 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB?
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: GUEST,Displaced Camelotian Date: 08 Aug 04 - 06:46 PM Re WW I, I should probably have used the word "non-nuclear" rather than "conventional." Even so, the admittedly barbaric use of poison gas (not "nerve gas," by the way, a later and more destructive development)along with the bombingj of civilians accounted for only a very few percent of WW I fatalities. About 5% of the 10,000,000 dead in WW I were civilians. In WW II, this percentage was closer to 66% - most of them in Russia and Eastern Europe. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Aug 04 - 06:27 PM Mass murder is mass murder, regardless, but those who commit it will usually seek to justify it after the fact...while those who suffered its consequences (in a collective sense) will protest it and seek revenge, compensation, or at least recognition of their suffering. The USA committed mass murder numerous times in World War II, as did most of the other combatants (Japan very notably included). The USA naturally tries to whitewash its own actions in this regard, and was aided and abetted in doing so by being on the winning side...a very useful place to be when justifying war crimes. It is entirely possible that Truman and his advisors thought they were doing what was best when they dropped those bombs. It is also possible that they just wanted to test those bombs on a real target and couldn't resist taking advantage of the rapidly dwindling opportunities to do so (Japan was nearing economic collapse and military impotence...in fact had already pretty well reached military impotence in terms of being unable to launch any more offensive operations in the Pacific theatre). It is also possible that they wanted to send a message to the Russians...or forestall a Russian advance into Japanese-occupied areas in China and Manchuria and Korea by ending the whole thing quickly before the Russians could get very far with that. They were assuming an amphibious invasion of Japan in 1946 would cost a million or more lives...BUT no such invasion would, in fact, have been necessary in order to secure an end to the fighting. So their assumption was based on somewhat unimaginative thinking, based on the war in Europe. They were demanding unconditional surrender...but it is never necessary to demand unconditional surrender in order to end a war...and NO surrender is in fact unconditional, truth be told! (Unless everyone on the losing side is dead.) There are always conditions. It's a very twisted tale. Those who are emotionally committed solidly to either side of this debate will naturally simply reject out of hand any opinion which opposes their own. Therefore, I shrug. It's all been said over and over again anyway. I suspect, sadly, that if the atomic bomb had not been used on Japan in 1945 it would soon have been used somewhere else...against either Russia or China...and that would have been potentially far more catastrophic for the World. So, maybe we all got lucky...with the exception, of course, of the incinerated and irradiated Japanese citizens in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They were most unlucky, and served as the sacrificial lambs on behalf of the rest of humanity...who stepped back and took a second look at the Frankenstein monster that their clever scientists had brought into the World. It's the sort of thing you can get away with...until enough people become fully aware of the results. Then it becomes almost unthinkable to do it again. Thank Hiroshima and Nagasaki for saving a lot of other people from burning up in the atomic fire. Maybe they saved you and me. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 08 Aug 04 - 06:27 PM Certainly there were plenty of Allied scientists who wanted to see if their bomb worked. But there was only enough fissionable material for the two bombs, You are in error here, there were three bombs in the US arsenal before the end of the war. The first was tested in the US desert. The other two were dropped on Japan. The Allied scientists and the President certainly knew that the bomb worked and what its short term effects would be before it was dropped. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Les from Hull Date: 08 Aug 04 - 06:12 PM It seems that opinion and propoganda have more of a grip on this thread than anything else. Go read some history, people! And then read some more. By doing so you will get a concensus of what modern historians have discovered about what was happening. The Soviet Union had agreed a date with the other Allies when they were going to attack the Japanese, not in the home islands, as they did not have the specialised equipment they would have needed, but in Manchuria. The Japanese (especially the Emperor and those close to him) were starting to sue for peace. They had asked the USSR to intervene, but the Soviets had no wish to because of their agreement to come in against the Japanese in September. So they didn't say that the Japanese had contacted them. Certainly there were plenty of Allied scientists who wanted to see if their bomb worked. But there was only enough fissionable material for the two bombs, even with some that was possibly captured off a submarine that was taking it from Japan to Germany (not substantiated this last bit, but possible/likely). Certainly the early surrender of the Japanese did 'save Allied lives'. No one was looking forward to invading the Japanese home islands, although plenty of materiel was making its way there for that job. But, as mentioned above, tht Japanese were sueing for peace, perhaps not as vigourously as the Allies would have hoped. But the story that Truman dropped the bomb to save Allied servicemen's lives is only partly true. But it's the kind of story that you want the folks at home to believe, isn't it? And Displaced C - WW1 conventional? You have perhaps forgotten about the poison gas used by both sides, and the bombing and shelling of civilian targets (particularly by the Germans). |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 08 Aug 04 - 05:59 PM Martin Gibson and "moderate" in the same sentence. This is turning out to be a very amusing thread. