seems now to have dried up. "Things might have changed." My information is not thirty years old - it is pretty well up to date. Please tell me it is wrong and that the clubs are thriving - what I am getting is an increased hostility to folk music - finger-in-ear, boring, "twenty verse dirges", irrelevant...... "You are using your own ignorance as evidence." OK - tell me of publications matching the two I mentioned - I may have missed them. It may well be that I am being over-pessimistic - I sincerely hope that is the case. On the other hand, it might be that you are being complacent because your own club is doing well. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Ebbie Date: 06 Aug 08 - 07:55 PM "...living working artists..." weelittledrummer That reminds me, Al. Juneau Alaska's Buddy Tabor introduces himself as "one of the world's living singer songwriters". :) |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Stringsinger Date: 06 Aug 08 - 05:50 PM I am intrigued with the discussion about traditional music in the folk clubs. There is a way of learning about traditional singing styles and presentation and it requires some study. Much of the traditional music itself can't be relegated to print so that any dating of publication of this music can't be relied upon as a start of any song. Only composed songs or song variants that have been attributed to certain people have a copyright date. As to the singing styles, much of the traditional music was not meant for clubs or the concert stage. Much of it has to be heard in its own environment. This means you have to do some leg work. You have to go to where it was originally sung in a cultural setting. When you transfer this type of performance (an "informant" in his/her habitat) to the concert or club stage, the music changes. Singing for example a sea chantey onstage will not recreate the use of that song for the work. When music becomes a performance onstage, it is a different entity than when it comes out of a cultural environment. The values for performance change it for one thing. People want to be entertained so they have a way of expecting what that is. A lot of musical material enters the ring, so to speak, and must often defeat that which is considered to some without the context to be boring. I am able to enjoy an old ballad by an untrained singer if I know the context, background and the references of the text. This is not easily communicated to an "audience". In this way, Jim Carroll has a point. Frank |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 06 Aug 08 - 04:16 PM does it really matter what we all believe, as long as it isn't used to disrupt the careers of serious artists? in the last analysis the living working artists are our most precious resource. |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: TheSnail Date: 06 Aug 08 - 04:06 PM Jim Carroll Snail (hate these names - always seems offensive), I quite like being TheSnail. If it makes you feel more comfortable, call me Bryan. I have no problem whatever accepting your assessment of the club scene in your part of the world. Nor do I have any problem accepting that there are other clubs, like Teesside, flourishing as well as those in Lewes. But you DO have a problem accepting that there is anything going on that you would call folk music. You seem obsessed with the fact that a friend once told you that a folk club somewhere in the north of England once had an evening of Beatles songs. From that you seem to conclude that "real" folk music is extinct in the land. Are you saying that the state you outlined is the case for the rest of the clubs No, of course I'm not. I don't know what's happening elsewhere but, unlike you, I don't extrapolate from limited experience. I know what's happening in my neck of the woods and I know that it doesn't fit with your sweeping condemnation. In the late 70s, early 80s the club scene began to decline. Jim...that was thirty years ago. Things might have changed. If you get all your information at second hand, you'll never know. From an earlier post - Con 'Fada' O'Driscoll's 'The Spoons Murder' - streets ahead of anything I've come across being written in the UK nowadays. "anything I've come across" - You are using your own ignorance as evidence. The music you love is alive and well in south east England and, I suspect, in other areas as well. It just seems to suit your self-imposed martyrdom to believe it isn't. |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: GUEST,Arthur Mow Date: 06 Aug 08 - 03:17 PM Jim Carroll >>Apart from the confusion which appears to reign on the British club scene, many of the problems are obviously down to the fact that many of the clubs have fallen into the hands of people who neither like nor understand folk song. >>Youngsters are coming to folk music here in Ireland in enough numbers to guarantee it will still be played by the next two generations. It hasn't happened to the same extent yet with singing... I always thought that you had put across the view countless times that folk clubs had been destroyed by their moving away from traditional SONG. You now appear to be saying that the future of folk music is secured for the coming generations (in Ireland at least) by the MUSIC not by song and that seems a fundamental shift in position. Perhaps you've been nobbled. |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Aug 08 - 02:57 PM " .........mmmmmmmaybe I shouldn't ask what're "real 'folk songs' "?" Dunt esk Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Alan Day Date: 06 Aug 08 - 11:30 AM Morris sides can generate a wonderful atmosphere from the enthusiasm of their singing and members joining the chorus. I have had many excellent nights at pubs or folk clubs who put them on as an act. I went to watch Hartley Morris Men recently and it was a marvelous evening. Al |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:15 AM All I meant is that you could have a hundred or two hundred people there and the atmosphere might seem a bit sterile - but you could have just a few people and it could be quite nice. I've certainly been to concerts like that. Excellent music - but somehow the room wasn't charged with atmosphere. The atmosphere is definitely one of the components of folksong. A bit like phlogiston that the old alchemists said that you needed to produce gold. You can't quantify folkmusic. Its a qualitative thing, I believe. Although some of it I suspect is down to the gravitas and experience that the performer brings to his task. |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Mr Happy Date: 06 Aug 08 - 08:46 AM .........mmmmmmmaybe I shouldn't ask what're "real 'folk songs' "? |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 06 Aug 08 - 08:37 AM In a small pub - 10 can be a good audience, probably less. Its this business of sustaining a standing army of pro singers that means you need the numbers. |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Phil Edwards Date: 06 Aug 08 - 07:05 AM I think pulling in around 30 week after week is pretty good, particularly in what we laughingly call summer (and on the back of absolutely no advertising). It's coming up to six years old now, & it's pretty well established as a local institution - and a stop on the Manchester 'acoustic' circuit. Where the club has perhaps fallen down is in building an *audience* - there are only about a dozen regular non-playing punters, and most of them have been with us from the start. But arguably that's a feature, not a bug - it works pretty well as a club that's mainly for performers. Apart from anything else, if we were getting 100 every week we'd need a bigger room. (We had that many for our first Dylan night. Brilliant atmosphere, you just couldn't breathe.) |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Alan Day Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:53 AM That's the one Jim.The sessions are the first Monday in every month unless it is a Bank Holiday and then it is the following week. I am not there every Month as I live a good distance away, but I find the journey worth while to play with like minded musicians . Some good some not so good, but all are welcome. As I stressed in is not a sing around had it have been so then I would have gone around the pub asking for singers.A music session is open to all to start a tune they like, when there is a gap in playing. The fact that we have there on a regular basis approx twenty musicians playing a variety of instruments on a regular basis shows the popularity of the session.We do have the occasional loud yuppies, the odd birthday party to play over and the odd grumpy person but in general it is a good fun evening. Al |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Banjiman Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:22 AM Pip, Do you think this is a "good" audience or would you expect more? Is it shrinking? We have a good mixture of trad/ trad sounding and a small amount of more contemporary singer/ songwriter stuff (of the "right" sort....I like to think)at KFFC. BTW...... a fair smattering of younger audience at the Woodlark which was good! Paul |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Phil Edwards Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:15 AM Chorlton FC: 15-20 in a bad week, 30+ usually & 40-50 on a good week. The club's on a bit of a roll at the moment, albeit without much traditional music being played. |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Banjiman Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:07 AM Do we have any thoughts as to what makes a "good" audience (numbers not personality!)? We've played at 2 folk clubs over a long weekend (Gainsborough on Friday and a support slot at The Woodlark near Nottingham on Monday). These are both good clubs in smallish rooms and both were pretty near capacity..... 30 odd at both. Talking to my Mum, her memory is of "hundreds" at the old Lincoln Folk Club at The Turk's Head back in the 60s and 70s (I'm too young to be able to validate this)......we usually get between 35 and 65 at the club we run in North Yorkshire....... What are peoples expectations for folk event audiences (I don't mean to make this UK Folk Club specific but it is the examples I have knowledge of)? Thanks Paul |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: GUEST, Mr Grumpy Date: 06 Aug 08 - 05:01 AM My my, pot, kettle. As I said I went in several times over last winter. The last time I went would have been either Mon 4 Feb or possibly Mon 7th April (it's a "first Monday" event, isn't it?). If those are not the dates when you saw someone diss the bar-staff (it is plausible, they are rubbish) youe apology will oblige. In any event, to return to the question. Where did the audience go? You just told it to leave. |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Aug 08 - 04:52 AM Alan, Is that The George in Southwark - the most beautiful pub in the world? Used to go there regularly - in those days it was staffed by a lovely Australian girl doing The Grand Tour. I commented one night what a beautiful pub it was and received the reply "It's like working in a ******* museum". We were in there with the late Tom Munnelly and his wife Annette; when he asked for a "glass" (common in Ireland for a half-pint) she replied "we don't serve it in ******* buckets love" - good times! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Alan Day Date: 06 Aug 08 - 03:52 AM The George Session takes place in a large room in one of the oldest parts of this Historic pub. The room is open to the public and during the evening has visitors from all over the World popping in and out on the London Historic Pub tour to hear the music, The Session is a mixture of French English and Breton music and the musicians range from new to some players who have been members of past, or recent well known bands. There is the occasional song, but it is a music session not a sing around. If however someone wishes to sing there are no rules to prevent it. We do not have someone at the door interviewing each person that enters asking them if they want to sing.The session ,like all sessions depends on who turns up on the night. It is probably a coincidence, but I noticed someone recently having a row with a poor girl behind the counter and thought how rude that person was and out of order.He then proceeded to the session. Grumpy I can accept,but rudeness I cannot ,if it was you then please take yourself and your singing elsewhere. Al |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Aug 08 - 03:24 AM Snail (hate these names - always seems offensive), I have no problem whatever accepting your assessment of the club scene in your part of the world. Lewes always had a reputation for good folk music; when Pat was doing the bookings for the Singers Club she was often in contact with the club there in order to share guests on tour. A few years ago a bunch of people from this town spent a long week-end there listening to and playing music - had a whale of a time. (Been meaning to apologise for the incident - Nurse Ratchett was on holiday so they didn't get their medication and managed to slip under the wire!!) Nor do I have any problem accepting that there are other clubs, like Teesside, flourishing as well as those in Lewes. Are you saying that the state you outlined is the case for the rest of the clubs (I desperately want this to be the case - I have no desire to slag off clubs; they were my introduction to folk music and they gave be decades of pleasure and inspiration) - if so, what is this (and other threads in similar vein) all about? You are right of course - I am not fully in touch with what is happening in the English clubs nowadays. We moved to Ireland nearly ten years ago; since then I have had to rely on the handful of visits I have made to the UK, magazines such as The Living Tradition and fRoots, friends who are still involved in the UK scene and forums such as this one for my information. Because of this, in many ways my outlook on the club scene is far wider than it was when I was involved in singing and running clubs - albeit second-hand. The overall impression I am left with is one of mess, poor health and lack of direction. In the late 70s, early 80s the club scene began to decline. This was documented quite well in the then leading folk magazine 'Folk Review' first by an article by editor Fed Woods (I think) entitled 'Crap Begets Crap', then by the correspondence which followed. The decline was put down to a variety of causes, noisy, inattentively audiences, bad singing - even passive smoking. A number of correspondents commented "crisis, what crisis?" -shortly afterwards the number of clubs halved and there was a massive exodus away from the scene - I was part of that exodus. As far as I was concerned, the main problem was that it became virtually impossible to go to a 'folk' club to listen to an evening of 'folk' or 'folk related' songs. We were being fed a mish-mash of music-hall, Victorian parlour ballads, early pop songs, and newly composed songs which were none of these, nor bore any relation to folk song proper - in short, we could no longer be guaranteed the type of music we wanted to listen to. Much of what we heard was performed indifferently - even badly, and totally lacked any joy or understanding. Yes, the clubs did fall into the hands of people who neither understood nor liked folk music - this from a couple of postings up from this one "A twenty verse dirge ,interesting perhaps to a folk enthusiast.....". Those of us who commented on the situation were branded 'finger-in-ear', 'purist', 'folk-police' (or 'folk-fascists'). We didn't go back to the clubs - some of us continued to work on different aspects of folk song, others drifted away completely. Now it seems that even the 'dictionary re-writers' who took over the scene are deserting the sinking ship - and the same feeble excuses are being proffered. For me, the problem is plain, even if the solution is not simple. In order to bring in new blood, or even re-attract the old, clubs have to specialise - audiences need to know what they are going to hear if they are going to get up off their bums and traipse along to a folk club. What is presented has to be performed well enough not to be embarrassing - folk music is worth the effort of working on the songs so that the singer, at the very least, stays in tune, remembers the words and gives the impression that he or she understands and enjoys what they are doing (I've been to numerous clubs where this has patently not been the case). The singers performing on a particular night need to be aware of their fellow performers to ascertain that the presented repertoire is varied and contrasting, so that the songs don't all sound the same. A little imagination with the programming, so that the impression is not that the singers attending haven't just turned up unprepared (feature evenings worked very well in the clubs I was attended)..... and a whole host of other little things can make the difference between an interesting and enjoyable evening and a dull one. For me, the best clubs are those with a handful of strong residents and an occasional guest - that's what makes a club a club and gives it continuity. I'd like to dispel some of the misinformation about the Irish scene - but this is getting far to long - so, perhaps another time. Enough to say that fifteen or so years ago the Irish music establishment wouldn't have given traditional music the steam from their piss, let alone the money and respect they are giving it now - the situation has been turned round