Sitting At The Kitchen Table

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 08:21 PM

Chickens are indeed good entertainment. As I mentioned earlier, in the years that I lived in the Gate House at the Stamford Museum where I worked, chickens would wander down from our small farm to search for food on the lawn outside my kitchen window. I always got a kick out of watching them. They were quite aggressive if I put food out, not being intimidated by the crows who always appeared within 30 seconds out of nowhere, or the squirrels.

I also has a banty rooster as a pet when I was living at home for my first year of college. His name was Herbert, and I wrote a song about him. Chickens aren't just good for eating.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Naemanson
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 07:05 PM

My seat at our kitchen table is next to the back door. Now that we are into the dry season we often open up the house in the cool of the morning. We have a flock of wild chickens that wander through our yeard every morning, the roosters crowing and the hens cackling and clucking to each other. The other day I picked the last piece of crust out of the bread bag and threw it out there for them. They scrambled and squabbled over it and generally appreciated it as only a flock of chickens can. Today I tossed them another piece of bread and then some cooked rice. I enjoy feeding them. They are very skittish, being wild, but also greedy enough to overcome that skittishness if I don't move too much. The roosters are big beautiful birds, very colorful and proud. The hens are pretty in a variety of colors and markings. One is almost all black and very dark green. Another is white with brown speckles. I'm hoping to see chicks soon. I love to watch them chasing around under the mother hen's feet.

It makes for good entertainment from my kitchen table. Much better than TV.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 04:45 PM

Hey Lady:

That sounds like my approach to playing chords on guitar. When I first started out as a teenager, I wanted to be a jazz guitarist. I barely knew the basic chords, but I could hear the music in my head. I worked out an admittedly somewhat primitive arrangement of one of my favorite pieces, Little Girl Blue with fairly sophisticated chords way up on the neck, played in a less than graceful approach due to my limited experience. I wonder what it would sound like now, if I heard it. I'd probably do some wincing (not because the harmonies were wrong, but because I didn't have the facility to make the music flow smoothly) but I'd probably laugh at my audacity and naevity. For me, it has always been a matter of moving my fingers around until what I hear in my head comes out of my guitar. Even today, I play many chords that I have no idea what they are. They just sound right.

Singing harmony can be the same way. I have the musical literacy of a cave man, but I know what sounds good (and what sounds sour.)

Sorry your life has been a bit strained lately... and glad that you stopped by for a minute..

Be sure to come back..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: lady penelope
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 04:30 PM

Heh.

Hi guys, haven't been round for a bit. Life's been a bit ....... strained. Any way, Richard Digence's definition of harmony is to "pick a note an move it around till the person next to you stops whincing....." It's advice that worked for me for years. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 11:46 AM

Well, have a good weekend then, Ron:

Not to excessively oversimplify bluegrass harmony, but it seems like it could all be entered in to a computer. It's one of the reasons that I don't personally enjoy most bluegrass. (There are some exceptions, like our own Barbara and Frank Shaw's group, Shoregrass... they are probably more to my taste because they don't seem programmed.) Coming to harmony through folok music probably makes me more amenable to looser harmonies. Some of the stuff I really love in traditional folk allows for a lot of freedom, including individual harmonies to change at times, even within the same song. Some folks find security and pleasure in tightly worked out, close harmonies. Just call me too-loose Latrec.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 11:36 AM

Jerry-

I wish I could help with explaining about arranging harmonies. My hat's off to those can arrange music, as it is to composers and writers like you.

But as for arranging--no,no, no it ain't me babe, it ain't me you're lookin' for, babe. In the groups I've led, either the entire arrangement was already written out or we just filled in the chords as they changed, trying not to duplicate. It wasn't easy.

In the bluegrass group I was in, it was even harder--bluegrass seems to prescribe only specific harmonies for specific voices--I was used to making up harmonies according to what I could do and what I thought the song called for--but wound up poaching on others' vocal territory, it seems. They seem pretty strict about that in bluegrass.

By the way, I will be very busy for the next 3 days---hope to get back to the Kitchen Table perhaps Monday.

I do know some people who have arranged music. Maybe next week I can pick the brains of one arranger--who, interestingly enough, arranges black gospel--to get some pointers from him. It sure sounds like an arcane science to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 11:16 AM

Yeah, I'm waiting too, Ebbie: (I just sent off a long e-mail on the subject and would be glad to forward one to you if you PM your e-mail address.)

