BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 04:34 PM

Hmmm....so the logic gets a little convoluted at this point. Guest,Amos (29MAR05 - 10:34am ..if that was really you) claims a name makes communication better, but he can recognize an anonymous poster fromhis/her style anyway, so - the name point is rather moot, don't you think?

If Amos already knows who I am, tagging these posts with a moniker is just a waste of keystrokes, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 04:15 PM

MG is a fake. He is a thirty year old white male. He'll be 31 in June.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: Ralphie
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 04:11 PM

Americans.....Huh!

If they didn't exist, you'd have to invent them.

Now people...time to sleep.

I promise we'll resume again tomorrow

Sleep Well

Ralphie

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: Amos
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 03:52 PM

Nope, yer right. Cain't figger it for the life o'me!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 03:36 PM

One Guest said:

"I don't want people to know my identity, and I don't want to know yours. I don't care if you believe you can recognize me from my style or not, because I don't care if people recognize me, my style, any personal information I have or have not divulged in this forum, etc.

I just plain don't care. I don't value any relationships here, because I haven't got any relationships here, and I don't want any relationships with anyone here. I'm the same way in the other forums I frequent. For me, online chat isn't about developing relationships. Period."

clinton Hammond said:

"Not everyone uses this place like you do."

And that right there is one of the most important lessons every Mudcatter needs to understand... "


This is where it's at for me folks. I am a folk, country, and bluegrass musician who was drawn to this site. Most of the politics here am somewhere between 0 and 180 degrees from and I have no problem telling you so with impact. I don't come here for relationships and ass kissing and I have successfully separated real life from this and other Internet forums.

If you don't want to, fine with me, but I don't have to conform to what you conceive as a perfect world because it just isn't. I think Bush Bashers, droll English folk singers, and fat, bearded over-the-hill American folk singers suck.

But there are other types here who don't.

Sorry, I never claimed my opinion was humble. Nope, I am not Joe's alter ego.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 02:49 PM

Yes Guest at 2:22. He probably thinks you're just pretty swave for such a neat posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: Peace
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 02:31 PM

"Dealing with Flamers and Trolls"

Give 'em a wee kiss on the cheek, pat on the bum and quarter to make a phone call.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 02:22 PM

Betcha Amos cain't reckanize me. Betcha he'd be the furst t' admit it, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 02:08 PM

But the best part of all this is trippin' with Amos, who thinks he can recognize all us anon guests!

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: Amos
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 01:36 PM

You may wish it were so, Guest, but like a ship with her name painted over, you have other signatures which give you away -- the sound you make passing through these waters is different than other vessels, as any good sonarman can tell you! :D


A

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 01:23 PM

Amos has been having a reasonably intelligent and meaningful exchange without knowing anything about the "identity" of the poster behind the exchanges. I don't see how tagging these exchanges with a "name" other than GUEST would make them "better." (GUEST,Amos 29MAR05 10:34am). More intimate, perhaps. Of what value is it to a discussion to know that a certain contributor's favorite color is blue, for example? It adds nothing to the discussion. It just makes the poster a little more familiar to the reader.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 01:20 PM

100 plus... I see 200+ in music alone!

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 01:15 PM

Oh and if anyone did want to try Ebbie's suggestion and couldn't run their own system, I found this a couple of weeks ago and suggested it to someone else who was running a folk related board that was cluttered with adverts.

I don't know how he does it but he appears to be hosting 100 plus boards on his own equipment and relies on donations to keep running. There is no charge and no ads and phpbb is a pretty good system.

There has been a bit of downtime lately as a new server has been installed but at the moment, I would assume other than that, he is reliable.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 01:08 PM

"Not everyone uses this place like you do."

And that right there is one of the most important lessons every Mudcatter needs to understand...

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 01:03 PM

McGrath won't be reading this either. How many times can he whinge on about nameless guests. Kerist. I scroll past his posts in the hope I will avoid his constant Meldrewishness on the anon topic.

Get over it man. Not everyone uses this place like you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST,Ebbie
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 12:53 PM

In my experience, this qualifies as an extra long downtime- that is, by the front door. But since we can come in by means of an alternate door, I don't see what the problem is. I understand that in using this entrance it is easy to forget to sign one's name- hey, I forget most of the time- and we don't have access to PMs and the Chatroom but we are in and communicating. In the past, I went through acute withdrawal pangs, obsessively checking to see if maybe, just maybe it had come back. Now I am sanguine.