by a handful of dedicated individuals and a great deal of thought and hard work. I believe the same is possible for the UK, but it won't be done by castigating the folk clubs who have the 'short-sightedness' to put on real 'folk songs' at their 'folk' clubs. Jim Carroll PS WLD We did all of our collecting in Travellers caravans, and in the homes of farmers and fishermen.. etc; not in folk clubs. Cap'n "I refuse to comment on Jim Carroll" For which I will be eternally grateful - let's keep it like that. |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 05 Aug 08 - 07:54 PM yeh we disagree, so what.....a divergence of opinion. It happens. Neither of us see it as a reason for being rude and unpleasant to each other. Your great insights are witheld from us. Who knows perhaps we would disagree with you - maybe even be a little bitchy, if we thought you had any sense of humour. as for being out of touch - I really don't think so. He knows and sees stuff - he just has a different opinion. My opinion is the correct one of course - just in case you were wondering. |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Phil Edwards Date: 05 Aug 08 - 06:27 PM A twenty verse dirge ,interesting perhaps to a folk enthusiast is hardly going to excite a teenager,whereas a session will. I'd agree that "session" and "folk club" are at opposite extremes (with "singaround" somewhere in between), but I'd define them a bit differently. "Session" for me equals 'practise for weeks beforehand but still trip up between the A repeat and the B section of your favourite tune, and sit there feeling like an idiot for the rest of the evening'. (At least, that's what I'd be afraid of.) Whereas "folk club" (or rather "singers' night") for me equals 'get up and sing your heart out'. I must admit, I've hardly ever experienced (or even been part of) a non-performing audience for folk music. I've got a certain amount of sympathy for the position the EFDSS argued at the time of the licensing act - that folk music should be exempted on the grounds that it's not entertainment. Go to a singaround - or a session - and you'll be hard put to see anyone who's sitting there just spectating and being entertained: there's something very enjoyable happening, but everyone there is part of making it happen. If I had a singaround to go to every week, I don't think I'd feel the lack of an audience. |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: GUEST, Mr Grumpy Date: 05 Aug 08 - 06:03 PM Well, I've popped into the George several times. No song. No singers. No-one noticing a repeat attendee who might want to sing. Welcome? My arse. Some pretty poor players. Very Euro-centrique. Very little Anglicana - whatever played upon. And why on earth might teenagers not want to sing? Who is singing their lungs up at karaoke? |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Alan Day Date: 05 Aug 08 - 05:45 PM I was at The George Session nr London Bridge on Monday Night,as most of the usual musicians were away at festivals it is usually the quietest night of the year.even so we had about six of us there, At the end of the evening three young lads asked if they could play at the next session as they enjoyed their evening so much.So the music attracts young players,not all of course as it comes down to personal choice.They get in for nothing they are made welcome and they want to join in and participate. With Folk Clubs ,firstly most assume that youngsters know what Folk Clubs are,(a typical salesman mistake,assuming everyone knows about your product and no sales talk is necessary )secondly if they do go into a Folk Club are we providing entertainment for youngsters? A twenty verse dirge ,interesting perhaps to a folk enthusiast is hardly going to excite a teenager,whereas a session will. Al |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: Stringsinger Date: 05 Aug 08 - 04:11 PM Ron, the idea that folk music of today has become a specific community is very interesting and true. It does meld people together who like to play and sing. In earlier times, it was this kind of environment that spawned the so-called "traditional" culture-based folksong and that's why we know about it today. Nowadays, people are hungry for a community-based musical experience. I don't personally care for a pub or bar setting but perhaps that's because it's different in the States then in the UK. Here, music in a bar becomes loud, and presented only to drunks who don't care about it. The pub has a different tradition it seems in the UK. Here, the house concert seems to be the most reasonable approach to melding communities and potential audiences. After a concert, a jam session can occur or the chairs can be moved aside for a contra or square dance. It seems to me that the solo performer arises out of this environment and finds an appreciative support. It's not American Idol which stresses an individual gymnastic show-biz approach to singing. I like the concept of the celidh or ceili (formerly the "visit") where people participate in the entertainment through offerings of tunes, readings, poetry, and social dancing (not the show oriented "step-dancing" but the "home dances"). The song material can range from popular to traditional and if there is a healthy balance struck between solo performance and group participation, the Frank |
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Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone? From: The Sandman Date: 05 Aug 08 - 02:57 PM why are sessions attracting young people?is it because they cost nothing apart from a few pints,or is it because they dont want to learn the art of performing and stage craft,or is it that they want to participate instrumentally,but not vocally ,or is it acombination of all these things. I refuse to comment on Jim Carroll.Dick Miles |
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