One thing about kitchen tables. Sometimes, you just sit down by yourself and have a cup of coffee and reflect on friends and old conversations. I lived alone for a long slug of time in my life, when the only company I had at my kitchen table was my two cats. They were good company, and listened attentively when I spoke to them (as long as there was some food in the deal.)

There's a line in a song that Carmen McRae sings that seemed very wise to me, and it applies to all conversation. The song is about looking back at the mistakes we've made in our lives:

"I Never stopped to listen, never missed a chance to speak."

Sometimes, it's good to just sit and listen to the silence. Old conversations come floating back to you and it's as if you are once again sitting at the table with an old friend.

So, if you don't mind, I'll just sit here and have a cup of coffee and talk with my wife. Perhaps someone will stop by, later..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 12:03 PM

Boy! This I want to hear.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 11:50 AM

I'll take a cup while you're up, Ebbie:

Getting back to harmony.. of the musical kind. Last night I had practice with my friends Joe and Frankie. We've been together now for over 9 years and because we all have a good, natural sense of harmony, none of us has stepped forward to do "arrangements." At least that's the way I've perceived it. In truth, I guess I have been the one, although I have never felt capable of doing it. So, even when I've been doing a lot of the arranging, I would never call it that. Sometimes I think that things we think we can't do are often things we just haven't done yet. Or realized that we've been doing them all along. Last night, I tried something different, because we were having trouble finding good harmonies on a song we all love. Because our tenor is gone, we've had to rework a lot of the harmonies, and it's been a good experience. Joe, our wonderful bass singer has an enormous range and he decided to come up and sing Frankie's baritone harmony. That pushed Frankie up into a high tenor range, which was too high for him, so he slipped down underneath Joe's harmony. That left us with our bass singer tenor and our baritone singing bass. And we really stunk (Whoops, that's being judgmental!) By the time we realized it and went back to what we used to do, we'd lost everything. So, what I started doing was at each chord change, I stopped and showed the guys what notes they could hit that were in that chord. It was a breakthrough for us. After all these years. When we found our notes at each chord change, then it was relatively easy for the guys to hear where they were going. Along the way, I realize that I was "arranging" our harmonies. Considering that I can't do it, it worked out fine. :-)

When we are singing in the Male Chorus we all sing in, I have reached the point where I can hear the baritone harmony on the piano. I think that's because when a chord is hit, you hear all four harmony notes simultaneously. It's different on guitar, and harder for the guys to hear. That's why stopping and playing the individual notes of the chord was so helpful.

I'm curious to hear from you Catters who really know what you're doing, "arranging" harmonies..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 11:26 AM

When my father turned 80, he and two friends went out for a celebratory breakfast. Both his friends had turned 80 earlier in the same month; my father was the youngest of the three.

At one point my father said, You know, we've about got it made. They say very few people die when they're 80.


My father died when he was 93. Strangely enough, each of the three men died in the order of their births.

Speaking of a sense of humor, that is the one place where my mother and father were well matched. My father loved to make people laugh and my mother loved funny things.

Another cup, Jerry? Can I get someone else a cup while I'm up?

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 08:42 AM

I thought it was pretty funny, Ron:

Sometimes funny uses of words flow naturally. Once I was playing a board game (In graduate school) with my roommate and I need a sxi, rolling the dice. I rolled a 4 and a 2, and without even thinking said, "how fortuitous." :-)

I can deal with the most obnoxious person on earth. But put me in the company of someone without a sense of humor and I'm in trouble.

I also so a photo mislabeled, by the way, of my wife and I stopping for desert...

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 07:05 AM

"presumptuous". Physician, heal thyself.

"Young man home from college makes a great display
"'With a fancy adjective that he can hardly say"

(Both directed at myself)

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 06:33 AM

Jerry--I didn't mean to be presumptous. I just look for humor everywhere--and therefore find it. I love puns and other wordplay. I suppose that's why the copycat threads these days don't bother me at all--they're often based on puns, misstypings and other wordgames.