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Rabbi-Sol Date: 08 Aug 04 - 05:50 PM |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Rabbi-Sol Date: 08 Aug 04 - 05:49 PM Besides the veil of secrecy, we have to remember that news did not travel very fast in those days. Many of us today can not imagine a world without sattelite TV, and wihout the internet. It usually took about 24 hours go get news from the front, and even then, it was filtered before it came down to the general public. Truman himself did not even know about the bomb until a very short time before he had to make that fateful decision. The point being, we can not judge the actions of the past by today's standards, but only by what was available to our leaders at that time. SOL ZELLER |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Wolfgang Date: 08 Aug 04 - 05:35 PM Yes, Nerd, the 'the' before Mudcat lefts is completely wrong. My mistake. Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Once Famous Date: 08 Aug 04 - 05:33 PM Yep, nuke & puke. What a stupid ass thread. First of all, I am not a right wing nut like some asshole above said, but a patriotic moderate American. The far left idiots here who probably got there history from a Joan Baez song should be glad that America and Truman did what they had to do using the technology they HAD and others DIDN'T. War sucks. People die. You can't change history, you can only learn from it. Has a nuke been used since? Was a precedent set? Did you crawl under your desk to kiss your ass goodbye in elementary school when the air raid test sirens went off? Mooman, were you there to personally interview the general consensus of Navy seamen to make suck a ridiculous statement as you did? Freightdawg, your post was so right on. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: GUEST,Displaced Camelotian Date: 08 Aug 04 - 05:30 PM My final post on the matter: For all those romantics who believe that war "before Hiroshima" wasn't so bad, let me remind them that World War I was entirely "conventional," but still cost about ten million lives. And World War II, also entirely "conventional" before Hiroshima, took another fifty million. Zyklon-B, the gas used by Germany to carry out the Holocaust, was developed in peacetime as an insecticide.... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 08 Aug 04 - 05:26 PM "The Mudcat Left" That's a good one Wolfgang. From a North American perspective, the Mudcat left, is pretty much everyone but DougR. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Wolfgang Date: 08 Aug 04 - 05:20 PM Yes, Nerd, the 'the' before Mudcat lefts is completely wrong. My mistake. Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Wolfgang Date: 08 Aug 04 - 05:14 PM The history of the American wars shows mainly civilians are victims of the fights with the intention to intimidate the civilian population. In Vietnam, orders have been given to throw bombs on the civilian population as well as Napalm bombs in order to burn the woods and bombs with the intention to take the leaves off the trees with the consequence of spoiled harvests....In this war more than 2,000,000 Vietnamese died and 3,000,000 have been injured.... The use of Napalm and poisons had as a consequence devastating and even irreversible ecological damages. After the end of the second world war in Europe came the air attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the largest terrorist attacks ever, killing up to 300,000 people.... Even today, deformed children are born, still increasing the number of victims That's my translation of what I have found on a German website. It fits deplorably well into the discussion here, in my eyes. I took it from a German Neonazi website. What always amazes and worries me deeply is that there are two themes in which the Mudcat lefts are hardly distinguishable from the German Neonazis in their argumentation: (1) The crimes of the USA and (2) Israel Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Nerd Date: 08 Aug 04 - 05:09 PM Don't lump everyone together, though, Wolfgang. I am a "Mudcat left" who has not contributed much to this thread because I saw it as a bit pointless. People are claiming all sorts of things for which there is little firm evidence, etc. But for the record I definitely lean toward the camp that says, "the bomb was horrible, but necessary at that time." Nothing the other leftists have said here convinces me that this is a "party line from the past," etc, etc. Truman did what he thought he had to do to save lives and stabilize the world. Looking at Japan's progress since WWII, I think he largely succeeded. I would prefer if he had done it without the bomb, but I am not convinced he could have. