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Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Nov 10 - 04:39 PM Now Theo Bikel ~~ there is a man brilliant at accents: remember his perfect Irish on One Sunday Morning? {Jim, please note.} The point is, of course, that he is primarily an actor. ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 03 Nov 10 - 04:36 PM But it's not trying to sound like an American, fer chrissake. It's just trying to be understood. I can't say what it's trying to do -- that information remains with the performer. And I agree heartily with your point about trying to be widely understood, so far as that is one of the many reason someone would alter his/her accent. Maybe that is what he is doing. Nevertheless it does have American qualities. Michael's example of "quarder", "ciddy" etc. is strong evidence. That sort of pronunciation is nearly universally "American" (regardless of region). If you wanted to make yourself better understood, I'd think you'd use the English/South African/New Zealander/etc. "t" rather than America's unique sound. |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 03 Nov 10 - 04:03 PM Ewan MacColl always seemed to me like Theodore Bikel knowing fewer accents. =) |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Nov 10 - 03:21 PM "Even changed his name to the more Scottish sounding Ewan McColl.." Sort of like the feller who changed his name to Bob Dylan, you mean - don't think he could even claim Welsh parents. Jim |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Nov 10 - 02:59 PM The first group were English But from where? I suspect you'd get a different preferred order in different parts of the country. |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Joe Offer Date: 03 Nov 10 - 02:50 PM Come to think of it, on "Streets of London," McTell sounds just like Pierce Brosnan doing a James Bond movie - it sounds British, but it's understandable to a wider audience. David Attenborough and a lot of BBC announcers do the same. But it's not trying to sound like an American, fer chrissake. It's just trying to be understood. Americans often do the same thing when they're on stage - dropping the regionalisms so they can be understood, and so the accent doesn't get in the way of their performance. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Will Fly Date: 03 Nov 10 - 02:41 PM Oh well, if we're talking about actors, then give me Ray Winston as Henery the Eightf... "Oi! Anne Boleyn! You sl-a-a-g!" |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 03 Nov 10 - 02:35 PM I agree, Joe, re. "Streets of London" - but I've also heard Ralph McTell attempt an American accent in other songs. |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Nov 10 - 02:23 PM The 'proper Sussex accent' is of course that of the Copper Family ~~ at least up to the present generation of elders. ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: GUEST,glueman Date: 03 Nov 10 - 02:12 PM I once met a brother and sister from Blackboys in Sussex who spoke an accent quite unlike the estuary or RP one might expect. I asked my BiL who has always lived nearby and he said there is a proper Sussex accent but it has largely died out. It had touches of Norfolk and the west country to my ear. |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Joe Offer Date: 03 Nov 10 - 01:57 PM Interesting that somebody linked to this 1986 Ralph McTell recording of "Streets of London" as an example of "mid-Atlantic" accent. To me, he sounds completely British, perhaps softening the British accent a bit to make himself more understandable to a worldwide audience. But he sure doesn't sound anywhere close to any accent I've heard here in the US. Well, maybe he sounds a bit like British ex-pats who live in the US. Now, if you want to hear Britons trying to sound American, listen to Lonnie Donegan or the Rolling Stones. -Joe in California- |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: GUEST,glueman Date: 03 Nov 10 - 01:52 PM Wolverhampton (yam-yam) is an excellent accent and quite unlike Birmingham in its expressiveness. And no I'm not from either but know a fine sound when I hear one. Neil Tennant of Pet Shop Boys sings in a fascinating mix of posh geordie and faux Noel Coward. Then there's Morrissey's Betjeman/Bet Lynch hybrid. One question I've often pondered is why all crusties, protesters, new-agers adopt a Swindon accent whatever their origins. |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 03 Nov 10 - 01:46 PM When I was studying socio-linguistics, I remember an experiment that involved playing recordings of various English regional accents to two groups of people. The first group were English and they were asked to list the accents in order from favourite to least favourite. Birmingham and Liverpool were at the bottom and West Country at