I suppose this also illustrates two possible hazards of the Internet. At a real kitchen table, typing wouldn't be important since you would have pronounced the word. Also, at a real table, you would be able to see that I was kidding from my expression. I just felt that we were informal enough so I could venture that facetious remark. Probably shouldn't have--but I'm glad you took it in the right (joshing) spirit. I was picturing a possible Far Side cartoon in which a guy was telling some others now they would get their just desert--and pointing out into a waterless waste.

Oh well, I should learn to restrain myself. It ain't easy.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 11:49 PM

LOL, Ron: I guess I must be tired. Maybe that's what they mean about being retired. Ever since I retired I've been tired again, and again. Re-tired.

Joe and Frankie are getting their just desserts.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 11:31 PM

Gee Jerry, what did they do to be sent into the desert? (Just kidding).

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 11:01 PM

Yeah, Billybob, I love stopping in here to see who has settled in for a moment. And I know that others have stopped by but didn't feel moved to post at the time.

Tonight was a beautiful one for me. My friends Joe and Frankie of the Gospel Messengers are such wonderful men. Like many wonderful people, they've passed through life almost unnoticed. They are both fine singers, and even finer people. Frankie will hit 80 early in May, and Joe will follow right behind him later in the month, hitting 82. Like all high-mileage models, they're spending more and more time in the repair shop and it becomes increasingly difficult for them to make the kind of commitment that is needed to keep a group growing. But tonight... I gave each of them their first 6 copies of our CD... it's hard to know how much it means to them. I know that Joe is very moved by it. After a life-time of singing whit his whole heart and soul, he finally has something he can hold in his hands, and give to others. I feel very honored to have been able to give this to both of them, and they are soooo thankful. It does my heart good to see good people get their just deserts.

Of coures, they have to eat their vegetables first. Joe and Frankie have been eating their vegetables for 80 years.

Now it's desert time..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: billybob
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 08:32 PM

When I married Billy he had a son and a daughter and so did I.Right at the begining we said we did not believe in "steps" children have a mother and a father and "steps" are bonus parents as they choose to have you.
I think we got it right, Billy has been a wonderful bonus dad to my two,( we would have to ask the opinion of his two as to what they think of me!!)My proudest moment was my daughter getting married and her two dads walking her into church and giving her away and then both giving speeches at the reception as father of the bride. I always feel sad when young people are getting married and one parent or the other(when divorced) dictate that if the ex comes to the wedding then they will not.A young lady who used to work for me got married far away from home in St Lucia with neither parents there as her mother refused to be in the same room as her ex husband and the bride did not want to upset either of them at great emotional expense to herself, we all have issues, but our children should come first.
Loving this late night table Jerry, glass of wine then off to bed, night all

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 06:07 PM

And good on you helping your sister's son, naemanson. Diarhea, eh? I've been called a lot of things in my life, but never that.. :-)

Funny how I got my name. My Parents wanted to name me Lars, after my Grandfather. Now, that would have been a cool name. I bet it doesn't mean diarhea in any language.. But, my oldest sister had a terrible crush on a boy in our neighborhood named Jerry and she bugged my parents so mercilessly that they finally relented and named me Jerry. Of course, the romance between my older sister and the love of her life faded. She was only five years old at the time..

My son Pasha started calling me Jeremiah, the Old Prophet not long after he first met me. Now, Jeremiah sounds a lot more dignified. Than diarhea.

Lars (Don't I wish)

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Naemanson
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 05:53 PM

This seems like a good place for a bit of humor. Several years ago, here on Guam, Several years ago we had an election and one of the candidates was named Geri. Her name was on signs all over the island. The Japanese tourists were surprised, puzzled, and somewhat disgusted to see these signs. The Japanese word for diarhea is 'geri' pronounced (geh-li - hard 'g'). That has spawned an interesting bit of urban legend here on the island. No babies have been named Jerry (or any variation of that name) since them. People on the island really believe the word means diarhea not realizing they are not pronouncing it correctly.

A rose by any other name...

As to parents, I was very lucky that I have two great parents and that they still live in relatively good health. My sister's husband was not a good parent and early on she asked me to stand in as a role model for her son. I did my best. We ended up in a role playing game that ran on for 8 years. Her son and my kids formed a solid allegiance that found its headquarters in my home. Now they are all grown and gone off to live their lives but they still remember those long evenings playing a game around a table and laughing with family into the wee hours.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 01:33 PM

Polly put the kettle on..