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Wolfgang Date: 08 Aug 04 - 04:56 PM The history of the American wars shows mainly civilians are victims of the fights with the intention to intimidate the civilian population. In Vietnam, orders have been given to throw bombs on the civilian population as well as Napalm bombs in order to burn the woods and bombs with the intention to take the leaves off the trees with the consequence of spoiled harvests....In this war more than 2,000,000 Vietnamese died and 3,000,000 have been injured.... The use of Napalm and poisons had as a consequence devastating and even irreversible ecological damages. After the end of the second world war in Europe came the air attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the largest terrorist attacks ever, killing up to 300,000 people.... Even today, deformed children are born, still increasing the number of victims That's my translation of what I have found on a German website. It fits deplorably well into the discussion here, in my eyes. I took it from a German Neonazi website. What always amazes and worries me deeply is that there are two themes in which the Mudcat lefts are hardly distinguishable from the German Neonazis in their argumentation: (1) The crimes of the USA and (2) Israel Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 08 Aug 04 - 04:16 PM There's a bigger picture here than many of you are willing to step back to examine. What I think is that those who feel their lives were saved by the U.S. committing mass murder with the bombs over Japan aren't going to change their minds. If the bombs hadn't been dropped the continuation of war much beyond that point (equating to the loss of more American lives) or the conditional surrender of Japan (yeah, like we wouldn't have argued for different conditions?) are conjecture. Those raised in a Western tradition have a language that encodes our philosophies and our history. The same can be said for other cultures speaking other languages, and this is why we have such difficulties in understanding what other cultures are thinking--the hard wiring is distinctly different. (A recent study in Nature highlighted this, though it has been discussed at length for years). Just as today Bush-lite seems to have no one advising him who really understands the Arab way of thinking or how to behave when we're over there, Truman evidently didn't have anyone to consult on the subject of the Asian mind-set when it comes to warfare or negotiation. And the propaganda folks sure weren't going to accomodate the American public at large as to what might be going on in the heads of the Japanese we were fighting against. Coming from an All-things-being-equal standpoint of a life lost is a life lost, no matter where it is, the Japanese paid a far higher price than they should have as the war was winding down. U.S. politicians and scientists created their bomb that they just had to try, and if the surrender had happened, then they couldn't try it out. Read between the lines. War is horrible, no one should lose a life in such a way. But the U.S. upped the ante to such a level that the world will never be the same again. Even if one could justify (which I don't) Hiroshima, to drop the second on Nagasaki should be considered a war crime. Better that traditional warfare had continued and the end had come soon than those abominations of the American industrial military complex were dropped to have it end suddenly. The cost to the world was too great. SRS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Raedwulf Date: 08 Aug 04 - 03:29 PM Guest, whichever Guest you are, you're a pillock of the first order. Truman repeatedly delayed acceptance of the Japanese government's conditional surrender attempts until after both types of A-bomb had been used. The significant words in this are "conditional surrender". Parenthesis. Since May, I now work for Pearson Group, whose imprints include Pearson Education, Penguin, Puffin, & Longmans, amongst others. We have a library at work, so when I can find time to take a break, guess where I spend it, amongst history books a-plenty. Heaven! :) What I am basing my following points on is a book I have lately been reading called "More What If..." (link here) which includes essays on how nearly Truman didn't become President, & what might have happened if The Bomb hadn't been dropped. I can't quote the essayists sources off the top of my head, & I have no idea what his biases might be, but this, in a nutshell, is what the historian who speculated on The Bomb scenario had to say. Fact: Japan was ruled by a small military clique. I forget the exact number, but it's something like 6 or 7 people deciding the fate of the entire nation, with unquestioning obedience at their beck & call from the population at large. Fact: Conditional surrender, which is all that was on offer from the Japanese, meant a surrender in which all the existing power structures remained in place. Does anyone, even Stilly River Sage, think this was an acceptable proposition? Fact: The ruling clique was perfectly prepared to spend thousands & millions of Japanese lives (never mind Allied casualties) in an effort to force the Allies to accept a conditional surrender on the above terms. They knew they were beaten, but they (very humanly, if very inhumanely) sought surrender on the most advantageous terms. I ask again, does anyone, even Stilly River Sage, think this was an acceptable proposition? Fact: With the exception of Douglas MacArthur (who was rather Patton-esque in many respects, especially as regards his estimation of his own abilities - sorry, that's somewhat my opinion, rather than quoted fact!), the majority of the the senior US commanders, particularly Navy bods, were unenthusiastic (to say the least) about the prospects of invading Japan. Fact: Geographical limitations determined & limited the possible