I truly do think that those of us who cannot live with the Cat's vagaries should think of opening and maintaining their own forum. I would check it out routinely- as I do the Annexe- and I think a lot of us would.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 12:38 PM

..and some people answered, but that must've been about the time you quit reading posts from nameless GUESTs.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 12:33 PM

How can you tell so effortlessly whether a post coming from a nameless GUEST emanates from a he she and it or a they, Amos?

I sometimes wondered whether there was some other motivation to the practice than the wish to get up the noise of other people, and even asked on occasion. That was when I read the posts involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST,CAH
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 11:49 AM

"the back-door condition of the Mudcat is an aberration"

Bull

"my right is to consider it obsessive and neurotic"
Some say the same about you mate...

:-P heh

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST,John Hardly
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 11:33 AM

I just plain don't care. I don't value any relationships here, because I haven't got any relationships here, and I don't want any relationships with anyone here. I'm the same way in the other forums I frequent. For me, online chat isn't about developing relationships. Period.

I'm shocked, shocked, I tell you!

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 10:34 AM

It should be obvious that the back-door condition of the Mudcat is an aberration, not the case in point.

If the Mudcat were differently designed, all this trash-talk would be different, and if pigs flew...

Guest consistently denies and refuses the assertion that communication with a known source is better communication than trying to penetrate the generalized stupor of obsessive anonymity.

Obviously, a profound difference of opinion exists on that score; additionally she has a principled objection to having an identitiy; she not only wants the privelege of being anonymous, she wants the privilege of being anybody, effectively being invisible while still issuing her tomes of analysis and apparently expecting anyone else to care what they say without some viewpoint to include in the understanding.

In my world view all communication has a source, disguised or otherwise, and that source is part and parcel of the communication, and part of the truth. Guest's approach leaves that piece of the truth absent, requiring the reader to take on the burden of understanding adulterated with the false nature of generalized source. This is a form of metaphysical falsification which, to my view, makes the dialogue different, worse and more difficult. It makes the messages unpalatable from the outset each time she posts.

But it is certainly her right. Especially under our current architecture.

And my right is to consider it obsessive and neurotic. Which I do.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 10:18 AM

I wasn't trying to copy anyone's style, rum. It remains to be seen whether that can be done, granted.   

Amos' statement was paradoxical under the circumstances, as proved by the 7:59am post, and the frequent times Mudcat is cookieless/down.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 09:41 AM

Clearly, we've all noticed that in Mudcat there is one set of rules for Max, Joe, and the clown clones making personal attacks upon whomever they wish...

and the rest of the forum.

Except Martin Gibson, of course. He seems to hold a special place in the heart of Joe Offer. Perhaps Martin is really Joe's alter ego?

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 09:38 AM

He didn't actually accuse you of making personal attacks Shambles. And you don't. He just said the same rules apply to everyone.

I had always thought that the 'rules' did apply to everyone but Mick has accused me - at one time or another - of just about everything. *Smiles*

Instead of implications and threats such as this being posted - it would be good to see some credit given to those that have managed for so long - to do what some have found so difficult.

Those that have been setting the positive example on our forum of not mounting and encouraging abusive personal attacks or responding in kind to obvious provocation - will welcome all later converts to the cause with open arms. From time to time however - they may be tempted to point out when or where our freshly enlightened ones stray from the path.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST,rumanci
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 09:28 AM

To Guest, Amos 7:59 a.m.
maybe not - if you choose to hide behind somebody else's name but the point is that the style, the phrasing, and the vocabulary let alone the content are mostly unique to their source - much tougher to copy that isn't it ? - as you've just proved !
rum

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 09:26 AM

Strange how some personal attacks still slip through the net, but only when they apply to certain people.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 09:22 AM

He didn't actually accuse you of making personal attacks Shambles. And you don't. He just said the same rules apply to everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 09:06 AM

As a clone, I am supposed to delete personal attacks. Anytime anyone uses personal attacks in a post, I will delete it. Of course that means that I will honor the same rules, regardless of whether it is Shambles, MG, whomever.

Perhaps before you start - you could provide some evidence of any past abusive personal attacks by me upon anyone or of examples where I have responded in kind - to abusive personal attacks upon me or to any other obvious provocation?