the top; but, interestingly, when the same recordings were played to the second group, Americans, the results were very different. This suggests that English listeners ratings involved certain prejudices. |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:14 AM "Some UK local accents are hideous... Birmingham and Wolverhampton" Richard, you can't truly believe that, can you? You may have the slightest point about Brummies, but the Black Country accent, especially when sung, is surely a thing of great beauty! It's a shame we don't hear more of it. Not folk in the narrower sense, but have a listen to Dan Haywood's New Hawks. Most of his songs are inspired by his travels around rural Scotland, but invariably sung in his lovely West Midlands twang... |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:05 AM Remember that lad from Salford Manchester who used to affect a Scottish accent in his singing and increasingly over the years, his general speech? Even changed his name to the more Scottish sounding Ewan McColl.... |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Nov 10 - 10:35 AM In acting, it can work the opposite way to how you describe of course Mike. Years ago I watched a television production of Théresé Raquin featuring the great Brian Cox. Cox played it in a straight 'English' accent up to an extremely dramatic scene towards the end, where the role appeared to take him over and he roared his way though his lines in broad Scots - superb - still makes the hairs on the back of the neck bristle to think of it. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 03 Nov 10 - 10:24 AM "Or am I the only person in the entire universe who finds anything at all odd about it?" ~Michael~...No: I (and others) have been saying it for years on Mudcat, and here, e.g. - http://davidfranks.webs.com/#messages And it's not just in our nation, of course: on Eurosport T.V., I was watching a gala of figure skating to what I thought was an American band playing live - until the lead singer began introducing the next song in a strong German accent. |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Nov 10 - 10:04 AM Sorry Mike - can't agree with your point on accents. The mid Atlantic one always gives me the impression of repeating the song parrot-fashion rather than the re-living of it in performance. The 'Oirish' one has the same effect on me, as does the yokel "oo-ar" one. I'm sure MacColl's Scots accent is going to surface here somewhere, but I think that's a little different. Ewan grew up in a Scots household surrounded by Scots accents; if you spent any time with him you realised his speech was full of naturally acquired Scotticisms. His singing accent was in no way authentic; his early influences were mixed, High and Lowland Scots and, having chosen to sing the Scots songs he had heard as a child, he deliberately neutralised them (as does an actor) in order to make them intelligible to an English audience. I remember seeing the Edinburgh Festival's production of MacBeath once and not understanding a word (particularly Matt McGinn playing the gatekeeper). Walter Pardon, in his gentle way, took ubridge at the mock-East anglian one that he came across on the radio occasionally. We were recording him talking about accents one night (we had just got hold of a very early recording of him at the Norwitch Festival noticed that his own had lessened somewhat over the years). He went into a gentle rant about 'country accents' on the radio; "They always depict us saying ""ooo, ar"". Pat said to him, "But you do sometimes say "oo-ar", Walter. He sat for a moment, stared up at the ceiling as said, "Oo-ar". Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: GUEST,Jon Date: 03 Nov 10 - 10:03 AM She would have been too old for me, Burl but, yes I think she is good looking. back to topic, If you are not American don't sing with an American accent.Why would you? I think if I was (not that I could) starring in a production of Oklahoma, I would. My mixed English accent may not seem right in the context. On the other hand with songs that move around and get adopted, I don't really see being other than myself. |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: squeezeboxhp Date: 03 Nov 10 - 10:01 AM try Dave Burland doing Butter & cheese and all in mid Barnsley acce4nt |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: GUEST Date: 03 Nov 10 - 09:05 AM Sing with the accent you use when you speak. If you are not American don't sing with an American accent.Why would you? Doesn't make sense and sounds dreadful. The worse of all for me though is someone who tries to sing with a Scottish accent when they are not Scottish. Appalling!