beach-heads for any American invasion of Japan. Hindsight has established that the Japanese high command (limited in certain respects, but not stupid) had correctly identified every single possibility & defended appropriately. Any invasion would have resulted in absolute carnage. Okinawa would have been a picnic by comparison & the American command knew it. Conservative casualty estimates run way beyond the million mark (try 2-3 million for size), making Hiroshima & Nagasaki small beer by comparison. Probability: It is likely that Hirohito had far more power, authority & knowledge than the Allies quite deliberately let everyone believe. There are strong indications that quite late in 1945, Hirohito was still in favour of continuing the war. Truman's decision was never going to be a good one to have to make. It was a choice between diabolical & far worse. SRS & anonymous guests can bleat all they want about "dogma" & "war criminals". Given the choice he had to make, Truman would have had to have been mad or stupid to have done otherwise. It was a horrible choice, even if he knew (which I doubt he did or could have) the full consequences. Nevertheless, I believe he not only saved thousands of American lives, by condemning H & N, I believe he also saved hundreds of thousands of Japanese (& maybe Russian too) lives. Plus, on the whole, he ultimately created a better society for all of those survivors. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: kendall Date: 08 Aug 04 - 03:11 PM One of my cousins was in the battle of Okinowa. Lucky for him he was not one of the 10,000 casualties. Remember, that was just a little island 350 miles from Japan. Imagine the bloodbath if the main islands had been invaded! Truman did a horrible yet necessary thing. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: GUEST,Displaced Camelotian Date: 08 Aug 04 - 02:51 PM Soviet plans to invade Japan in September 1945 were disclosed only within the past few years, after the fall of the Soviet Union. The earliest that a US/British invasion could have taken place was in October. At the very least, Japan would have ended up divided, like Korea, into a Communist north and a non-Communist south. Nobody knew how long the Japanese nation would have held out, fighting tooth and nail, against any Allied invasion. According to the bushido code, death (including suicide) was *always* preferable to defeat (one reason why the Japanese held Allied POWs in such contempt). This applied to civilians as well as to soldiers. As cruel as they were, the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki may well have cost fewer Japanese lives than any invasion of Japan. Ending the war when he did, against the wishes of many of his generals and advisors, was a courageous personal act for an Emperor who was also willing, under the Surrender terms, to renounce the ancient claim that that he was a god, descended directly from the Rising Sun. Emperor Hirohito had done nothing to prevent his army, navy, and air force from committing some of the worst atrocities in history against the peoples of China, Indochina, modern Malaysia, modern Indonesia, Thailand, and the Philippines. When he broadcast news of his intention to surrender, it was the first time the Japanese people had ever heard his voice. He was driven to surrender, he said, correctly, "in order to prevent the complete destruction of the nation of Japan." It is hard to imagine any nation (or leader) on earth that would have refrained from using any available weapon to end World War II to its advantage as quickly as possible. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Amos Date: 08 Aug 04 - 02:18 PM Go piss up a rope, GUEST. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: GUEST Date: 08 Aug 04 - 02:04 PM The USA is an evil war-mongering nation, they have no thought for anyone but their murdering uniformed uninformed thugs, their evil deeds throughout the world are well documented. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: CarolC Date: 08 Aug 04 - 02:00 PM But how could Truman have saved thousands of American lives if, as GUEST,Displaced Camelotian says: Planned or not, had the war not ended when it did, Stalin's army would have invaded Japan in early September, before our own planned invasion. If this is true, then it would have been Soviet soldiers who would have been killed rather than Americans. So now I'm wondering if maybe the US nuked Japan specifically for the purpose of preventing the Soviets from invading it first. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 08 Aug 04 - 01:52 PM The reason that the US is marked for eternity as another brutal monster like Rome, is that they very well knew the effects of the bomb before it was used in Japan, since they already had tested it. And, the scientists who created it knew what the yield would be! Nobody and nothing except G_d could forgive this act! It was and reamains a deed of such enormous evil that it's perpetrators today labor to disarm any other nation trying to acquire such weapons. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Amos Date: 08 Aug 04 - 01:49 PM This discussion has occurred before, and there's little merit in reworking it all over again, but there was a lot more control in the fanatic militant faction in Japan than I had previously understood. In light of that, it is possible that Truman did save thousands of American lives. Yes, it was merciless. It was a time of merciless decisions in many places, under extreme duresses. I would prefer, myself, to forgive those who lived through those times, and made those decisions, with the firm commitment not (if I can possibly help it) to repeat their errors. I see no value in shreiking about how wrong they were. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: GUEST,Displaced Camelotian Date: 08 Aug 04 - 01:24 PM Remember - if you ever knew - that even after the *second* bomb was dropped, the Japanese government was evenly divided about surrender. And when the Emperor announced his decision to end the war, a group of Japanese military officers actually tried the unthinkable - a coup to overthrow the government in order to keep the war going until all Japanese could experience the glory of fighting to the death. Planned or not, had the war not ended when it did, Stalin's army would have invaded Japan in early September, before our own planned invasion. Picture that! And picture a Stalinist Japan during the height of the Cold War! Two wrongs don't make a right, but in judging the reality of the situation, remember - if you ever knew about - the "Rape of Nanking," when the Japanese military killed 150,000 Chinese civilians, maybe more, just to show them who was boss. The Japanese were also the only army in WWII to use poison gas and germ warfare in battle (again, in China). By the way, it is *not* true that thefire bombing of Hamburg and/or Dresden killed more people than the attacks on Japan. Even David Irving, the pro-German writer who did more to disseminate the "100,000 killed" at Dresden myth in the 1960s, long ago renounced this figure - which, along with even larger "estimates," appears to have originated as Soviet/East German disinformation. War is indeed HELL and the HELL should be mitigated whenever possible. But second-guessing decisions made in 1945 by an American President trying to end, immediately, the most destructive war in human history against one of the rottenest militarist regimes in history is a waste of time and effort. Everyone has a horror story from World War II. Compared to the records of Germany, Japan, and, yes, the USSR, those of Britain and the US are justly commendable. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: freightdawg Date: 08 Aug 04 - 01:24 PM All of these arguments have been posted before, if I remember correctly, in a thread on the mini-series "Band of Brothers." Rapaire said it best: the two planes are historical artifacts, the only difference is that they are related to the direct cause of the end of the war. And, to correct a post earlier, the two bombs may have been the only readily available bombs, but there were other castings, or shells, that the devices were placed inside so they could be dropped from the planes. Had Japan not surrendered after the second bomb it would not have taken that much longer to produce other bomb cores. Being born and raised in Santa Fe, New Mexico, I was given the opportunity almost every year to visit the museum in Los Alamos where the replicas of Fat Man and Little Boy were on display. We were taught the role that Los Alamos had in WWII from a HISTORICAL perspective, not a moral one. It was always deathly quiet as we entered the museum, and even more quiet as we watched the films and listened to the curators. It had a profound impact on my life and still does. By the way, due to the pacifists and their constant moralizing, the museum display that we could see as children no longer exists. The version you see today is so sanitized and diluted that it is basically worthless in comparison to the lessons that I learned as a schoolchild. It is a real shame, too. I would think that if the real goal of pacifism is to prevent all future wars, they would want the whole truth of past wars to be exposed. Not so, according to the anti-nuke zealots. Apparently all they want to say is that the United States was solely responsible for the beginning and the middle and the end of WWII. Who says that Japan was just a few days, weeks months, etc from surrender? Were you alive back then? Were you on a troop ship, or were you in boot camp or in Europe training for the invasion of the Japanese mainland? Does the example of Iwo Jima mean nothing to you? So, SRS, you may attempt to demean my argument by saying that I am "parroting the dogma...etc." but the use of the atomic weapons ended the war that Japan started with a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor. It saved thousands of allied soldiers' lives. No one can say with definitive proof (i.e. a signed document) that Japan was ready to surrender. It is all speculation and hearsay and, as Kendall put it, "revisionist history." Go visit the USS Arizona and explain your revisionist history to the sailors that are entombed there. Freightdawg |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: GUEST,Displaced Camelotian Date: 08 Aug 04 - 01:00 PM |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: GUEST,Frank Date: 08 Aug 04 - 12:57 PM I lived through those times. I remember the day it was dropped. There was a lot of pressure to use it as an expedient. Not many at the time questioned its use or the aftermath. It's unclear just how much the Japanese had the will to persist in a war they were clearly losing. The Japanese-Americans were still in internment camps. There was a lot of demonizing as there are in any war. I think only after people saw the pictures of the innocent women and children in Hiroshima that a sense of moral guilt came into being. The bombadier on the Enola Gay was never the same afterward. He was not proud of this "accomplishment". It was a dark day in American history and there is no real honest assessment as to how many American lives it saved. It was an expedient. Some