And before you impose any new deletions - you could go back a delete all the many abusive personal attacks that you (Joe, Catspaw etc) have made upon me and others? This should keep you busy for a while.

Good job that most of us do still just about manage to retain a sense of humour.....

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 07:59 AM

"Meretricious argumentation--the probability of Jerry Rasmussen or myself or Mick or Azizi being the author of posts bearing our respective names is very high."

Really? When Mudcat is down and you come in through the back door, it isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 06:10 AM

I suspect in some cases they may be people who feel constrained in their daily life to be all agreeable and affable and courteous, and feel a need to have somewhere to put off the mask and let out the unpleasantness that builds up.

Which would be balanced maybe by other people for whom it's the other way round.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST,Partridge
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 04:36 AM

Some people are so full of their own self importance. I feel a little sad for them. Its not the way to win friends and influence people. Its almost as if they want to be disliked - why is that? I really don't know

Pat x

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 01:48 AM

Is any other message board you visited run by a family man from his basement for no monetary gain?

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 11:51 PM

Thanks, Art! I am honored.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 10:56 PM

" I've never come across a message board which is a patch of the Mudcat"

I visit ALL kinds of MB that leave this place sucking wind... if it wasn't for the occasional ON Topic Thread, and some of the people here, this place, with it's crappy hard/software, and it's idiotic 'anti-moderation' stance could nibble my bum...

We need FolkAlley.com to host a message board, and this place'll dry up like a dog turd in the hot sun...

For instance, no other message board I visit was DOWN all damn day today...

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 09:30 PM

Folks, I've really enjoyed Amos' CD. Good job-!--And mine will go out to you soon---probably tomorrow.

Thanks again!!

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST,MvcGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 06:41 PM

what is the difference between a Guest and a person who uses a made up name?" said kendall up there.

"Unnamed Guest" was what I said.   Right now I'm posting as a GUEST because I had to come in through a Mudcat backdoor, because the front door wouldn't open, as sometimes happens.

When people come in as an unnamed GUEST, without any kind of label, they are in effect using the same name that has been used by some really very nasty posters indeed at one time and another - just click on the GUEST at the head of a post and have a look. Nasty enough that I personally have decided that I'm ignoring them, the way I would a tiny handful of other names. In the process no doubt I miss posts by people who aren't like that, but have some reason of their own for doing it. That's a shame.

........................

"any other message board worth its salt out here in the world wide waste is moderated... Why not mudcat?" - Clinton Hammond.

I've never come across a message board which is a patch of the Mudcat, and I've looked. The decision to do without "moderating" - or rather, to have as little as can be managed (even if the Shambles might dispute that) is, I am sure, one of the crucial reasons for this.

And if there really are these message boards out there which manange to be as good as the Mudcat can be at its best, but with moderating that doesn't mess with that, let's be having them.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST,Regular sans cookie
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 06:35 PM

Strangely enough, it#s really easy to 'DNR' until the remark made is about you.

tuff shit guests, it ain't gonna make me leave in a snit, it just shows you up to be the morons you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST, GEST
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 06:28 PM

A definitive work on the subject: The Subtle Art Of Trolling. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 04:47 PM

Thank you Guest 4:33! Exactly my point. I work in a school with 2200 students, have wonderful friends and family in my 3D life.

Amos--ROTFLMAO.

Whatever, dude!

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 04:43 PM

That you do or do not care is not the point. You pretend to be communicating while clearly preferring to conduct one-ended diatribes.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 04:33 PM

You don't go through the hardships of an ocean voyage to make friends...

You can make friends at home!

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 03:56 PM

But Amos, I don't care who Member X is, I don't care what Member X's posting history is, and I don't value what Member X says more than any other person at this website.

For those of us who value the content of the post, and not our personal emotional reaction/relationship to the poster, that is all that matters to us.

We fully understand many members and guests with consistent identities come here because they have personal relationships with other posters who use this forum. That's fine for you. But it isn't for me.

I don't want people to know my identity, and I don't want to know yours. I don't care if you believe you can recognize me from my style or not, because I don't care if people recognize me, my style, any personal information I have or have not divulged in this forum, etc.