Thanks. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: RoyH (Burl) Date: 03 Nov 10 - 08:06 AM Somewhat off topic I know, but Thank You Jon for mentioning Gene Tierney, my first teenage crush (on a movie star) and still in my opinion the most beautiful woman ever on the screen. Closely followed, but never overtaken, by the divine Audrey Hepburn. |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Nov 10 - 08:02 AM Thanks, Pip. Greatly enjoyed that. Pseud's Corner? ~~ dear me know: a true celebration indeed ~~ as Henry James might have said, firmly rooted in the actual... and sung in the most appropriate of accents! ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Phil Edwards Date: 03 Nov 10 - 07:34 AM the Welsh names didn't seem right Ach y fi. What a sad story. Here's a bit of Billy Bragg to take the taste away (you'll probably guess the tune). "If you ever go to Shoeburyness Take the A-road, the OK road, it's the best! Go motoring on the A13. Well it starts down in Wapping Then it ain't a-stopping Bypass Barking and straight through Dagenham Down to Grays Thurrock And rather near Basildon Pitsea, Thundersley, Hadleigh, Leigh-on-Sea, Chalkwell, Prittlewell, Southend's the end!" Obviously he wrote it as a joke, but (at the risk of Pseud's Corner) I think it works rather well as a celebration of place - it's certainly a celebration of how many placenames you can get into a song. You can hear it, bizarrely enough, on the V&A Web site. |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Lighter Date: 03 Nov 10 - 07:33 AM "I do not believe that a singer can have any feeling whatsoever for the words they are singing when they are delivered in an accent other than their own." Why should that be? Even a terrible fake accent suggests an attempt to absorb every nuance of the song, successfully or not. The singer expresses, the audience perceives. All kinds of complications can occur in the space between, but the two processes are distinct. |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Nov 10 - 07:25 AM Not sure I agree with your last point entirely, Jim. I happen to be good at some accents ~~ I once played the Hollywood film star in Noel Coward's Relative Values for the Shelford [Cambs] Drama Circle; some of our members in the audience brought some American visitors, who, they told us, said afterwards "Weren't you lucky to get a real American to play that part?" When I won the Best Actor award in a drama festival with the same company for Shaffer's Black Comedy, in which I played Harold Gorringe, the camp antiques dealer, as a Scouse, the adjudicator asked in his summary whether I really came from the North of England [I was actually born in Hampstead]. & remember Ewan's Scots which differed so greatly from his native Salford... I don't make these points merely to boast, but to justify myself for sometimes singing in what I regard as an appropriate accent {Irish, American, Welsh, Norfolk}, if the song seems to call for it, and if I have confidence I can bring it off. Try, e.g., my Butter&Cheese&All or my Santa Fe Trail on my Youtube channel. But where no accent seems called for, in a purely narrative song with no specified local connections, I just try to sound like me, without affectation. I think it is these last two words in the previous para that matter. I feel much of the American that infiltrates many singers' performances is an affectation rather than an attempt at enhancement ~~ which is my point as OP of this thread. ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Nov 10 - 07:11 AM Sorry - cross-posted. ".....which is probably why most of my favourite singers, these days, are women." Tend to agree Shimrod, excluding those who sing in that dreadfully effected and artificial head-voice - every bit as false as cod-American. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Nov 10 - 07:06 AM We had a wonderful insight into the mindset that seems to go with this somewhat odd approach to singing. We booked an excellent (blues based, Welsh) musician/singer at our club, who had provided accompaniments for an album of songs from the Radio Ballads. He introduced one of his own songs something like this: "Last summer I was working at Butlins Holiday Camp at Aberystwyth(?) and I became very friendly with a waitress there. We spent the summer together, and at the end of the season we parted and got on our different trains to return to our different parts of the country. On the train I was thinking of how each station was a sort of milestone of the increasing gap between us; so I wrote this song on the journey home, naming all the stations. When I got home and looked at what I'd written; the Welsh names didn't seem right, so I altered them to American ones" (Memphis is the only one springs to mind). He then sang his perfectly good song, made about an experience which was obviously very dear to him, in a cod-American accent - totally destroying the effect that he had created with his preceeding story. I do not believe that a singer can have any feeling whatsoever for the words they are singing when they are delivered in an accent other than their own. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 03 Nov 10 - 07:06 AM I'm not sure that all that many recent British pop singers do have a mid-Atlantic accent - most of them sound to me as if they're singing in that curious second/third generation Jamaican/Asian form of the South London accent that lots of young people (regardless of ethnic origin) seem to affect these days. Nevertheless, aeons ago (in pop music terms) the Manchester/Salford accent, typified by Oasis (from Burnage), was fashionable for a while. Regarding prominent British folk singers, I'm struck by how many male singers affect that distinctive nasal sound, whilst I can't think of a single female singer who sings like that (perhaps it's something to do with the differences between male and female voices - and the nasal sound is harder for women to affect - or perhaps they've got more taste?). Nevertheless, the nasal sound irritates the hell out of me - which is probably why most of my favourite singers, these days, are women. |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Nov 10 - 06:57 AM Rob ~ in your version, certainly 'city/pity' indeed, though a somewhat obtrusive 'r' in the 'care' in the next line. In some others, tho [see how many there are on Youtube!] my 'ciddy/piddy' do occur. He wouldn't sing identically on all occasions over the years, of course ~~ perhaps someone had even suggested to him at some interim point that in an English context, 'city' would sound more seemly than 'ciddy'. Still, as Gibb Sahib says just a few posts back ~~ "I agree that the Streets of London sounds appreciably American, which is the main thing." ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Rob Naylor Date: 03 Nov 10 - 06:33 AM MtheGM: ... and in the last verse, most distinctly, "in the winter ciddy the rain crahs [presumably 'cries'] a liddle piddy"... This was the first one I opened: Streets of London and I just don't hear what you're hearing at all. He definitely articulates the "t" in both "city" and "pity" and "cries" has no hint of a "crah" in it to me. Maybe I'm just not very good at accents, though I did once ask a bloke in Oslo whether he came from Morningside in Edinburgh, to be told "No, I'm Norwegian, but my wife's from Morningside". And apparently I speak Norwegian with an Icelandic accent. Three times Oslo taxi drivers have mistaken me for an Icelander! |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie Date: 03 Nov 10 - 06:27 AM If you sing opera, then the accenting of the words works best when sung as written. Opera singers have known, appreciated and worked to this over the years. To a degree, this also works with any song. Narrative ballads may well work better in the natural voice of the singer, but that is because the voice is a relayer of words rather than a musical instrument in its own right. For me, authenticity is a two way street. I am English so a mid Atlantic voice can sound strange and cringingely false. That said, many songs I sing have words that don't sound the same as when I speak them, Harry Chapin and Kris Kristofferson songs especially... |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 03 Nov 10 - 06:26 AM crahs [presumably 'cries'] That's Southern (American). Yes, it is part of the established popular singing accent, but I believe it is based on Southern speech, not on the Mid/Trans-Atlantic. One could add, as Dave notes, that certain sounds are considered more mellifluous for singing. In America, to sing the dipthong "craeee" w/ too much emphasis is unaesthetic because of the tense mouth position on "ee"; the monopthong 'craa' is preferred. And the Mid Atlantic would distinguish itself from the common American 'ciddy' by actually saying 'city.' So these are not 'Mid-Atlantic' features, but they are features of 'pop music RP...which is based on American". I agree that the Streets of London sounds appreciably American, which is the main thing. I happen to think that 'Mid-Atlantic' is not the accurate term for it, but the term isnt important. |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Nov 10 - 06:10 AM ·····AND LET ME MAKE AN IMPORTANT POINT REGARDING 'STREETS OF LONDON' ~~ I am by no means disregarding its excellence as a piece of creative art, either as music or as verse. I think its lyric should be included in any worthwhile anthology of 20C English Poetry, along with, say, Peter Bellamy's Farewell To The Land, MacColl's Champion At Keeping Them Rolling, &c, as well as more obvious inclusions as work by Eliot, Dylan Thomas, Edward Thomas, Owen, Sassoon & so forth... It is only some inappropriateness in the way it is performed which I am animadverting against here. ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Nov 10 - 05:51 AM ... and in the last verse, most distinctly, "in the winter ciddy the rain crahs [presumably 'cries'] a liddle piddy"... |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Nov 10 - 05:42 AM Steve Hunt: thanks for your trouble. On the strength of what you said, I too went to Youtube & played back several versions of Sts of Ldn. I retain my impression that there is a strong MID-Atlantic influence, with emphasis on the 'Mid" ~~ largely matter of where the emphases fall, and usages like [as near as I can repro them phonetically] "quawdah pa-ye-sst eleven" ~ not as say one from the Bronx might say '¼-past-11'; but not as, e.g., I should pronounce it if I were singing it, which would be nearer to 'quaw-ter [with the 'R' silent*] passed [long 'a' ~ his is, distinctly, short, with that hint of a 'ye' after it which you would not get even in an English accent {e.g. Yorks, where the 'a' might be short}] 11'. I still think my point holds about the "mid"-ness of his accent and intonations. ~M~ *as Shaw remarked long ago, we lack a letter for the indefinite vowel, which phonetics represent as an upside-down 'e', even tho it is the commonest of our vowel sounds & can be represented by all our vowels on occasions, as in "formal, listen, definite, custom, fungus"... |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: doc.tom Date: 03 Nov 10 - 05:28 AM Fascinating thread. I always understood 'mid-Atlantic' to be shorthand (shortspeak?) for cod-American. People can affect whatever accent they like, of course (and many do) - I've even been known to get more Deb'n at times. However, an 'assumed' American accent is the first reason many 'wannabe booked' english artists' demo CDs go in the bin: we simply don't book performers who can't be bothered to use their own accents. |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Darowyn Date: 03 Nov 10 - 05:16 AM Complain as you may, don't forget that there are sometimes good reasons for modifying both vowels and consonants when singing. Microphones are, compared with our ears, over sensitive to plosive and sibilant consonants. Softening "S" in the direction of "SH" and "T" towards "D", and trying to avoid "P and B" when singing close mic are examples of good microphone technique- but they will tend to make a Briton sound American. With vowels it's more complicated. "Opera singers especially subscribe to a certain artificial pronunciation." This makes musical and acoustic sense. The formants that give vowels their distinctive sounds are sets of harmonic frequencies that overlay the fundamental pitch of the note. At some pitches, these frequencies do not sit happily together. Basic musicality will lead to a tendency to shift vowels towards those that sound better at that pitch. If they all sang "mid atlantic"* it would be fine. *that is the phrase used in the UK, whatever it means in the US. It's not such a clear cut case of mindless imitation as you think, and it would often sound worse if it was not done. Have you ever wondered why some of the best sounding choirs are regional? If you had both Welsh, French and Yorkshire people, singing perfectly in tune, in English, in their own accents, there would be some horrible clashes on certain sounds- actually on most sustained vowels. Cheers Dave |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 03 Nov 10 - 04:46 AM I remember a judge on a British TV talent show criticising a contestant - white British - for singing in a Jamaican accent; however, none of the other contestants were criticised for singing with American accents. A matter of perspective. This sort of "crossing", in that it appears to involve a racial leap, may be too much for them. Or it may have been done badly (as compared to the American accents, which were done better). *** My example again is that there are Japanese, Germans, Italians etc. that are performing in full on Jamaican accents and dialect and hardcore Jamaican music audiences have respect for them. The point of my example is that it is not the default position that one must perceive "singing accents" as phoniness or betrayal of one's prescribed identity. Taking an ethnocentric position of "We are English, so we shouldn't sing these horrid American accents" doesn't help much understand the "Why?" These artists show their competency through using appropriate accents. It is not necessarily a sign of their being passive, weak-minded slaves to media, cultural hegemony, low esteem etc etc, but rather can be active expression of identity and taste. I am fully secure in my local identity. In fact, if anyone gets me started I am happy to go on for hours about the nuances of my regional accent -- I am consciously aware of them. I think that where I am from is the greatest place in the world! But when I sing I will select whatever accent I feel is appropriate to 1. the aesthetics of the music 2. the identity