claim it saved their lives. These are the young men at the time who didn't have to go to fight. But the cost of using it has sent a shadow over the future of the human race that has persisted until this day. Now there is talk of using limited nuclear weapons in the "war on terror". Remember that once it was used as an atom bomb it became larger as a hydrogen bomb. There is something perverse on wanting to make a weapon larger and more efficient. Because of our foreign policy in using these weapons, other countries are likewise arming themselves with the same. Frank |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 08 Aug 04 - 12:40 PM Guest has posted far more citations than I listed in the past. If he/she would be so good as to give us a few locations for some of the documents, it would be appreciated. I'm sorry to see some of you still parroting the dogma that was the political/military party line 60 years ago. Hindsight should reveal the many cracks in that body of logic that painted the Japanese as sub-human and the American behavior as acceptable. Yes their behavior was awful. But so was ours. War is awful. The German nation bears a huge weight following revelations of the WWII concentration camps. I heard a recent story on The World or another NPR program to do with the current generation of Germans seeing to it that reparations are made to remaining camp survivors. The consensus expressed by the Germans on the program was that the generation in charge of those industries that previously benefitted from slave labor see the need for reparations. They're able to do this because those responsible for the atrocities have finally died and stopped defending their positions. I don't hear any of that responsibility expressed in the U.S. after the mercilous attacks on Japanese civilian populations. The Marshall Plan was a huge rebuilding project (as well as a Western assimilation plan). But there is no sustained feeling of guilt on the national level, no substantial codified expression of responsibility or regret at the horrible bombings in Japan during the war. SRS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Rapparee Date: 08 Aug 04 - 12:35 PM The Enola Gay is on display as a historical artifact, not as a boast. Bock's Car, the plane that dropped the Nagasaki bomb, is on display at Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio, along with other historic aircraft -- US, British, Russian, German and others. I've visited WPAFB, but I haven't been to the Dulles exhibit so I don't know what's there. I did see the Enola Gay when it was being restored at the Silver Hill facility. Again, other historic airplanes and spacecraft were there -- craft from a number of countries, not just the US. As for dropping nuclear bombs, I can only say as I've said before, right or wrong (and I mean morally, not militarily or historically or ethically or any other way), it brought my father home from the South Pacific to spend Christmas, 1945 with my mother and me -- the first of the five he'd spend with his wife and children before dying in a construction accident. It brought home my Uncles Jack, Gene, Bob, and Earl. I think at the time that's all they or their families cared about. As for the situation in Japan, I understand that the Japanese military who were in power had sent out feelers for a conditional surrender which were rejected by Moscow, London, and Washington. An unconditional surrender had been demanded, as was demanded of Germany and Italy. The military assured the Emperor that all was well. The people of Japan were actually being trained to defend the country with broomsticks and similar weapons (there are films of this training), the people had been told that the invaders would rape the children and eat the old people, etc. etc. (again, there are records of this), and that they should die for the Emperor. AFTER the bombings, Hirohito put a stop to the war by telling the military to give it up, to surrender unconditionally and save his people. The destructive force of the fission bomb was known: "On the morning of July 16, 1945, at 5:29:45 a.m., a group of scientists, army officials, and famous personalities - including British ambassador Lord Halifax and Harvard president Dr. James B. Conant - witnessed the detonation of "Fat Man," a thirteen-pound plutonium bomb, which caused a blaze of light and heat more brilliant than the rising sun. The eighteen-kiloton explosion shattered windows 120 miles from Trinity and rumbled as far as 250 miles away. The intense heat of the blast melted the surrounding sand into a green, glassy, radioactive substance dubbed "Trinitite," which litters the site to this day." The explosion was conservatively estimated to have been in the 10 KT range. Documents released after Trinity demonstrated that considerable radiation had indeed been released. It was noted, for instance, that the observers were exposed to as much as 8 roentgens, and the area even today shows radiation 10 times that of the surrounding area. |
|
Subject: Lyr Add: ENOLA GAY (Utah Phillips) From: Bill D Date: 08 Aug 04 - 09:43 AM I'm just glad it was not me who had to make that decision after Pearl Harbor and 4 years of terrible war....you who were not there cannot imagine what the stresses & pressures were to 'finish' the war, choose the action that would save the most lives, and scare all other would-be aggressors. I sing this--with sadness in my soul at the images and implications it raises, but I still don't know what I'd have done in Truman's place. ENOLA GAY (Utah Phillips) As recorded by Utah Phillips on "I've Got to Know" (1991)