I just plain don't care. I don't value any relationships here, because I haven't got any relationships here, and I don't want any relationships with anyone here. I'm the same way in the other forums I frequent. For me, online chat isn't about developing relationships. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 03:34 PM

Meretricious argumentation--the probability of Jerry Rasmussen or myself or Mick or Azizi being the author of posts bearing our respective names is very high. The probability of anyone knowing who you are in any sense of the word is very low. The fabric of communication is made stronger by certainties that a communication session with a known being is occurring. Usually I can tell who you are from your style but that's much less reliable.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 02:13 PM

Well, evidently some people value accountability over content. They want to know if the person who directed them to the lyrics for a particular song in one post is the same person who said "Screw you" in the next. So what if it is? To some people it matters. It's a value decision - one which people obviously have a right to exercise.

Seems to me like a moot point though, with all the security vulnerabilities, identity theft etc. A reader can't be 100% sure that a member who has an established moniker and a history attached to it is who he/she says he/she is, so to me it doesn't matter whether a poster has a name or not. What matters to me is if the content of the post is useful. If it says "Screw you," I exercise my value judgement and ignore it.

Continuity can be maintained any number of ways, not the least of which is by referring to the post with a date/time stamp, which I find a lot less confusing and cumbersome than trying to keep up with the posting history of member X.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 09:59 AM

Guest 8:57 is right,this should be a place to exchange ideas, not some big happy family.

I enjoy reading posts from folks of all persuasions, and if I dont agree with them I write back and offer my ideas.

It would be a pretty boring place without the "bad boys"...and girls, so lets leave things as they are.
I,ve found that even the meanest sounding poster can show his or her better side with a bit of effort on our part.

I'm surprised at McGrath having a list of people he avoids..Whats the point?...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 09:01 AM

That was not the "line crossed" in the post of mine that a clone deemed "delete-worthy". I didn't make a personal attack. You know me better than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 08:57 AM

John, there is absolutely no problem with heated discussion of a topic. In fact, that is a good thing. For me, the line gets crossed when it turns into a personal attack. I have crossed that line myself, and I regret it. It comes when one gets so disgusted with the same inane question over and over, or the horrible personal comments. But that is no excuse. One should not resort to this stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 08:57 AM

Some named posters or posts with a name contribute no relevant or pertinent information that I can use, but it doesn't stop me from reading their posts because in the future that same named contributor may write something useful. I'm reading for content, not identity. I couldn't care less who writes it, as long as it's useful to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 08:52 AM

I find myself somewhere in the middle as regards editing of the posts (by the "clones", many of whom are anonymous).

It wouldn't bother me so much except for the fact of having had a post deleted before (complete with an accompanying, scolding email).

I wouldn't mind if y'all went back through my entire history (it's open) and note that, though I'll get into some pretty heated discussions here, I have never posted what I think most would consider a "troll" post.

But a clone thought so.

I do wish this forum was moderated, but I fear that if it were moderated (even more than it already is), the shared ideals of the clones would most probably cross the fine line between "moderating" and "censoring".

As it currently exists, though I represent a minority voice (by a very large margin), I am at least almost always allowed to post as I wish -- this, despite the fact that, of the clones I am aware of, all disagree with my POV.

And there are safeguards built in. If I were to get edited on a regular basis (instead of the one embarrassing time), I would fire off PMs or emails to everyone I know here, and I bet that kind of discriminatory editing wouldn't happen so quickly again.

To be honest, the one function that I have trouble believing isn't availible to us here is the ablity to edit our own posts. EVERY other forum in which I participate allows it. It's amazing how that one simple function aids civility. You can...

1. change your mind and clarify or soften what you've said (sure, we could proof-read better, but accidents can and do happen). When these unitentional flames are left to stand, they have a tendency to recycle with each recycling of the thread.

2. So much of the acrimony that arises here is the oligarchical nature of a group of anonymous "clones" who, though I usually have no problem with, seem arbitrary. This acrimony is further exacerbated by the makeup of this forum -- the majority of whom have VERY (extremely?) egalitarian world view. They don't take well to being "lorded over".

3. As a creative person, I hate having my creativity cramped by the lack of this function. I bet I'm not the only one so frustrated.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 08:51 AM

Wise post, Kevin. There are times when I get so disgusted that I decide to give them a dose of their own salts. It is a silly response and I won't be doing it anymore. One has to be careful that they don't come what they hate. That is what GUEST above is referring to, and I feel there is some validity to it, at least when it comes to me. I simply am not going to respond to these folks anymore.

Mick