BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: gnu
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 07:44 PM

Banks and bailouts and bullshit? Watch this.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 07:30 PM

That was my experience too. I suddenly couldn't afford to travel to Greece, not because they had suddenly become an industrial powerhouse, but because they were in the same economy with wealthy northerners. And it seemed like they were borrowing heavily from outsiders and using the borrowed money to pay outsiders to rebuild the country in a more high-tech mold. Not that they should be poor just so I can vacation there, but they didn't suddenly create the economic basis for that radical increase in the cost of living. All the new airports and highways and Olympic stadiums had a price they couldn't really afford. Now they're paying for it, just as our children will pay for our reckless military spending coupled with continual tax cuts for the rich.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 06:46 PM

My barber is from Greece, left the country in thd 60s for a better life, as tge economy was tough. He told me when he visited for many years, his income was better than those in the lnd he left. But, he told me when the country joined the EC, he was envious of the sudden high incomes and low taxes.

Now, he recently told me the economy seemed to turn back to where it should be.0, what incomes and where taxes should be-based on the real economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 05:34 PM

It isn't the small fry that are Greece's tax problem. The country's biggest industry is shipbuilding, which is tax-exempt, and its biggest landowner is the Church, ditto.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 05:18 PM

If you are rich enough to ahve a fast boat. Tell me Bonzo, do you purport to think that fair or justifiable?

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 04:46 PM

Try telling that to the many thousands of shanty town dwellers in and around Buenos Aires who lost everything. Wise folks kept their US dollars in Uruguay - just 1 hour away by fast boat!

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 03:22 PM

The F.A.I.R. article says Argentina didn't do nearly as badly as everyone predicted. It includes a
chart of Argentina's GDP 1996-2007, which is very surprising.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 02:20 PM

Not forgetting Argentina of course in 2002!!

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 01:13 PM

When you owe the banks $10,000, they own you.
When you owe the banks $10,000,000,000, you own them.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 12:56 PM

The media watch group Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting has an interesting article on it, suggesting that the dire consequences of default have been greatly exaggerated, especially in comparison to the dire consequences of the currently available alternative.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,.
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 12:32 PM

A sunny place to spend the winter...maybe open a B&B?

Taxes are much less than the UK...and its cheerier than Ireland or Iceland.


Euro120,000
Crete
6 Bedroom House, Rodopos

globalproperty guide

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 12:26 PM

One of the basic Marxist tenets was that capitalism would continually be in crises that it would face with extreme measures, enforced austerity, social clampdown, war and eventually, revolution or fascism.
Greece has already had its period of fascist dictatorship, (supported by the "decent countries" - with horrific results.
It really doesn't need another one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 12:21 PM

I don't pretend to understand the financial problem, but I had always imagined....apparently wrongly....that Greece had a thriving tourist industry that would keep the country afloat.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 12:10 PM

just have a look at any difficult situation anywhere in the world ever - a crisis for ordinary people is always caused by the rich and powerful. it's the nature of capitalism. all we have is solidarity and an awareness of history and the crimes of the oppressors. to say 'the greeks' didn't pay their taxes is grossly simplistic. it's like blaming people with spare bedrooms in workington council flats for our housing crisis.
it seems to me that now we have a greek government prepared to challenge the current orthodox economic insistence on austerity. they represent people who - through no fault of their own - have seen a rapid decline in their financial situation. we have to give whatever support we can to any of the 99% who try to take a stand.

i should have begun this message - as i suspect we all should - with the disclaimer that i know next to nothing about finance or greece. (except that leonard cohen lived their for a while and they won a major football trophy a few years back)
however, i have read naomi klein's 'the shock doctrine' and applying a bit of my simple marxist thinking usually gets me to the right - well, left - understanding of most issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 11:23 AM

Greece is facing problems not unsimilar to those faced by Ireland recently - a crisis brought on by greedy bankers and corrupt and incompetent politicians
Ireland reached a settlement with the E.U. by adopting policies which made the poor pay for the greed, corruption and incompetence - it had no problem in getting an agreement from Europe
The recently elected Greek Government refuses to take that road - fair play to them.
I always suspected the idea of a 'Common Market' was to allow it to maintain political, social and economic status quo among it's member countries - what is happening now confirms that to be the case - it is a political set up rather than an economic one.
Its position was summed up nicely today by the European spokesman who described the decision to hold a referendum on whether to accept the terms of the compromise as, 'a dishonest betrayal' - let the politicians who got the country into a mess decide - ****
what the people think"
"Greece living beyond her means" - you have to be joking.
She is an economically sharply divided country , largely rural, with a large rural poor and a small wealthy elite, based in the cities - you only have to drive out of the towns to see the real situation.
Whatever is decided, the Greek government has my good wishes.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 11:10 AM

The EU is a money trough to keep the rich countries viable...now based on exploiting cheap immigrant labour in place of proper planning and training for our own population.

It will crash soon and better that we are out of it before the crash.
Greece could probably do better outside the EU, Scotland certainly could...but the UK is in a different situation.

Iceland left and now is the fastest growing economy.

With the EU we lose our money, we lose our jobs and we lose our sovereignty......why bother!