I wish to convey. When I go into a coffee house in California I will ask for a 'smawl khawfi' in my usual way -- Damn them if they have to say 'What?' You've got a Southern New Englander in the house; step out of your damn state for once in your life and get some exposure to others. :) When I sing a song tho, I may want most people to understand the words the very first time, and allow my region identity to fade into the background. It can also be really fun to sing in different accents; speaking in them may be considered inappropriate, but since singing in them may not be, it offers a chance to shift into that character in a 'framed' context. I am offering this in answer to the question of "Why?" |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Steve Hunt Date: 03 Nov 10 - 04:43 AM Reading through this thread has caused me to have a listen to 'Streets Of London' to see if the original poster has a point. IMO, the only "Americanisms" in it are in the use of (popular hip-speak at the time) words like: "the sun don't shine" rather than the singer's accent. |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Nov 10 - 03:34 AM Absolutely, Tunesmith ~ very valuable point: so many [e.g. my wife ~ see OP] so accept that pop shall be sung in American that they don't even notice that it is happening; even when, as in talent shows, you hear the singers talk in [as in recent case of Bell-Amie] Liverpool accents and then take off into "HankyPankyYankee" for the song. Rob Naylor: — and a lot of the bands from my youth (eg Kinks, Yes, Ian Dury, The Nice, Pink Floyd, Moody Blues, Family and loads more) sang mainly in recognisably English accents...... Up to a point, Rob; tho even these iirc sounded more American [obtrusive 'R', e.g.] when singing than when just talking. ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 03 Nov 10 - 03:03 AM I remember a judge on a British TV talent show criticising a contestant - white British - for singing in a Jamaican accent; however, none of the other contestants were criticised for singing with American accents. Those accents are so ingrained in British pop culture that most Brits don't "hear" those dreadful, phoney accents. |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 03 Nov 10 - 01:35 AM American pop music has typically conformed to a more or less standard accent, too, and it is not the so-called "General American" accent (supposedly closest to the old Midwest accent). In fact, it has more of a Southern aspect to it -- perhaps reflecting the history of our popular music. Really, it is most notably an African-American accent (which has aspects of Southern accents). The majority of American pop music, until recently, can be seen as an outgrowth of Southern genres, be they "country" or "blues." The most notable feature is the avoidance of "r" (nonrhotic pronunciation). Though my own Northeastern regional American accent is more or less rhotic -- albeit occasionally r-less in certain contexts/registers -- I don't feel a bit of a phony singing songs without r. It's how songs are sung. People/I believe it sounds appropriate to singing. We are not stupid for thinking so. When I hear a Californian sing a similar style, and given that a Californian typically has a much more present 'r', I am slightly amused. That is because the difference between his/her speaking and the singing accent is much greater (i.e. than I perceive mine to be). However, who am I to judge? Singing with Southern/AAVE tendencies is part of what makes a singer sound competent -- some would say "authentic." If you can't sing that way, you're booted off American Idol immediately! I am intrigued by what I hear as a more recent phenomenon, and I don't know exactly what genres it falls into (though I have heard it in, say, the Emo that my nephew listens to)... where the accent it quite different. The 'R' is VERY present. It is like an Oregon/Northern California/Washington accent (I guess). It seems to convey something very different than the more mainstream/typical pop music. On one level, it is distinguishing itself as something new and alternative to the mainstream. However, in my very humble opinion, it is putting out a very deliberate "White" sound that contrasts with the usual "Black" sound. Whereas the "Black" sound has become the shared sound of pop amongst singers of all ethnicities, I can't help feeling that this newly-accented music is very oriented towards "White" listeners! For UK accents I'd cite Street Punk / Oi! as a genre that has remained very true to local accents. You can't very well sing "England Belongs to Me" in a Yankee accent. When I DJ to Jamaican music, my chat on the mic is necessarily in a sort of posh Jamaican accent of sorts. It is not in deep patois -- that would be a sort of overacting. However, there is a sort of accent shift that has emerged as a sort