1. Look out, look out from your schoolroom window.
2. It's many a mile from the Utah desert
3. High above the clouds in the sunlit silence,
4. What is that sound high above my city?
5. What will I say when my children ask me,
6. Look out, look out from your schoolroom window.
7. I turn to see the fireball rising.
8. Look out, look out from your schoolroom window. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: mack/misophist Date: 08 Aug 04 - 09:33 AM Let's return, for a moment, to the matter of radiation poisoning. It killed more people than the blasts did. To see how much we knew about the subject, how well we understood it, read Richard Feynman's auto biography. The short answer is that we didn't know bupkis. He was there. He worked on the project. He knew. Those deaths could not have been predicted. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 08 Aug 04 - 09:15 AM The Japanese were ready to surrender, conditionally. But the allies were demanding complete surrender and for religious reasons and fear of war crime punishment the Japanese were very reluctant to do so. If you really thing they were ready to surrender, explain why didn't they after to first bomb to spare Nagasaki? Was demanding complete surrender the right thing to do. In hindsight, with the benefits of the Marshall plan and the present relative properity of Japan. I would have to say yes. Again, the worrying thing is the present glorification of the event. Enoly Gay should be synonomous with "Never again", not "Look how mighty and clever we are." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 08 Aug 04 - 07:49 AM "Nuke & Puke" Gee, it doesn't seem like a week since Marty went on Holidays... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Aug 04 - 07:34 AM Whatever Navy servicemen may have thought, Germany was totally blockaded and bombarded day and night by USAF and RAF, yet fought on until the Red Army battled its way into the very centre of Berlin. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: mooman Date: 08 Aug 04 - 06:33 AM With due respect Rabbi-Sol, the general opinion amongst most navy servicemen and their commanders involved in the sea bombardment and blockade of Japanese ports at the time (my father was amongst them) was that the Japanese were, at most, probably three or four weeks away from surrender. The decision, in the view of many, was a political one rather than arising from military necessity. Peace moo |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Aug 04 - 05:35 AM It seems unlikely that the Japanese were close to surrender. There was a culture that death was preferable. I have seen film of Japanese mothers holding children jumping from cliffs on Okinawa. The firestorm raids on Tokyo killed far more people than the atomic attacks(likewise Dresden, Hamberg Etc.), but did not break the will to fight on. The attacks were a monstrous evil, but still a vastly less costly evil than another year of conventional warfare. Keith. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: freda underhill Date: 08 Aug 04 - 05:28 AM ..and a poem from the other side.. MY BEAUTIFUL HIROSHIMA TEACHER Crimson sunset in Lake Michigan. I think of a beautiful woman in Hiroshima when the bomb was dropped. Was she fortunate not to be killed with the 200,000 others? Was she unfortunate to stay alive? Bright light crushed her breath windows burst she went out she woke far off stuck all over with broken glass she couldn't scream in blood and pain no word would do or will ever do she felt the end of the world. Fujiko is more beautiful because of her scars Fujiko is more beautiful because many men and women have loved her Fujiko is more beautiful because she has lived alone Fujiko is more beautiful because she has taught many students Fujiko is more beautiful because she has always loved Hiroshima Fujiko is more beautiful because she plans to live in a tiny farmhouse there Fujiko is more beautiful because she does not fear the inevitable cancer Fujiko is more beautiful because of her peace. The wormy scar on her neck tells the folly of history. KEIKO MATSUI GIBSON |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: freda underhill Date: 08 Aug 04 - 05:27 AM Tony Benn (alias the Right Honourable Anthony Wedgewood Benn, P.C.), a former British Cabinet Minister of the time, said on the BBC Radio Four service on the 50th anniversary of Hiroshima, that the attack on Hiroshima was unnecessary, that the Japanese had already agreed to surrender, and that the use of the atomic bomb was part of an American conspiracy to terrorise the rest of the world with this manifestation of its power. Scottish poet Tom McGowran wrote the following poem on the 50th anniversary: Remembering Hiroshima lines on the fiftieth anniversary O, fortunate man: Wrists bound, knees bent, head bowed, Staring into the shadowed trench; The blade is swift, the slice is sure. Sightless, he sees what might have been. Crushed into a basket, the wicker constrains The drowning man's despairing, hopeful struggle, While the clear salt water scalds his lungs. . . . Or, Trailed behind the boat as sharkbait, Leaking blood to attract the sport And excite the laughter. Perhaps, at dusk, Strung by his thumbs to a branch, (His toes, even with the rocks attached, Yet still failing to reach the ground) He awaits the morning's bayonet drill. His friends had had it worse. Old Joe, Trussed with barbèd wire, mouth stopped, Pumped through his nose with water, Died beneath the boots that jumped and split His distended stomach open To their wearers' laughter. But the destruction of the body is nothing. The ritual is spiritual. They do it for the pain; And, yet, better, for the agony And for the ecstasy the agony gives them. O, how they love their cruelty, These little yellow men. Thank God: he hadn't been a woman, A pleasured nurse, gang-raped through the long night hours, Tortured near to death, Taken to the beach to wash Irremediable stains From broken body, And machine-gunned standing in the surf. Or, disembowelled to win a bet: The soldier won (it was a boy); The woman lost (the child, her life) As God's blood dripped into the gutter. And now, in the last few seconds of a lifetime, Deep inside that shadowed trench He sees his children playing in the sand, Their mother, mourning, watching. The blessèd blade sings its dirge: The blood spurts, mushrooms, Driven by the final heartbeat. The trench is black. His head Falls into the abyss. The author of this poem reported that he wrote it for two reasons. First was the memory of a photograph, seen in a book published by the British Government during the war (a book of which all copies to be found were withdrawn from circulation in 1951), featuring a row of Australian prisoners in the process of decapitation. He reflected at the time that perhaps they were the lucky ones, and in later years, as reports of officially sanctioned sadism entered the public domain, he learned they had indeed suffered a much less painful death than many thousands of others who were tortured by the Japanese cruelly, and who referred to this cruelty as Bushido. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 08 Aug 04 - 04:33 AM Good point Gurney - my uncle died in Changi, a prisoner of the Japanese, and I remember my family's attitude, when I was a child in the 50s, was that the Japs got what they deserved. That was pretty much the universal view in the years following the war. It's very easy now, for people who had no involvement in the horrors of that conflict, to try to take a high moral stance and 'tut-tut' at the actions of those who were involved. With the benefit of hindsight we may say the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were wrong, but the mind-set of people back in '45, after several years of war against an enemy whose savagery and inhumanity to his opponents almost defies belief, was naturally very different to ours today. There but for the grace of God............... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: kendall Date: 08 Aug 04 - 04:26 AM Furthermore, Truman didn't invade the wrong country like this dildo we have in the White House now. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 08 Aug 04 - 04:21 AM Quoute="boberet your spellingf has gone to hell, you alrright?" his spelling looks ok to me. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: kendall Date: 08 Aug 04 - 04:17 AM Have any of you revisionist ever studied the battle of Okinawa? That was a preview to the invasion of Japan. When I was in the service I had a shipmate who, as a small boy, had his throat cut by a Japanese soldier. He said it was a game with them to toss Filipino babies into the air and spear them on bayonets.That was not an isolated incident; those soldiers were worse than animals.Are the people who were killed in Hiroshima any deader than the ones who were killed in the firestorm in Dresden? Are they any deader than the American soldiers who were slaughtered on the Bataan death march? How about some sympathy for them? Furthermore, Germany was also working on the bomb. Are we grateful that they never got to drop one on London? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Gurney Date: 08 Aug 04 - 04:01 AM Was there anyone in America, England, Austraia, Canada, New Zealand, India, and the smaller allied countries who DIDN'T celebrate the abrupt end of WW2 AT THAT TIME? Regardless of what it cost the then enemy? I know my family did. They had three in uniform and one a prisoner of the Japanese. Hindsight is a brave thing, but you can do nothing at all in hindsight. Hindsight is for scholars who were not in uniform and carrying a bundook in the 40's. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 08 Aug 04 - 03:14 AM This is a pointless discussion. Right or wrong (and IMOO it was wrong, wrong, wrong), it's done and it can't be undone. Maybe you should all be putting your energy to better use, like speaking out about the plight of hundreds of thousands of innocent people starving to death in the Sudan RIGHT NOW! Unlike events that took place almost sixty years ago, that's a subject that people's current opinions can have an effect upon. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Nerd Date: 08 Aug 04 - 02:18 AM GUEST, you have posted some contradictory things above. Several suggest that Truman was not aware that he would be bombing civilians. Then we are told differently by a clinical psychologist (?) writing for a Canadian newspaper. But whom should we believe? As for the petitions, they are meaningless unless you can prove Truman read them. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: GUEST Date: 08 Aug 04 - 01:55 AM The Grief of Losing One's Own Flesh and Blood by Japanese poet Shinoe Shoda (1910-1965), who had been exposed to the bomb in Hiroshima The woman goes mad- She had fled, leaving her husband And seven children in the blazing fire. A lone survivor, She is grieved to be alive, Longing for her husband. A 50-year-old woman, Heavily made up with rouge and powder, Walks, deranged, crying, "I want to have a baby. I want to marry." Under the scorching sun In the field of debris Stands a charred tree, Against which leans The body of a woman who hanged herself. Having lost five members of his family, Driven to the utmost grief, My elder brother-in-law Wanders about the ruins night after night. Oh for surgery to remove the memories of bygone days. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: GUEST Date: 08 Aug 04 - 01:33 AM Casida of Sobbing Federico Garcia Lorca, tr. Robert Bly I have shut my balcony door because I don't want to hear the sobbing, but from behind the grayish walls nothing else comes out but sobbing. Very few angels are singing, very few dogs are barking, a thousand violins fit into the palm of my hand. But the sobbing is a gigantic dog, the sobbing is a gigantic angel, the sobbing is a gigantic violin, tears close the wind's jaws, all there is to hear is sobbing. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: Mark Clark Date: 08 Aug 04 - 01:12 AM If anyone is truly interested in having more information about the events leading to the use of atomic weapons by the US and of H.S. Truman's role in the decision, I suggest reading the well informed and carefully documented book The Myths of August: A Personal Exploration of Our Tragic Cold War Affair With the Atom by Stewart L. Udall. It's been quite a while since I last read this but as I recall, Truman wasn't told about the bomb or its planned use until just before it was dropped. - Mark |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exactly why the US dropped THE BOMB? From: GUEST Date: 08 Aug 04 - 01:06 AM In addition to the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs, the March 1945 fire bomb raid on Tokyo killed nearly 100,000 people and injured over 1,000,000, and the May 1945 fire bomb raid killed another 83,000. The decision to use nuclear weapons and to force an unconditional surrender, rather than negotiate a peace treaty (which is what was done after the bombing), was a political decision, not a military decision dictated by military necessity. |