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: frogprince
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 11:08 AM

" Meanwhile, it doesn't sound like a great place to visit as a tourist"

I may be getting back to you on that. We went to the island of Naxos for a few days last Sept. We had a totally positive experience, and I've arranged to go back at about the same time this year. I would say the only effect for us from the degree of the problem last year was the remarkably low price of good food and lodging. Whether Naxos is able to ride out some of the worst conditions of the mainland, or going back this year proves to be a bad decision, we shall see.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 10:57 AM

In the end, does the rest of the European Community just sit back and see families starve?

That, to me, would go against the whole spirit of what the EU is meant to stand for.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 10:50 AM

It's like the parable of the grasshopper and the ant - writ large and for real.

Perhaps the "correct" moral stance is to say to Greece, "Well, we told you so - now you reap the rewards of your actions." And that may be right and proper, viewed in one light. One can see the actions of the past and the attitudes that formed them.

But when I read of the plight of those many Greek people who have paid their taxes and lived an orderly and quiet life, I can't help feeling a great deal of pity for them. I have friends with families in Greece - decent people who have been thrown into turmoil through no fault of their own.

In the end, does the rest of the European Community just sit back and see families starve?

I don't have an answer, just a feeling of sadness.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 10:42 AM

A black economy cash culture, once well rooted, is extremely difficult to overturn. Once you get the feeling that everybody's at it, you have no compunction when it comes to joining in the fun. It happens here, there and everywhere. It doesn't help when governments tightening the reins make benefits payments subject to harsh mean testing, at the same time being seen to be letting the rich off the hook big time. Unintended consequences and all that. Welcome to the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 10:35 AM

Greece will not pay in pounds
of flesh.

They will just have to delay and reorganize for decades like they already have.


This month they owe about 3 billion and the next payment goes up to 15 billion.

A haven for the rich to not pay taxes is an old republican trick.

As long as banks consider themselves the center of civilization show downs will happen.

We had a recent showdown caused by banks and lost. We lost cities schools space programs jobs state economies highways streets and neighborhoods.

Puerto Rico owes 17 billion

Ultimately these debts will be written down unless banks start to accept pounds of flesh.

After all the real damage done by banks it really does come down to real pounds flesh.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 10:27 AM

Germany will not let the whole thing unravel. And I wasn't having a go at you, HiLo, just addressing your point about other countries' obligations.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 10:25 AM

So what to do?
The EU want to impose harsh austerity for years to come until an acceptable repayment is made.

Most Greeks are not prepared to endure that.
They could just default and start again, with their own currency if necessary.
Argentina defaulted on its debts a few years ago, and is now doing OK.

If Greece does it and does OK, Spain and Portugal might follow them.

That would increase the burden on France and Ireland.
The whole thing could unravel.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 10:25 AM

I was not moralizing, I was simply stating facts. You seem to have missed my point. The point being that living beyond your means is a dangerous thing and needs to be dealt with, not by devaluing the currency, as you suggest, but by collecting taxes due and reducing spending.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 10:20 AM

Yes they should, HiLo. The big EU economies have done bloody well out of the euro and now it's payback time. A single currency for an extremely diverse bunch of nations was a terrible idea. The poorest nations can't do what they need to do, devalue their currencies, which is a large part of the problem. The richest ones are obliged to keep those countries afloat.   Moralising at nations who have been on their uppers for years largely because of circumstances out of their control (and isn't hindsight a wonderful thing) is highly hypocritical.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 10:00 AM

Neither countries nor individuals can spend years living beyond their means and not have it catch up to them. This is not about the rich or corporations not paying tax. This is about the sense of entitlement that ordinary Greeks have when it comes to government services, they want them but they don't want to pay for them. Tax avoidance is an epidemic in Greece.
I do feel for those who are caught up in this, but European tax payers should not be on the hook for this, should they ?

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 09:52 AM

The key is in collecting taxes. Meanwhile, it doesn't sound like a great place to visit as a tourist, providing even less cash to operate on.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 09:17 AM

I'd heard that the rich Greeks had studiously avoided paying tax for many, many years, but I wasn't aware that it had also been a more general problem.

Pity we can't stop some of our major corporations from tax avoidance...

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 09:02 AM

No-one like paying tax, and all countries have small businesses.
In most countries they come after you if you don't pay.
In Greece they did not bother, and just borrowed more to make it up.
That could only end one way.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 08:50 AM

It's quite hard to collect taxes in Greece, so I believe, as many Greek people of modest means don't like the idea of handing over their hard-earned cash to the taxman, and Greece is full of small businesses that give the tax authorities a bit of a nightmare. This, of course, has been severely condemned by the powers that be in the richest EU countries. The same countries that seem strangely reluctant to crack down on the hundreds of billions of tax avoidance and evasion by the richest individuals and corporations in the world, sums that make Greece's travails look like a squabble over Mickey Mouse money. Strange world, innit? Somehow, I can't see Germany, the country that has benefited most from the euro, letting the single currency collapse. We live in interesting times.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 08:47 AM

They lived beyond their means for years by borrowing money.
Now they can not even afford the interest.

Subject: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 08:38 AM

I read the news about Greece and its current situation vis-a-vis the European Union and the Euro community. Sounds like a hellish situation to be in. Not being particularly interested in world financial matters, or even European financial matters, I'm somewhat bemused as to how and why a country like Greece could get into such a terrible situation.

Any interesting or enlightened comments? No matter what the causes, I do feel sorry for those ordinary Greek people swept along by it all.