of "received pronunciation" for Jamaican music and which is appropriate for foreigners to use (see e.g. English sound man David Rodigan). What I find jarring -- but which has nonetheless gained widespread acceptance by the "natives" -- is the use of real, basolect creole by young foreigners doing Jamaican music. So long as you are respecting the culture, adopting the accent seems to have emerged as preferable to singing in an accent that is "foreign" to the genre. |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Rob Naylor Date: 02 Nov 10 - 09:32 PM Hmmmm, most of the indie bands I listen to now sing in regional accents. Eg: Maximo Park Ipso Facto Tom Williams and the Boat and a lot of the bands from my youth (eg Kinks, Yes, Ian Dury, The Nice, Pink Floyd, Moody Blues, Family and loads more) sang mainly in recognisably English accents. Certainly some bands affect a faux US accent, but it's by no means as ubiquitous as the OP makes out. |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Leadfingers Date: 02 Nov 10 - 09:25 PM Mr Bridge - There ARE a few American singers who make a VERY good job of singing English songs without sounding 'Orribly American - Louis Killen's American wife and singing partner Sally for one . and Mary Smith (Maryrrf in here) for another to start with . I could NEVER really enjoy Joan Baez singing English songs simply because she DOES sound SO american . delightful though her voice is . |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Joe Offer Date: 02 Nov 10 - 09:17 PM Well, Art Brooks alluded to the existence of a Wisconsin accent, but he broke my hear when he said I didn't sound like a Wisconsinite. But then, Wisconsinites never sound like non-Wisconsinites think they should sound. Pip Radish, I think I should explain. Most Americans who try to sound British, try to sound like posh Britons. Most Brits who try to sound American, have no desire to sound like old-money Americans (who try to sound like posh Britons...) So, in that sense, the Brits who try to sound like Americans aren't trying to be pretentious, and the Americans trying to sound like posh Britons are überpretentious... -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: GUEST,Russ Date: 02 Nov 10 - 09:03 PM I checked these out. Can't find "Mid Atlantic." Hans Kurath: Linguistic Atlas of the United States Linguistic Geography of the Mainland United States Russ (Permanent GUEST) |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: YorkshireYankee Date: 02 Nov 10 - 06:55 PM Artbrooks -- you've forgotten Midwestern! There is definitely a Midwestern accent which is not any of the others you mentioned. And audiences vary in expectation, levels of tolerance, and, yes, even the ability to distinguish a skilfully imitated accent from an atrocious one. Absolutely. I was amazed (as most other US-ians would be) to learn -- some time after I moved to the UK -- what universal mirth ensues whenever Dick Van Dyke's name is mentioned over here, where his name is a byword for a terrible attempt to sound Cockney (in Mary Poppins, for my fellow countrymen/women who will not be aware of this). I hate to say it, but we all thought his accent was quite convincing. (In our defense, our exposure to the real thing was virtually nil...) |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Lighter Date: 02 Nov 10 - 06:11 PM All musical interpretation is learned largely by ear. Opera singers epsecially subscribe to a certain artificial pronunciation because it is, in fact, traditional (though not quite in the sense we're accustomed to here). It's only natural that a singer who truly identifies with asong will want to emulate the accent that they associate with it. The issue, which is only problematic if we want is to be, is whether the singer's artificial delivery is acceptible to the audience. It might be unacceptable for any of a number of reasons - many of which have already been mentioned. And audiences vary in expectation, levels of tolerance, and, yes, even the ability to distinguish a skilfully imitated accent from an atrocious one. |
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Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 02 Nov 10 - 06:11 PM ·····John Lennon never sounded too American.····· I had him much in mind in OP-ing this thread. He tried to sound Liverpool when he stopped and thought about it; but often would lapse into the sort of cod-American I am thinking of when he let his attention slip, because that is the natural mode of British pop/rock-singers. My point is that it's a pity that some who are on the verge of folk, like McTell, lapse into it also ~~ often inappropriately, as it fights the actual content of what they are singing ("Let me take you by the hand and lead you through the streets of Tucson...") ~Michael~ |
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