Hi, David:

Always plenty of room at the table. Good for you and your wife for being foster parents... a noble, extremely demanding responsibility to take. Not without its rewards, as you have discovered.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: David C. Carter
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 01:21 PM

Hi there Jerry,a pretty crowded table you got here,hope you got enough chairs!I'm sure you do.Things are fast going down hill here at the moment,student strikes,unions calling for a general strike etc.My son Vladimir,goes off to college in the morning, and is back in 20mins.Exams are coming around soon,things are going every which way.Talking of children,one of Vladimir's friends,a real nice kid,lost his parents,the father at Christmas and his mother the following Easter.We became his Foster parents.Fabien was 10 at the time,he's now been with us 9yrs.It wasn't all roses at first,getting to know each other's habits,adjusting etc.But along with Fabien we found a whole new family,his aunts,uncles,their children who took to our own son as one of theirs.We've been all around Europe,over to my friends in London,to my wife's family in Croatia.I can't tell you what he has brought to us as a family.Just wanted to share that with you.Put the kettle on!

David

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: ranger1
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 11:41 AM

Yeah, Jerry. I have to bite my tongue around my sister a lot because of the whole step-parent thing. I love her dearly, but she falls squarely into the evil "step-mother" category. And she can't figure out why the kids act up around her. When they're out with me, I introduce them as "this is my niece/nephew." I don't have any kids of my own, but I am blessed with twelve wonderful nieces and nephews on my side of the family and three on Jason's. Some of them are related by blood, some aren't, and I don't care. I love 'em all and wish I got to see all them more.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 11:27 AM

Hey, Ranger:

Yeah, I'm not much into step-folks. One of the things that please me is that my son Pasha from Ruth's first marriage introduces me as his father. I refer to him as my son, and it has felt natural from the beginning for us, even though he was in his late 40's when Ruth and I were married. He was kinda an instant son. The folks at the bank say, "Your son was in here the other day," and that's sweet too because Pasha is black and last time I checked, I was white. Our daughter Dee from Ruth's first marriage has always introduced me as "This is my Mother's husband." That's fine, too. Whatever people honestly feel is fine with me. But, the other night when we were out somewhere, she introduced us as "This is my Mother, and this is Pops." I liked that. I'll take "Pops" any day. Beats Step-Pops.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: ranger1
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 10:32 AM

On the subject of fine folks raising kids not theirs by biology, I would like to thank my steps for being such wonderful people. When I speak of my parents, it usually means my mom and my step-dad. A wonderful guy who wasn't particularly into having kids but took raising us like a duck to water. When people ask him about kids, he always answers: "I have two daughters." There's never any mentions of us being his step-kids, we're his kids.

My step-mom was also a fantastic person and what she was doing with my dad, I never did figure out. But I'm sure glad she was there. It made weekend visits not only tolerable but also fun. She's been dead for 10 years now, and I still miss her very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: jimmyt
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 10:33 PM

Jerry I only love singing bass on Do-wop. Otherwise,I rather enjoy inner harmony parts and baritone is great for my tastes! sounds like you are doing great with your CDs COngrats   jimmyt

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 10:27 PM

Yeah, it would be great to sing together at the Getaway, Jimmy. Even if it does mean that you get to sing bass. I'm pretty good at filling holes in the harmony, though and content to do that.

By the by, I've got a batch of Gospel Messenger CDs about ready... as soon as I find out the composer of one of the songs, I'll be ready to print the booklet and back. I already have a batch of CDs recorded, with labels printed on the CDs. I'm hoping to see who holds the copyright on the song tomorrow. I certainly want to give songwriters due credit. If I pay royalties, they'll end up getting a check for a cool $1.63 six months from now when they add up..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: jimmyt
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 10:22 PM

Hi All,

Nice to be here at the table to talk a bit! I have had a very trying day and I would like to add to the harmony discussion but if you don't mind, I will just drink a glass of wine and reflect on you all a bit til I gather my thoughts. Jerry and Ron and Naemanson and Ebbie and BIllybob seem to make a good table full and a vast source of info on music and harmony. I will be back soon to write a bit. We may all meet at getaway and if we do, I want to sing the great chorus, Farther Along that Jerry and I discussed one night on the phone! I can hear the harmonies ringing right now, and yes, Ron, D is a fine key! grin

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 03:38 PM

Plenny a room at the table. How many people have raised discarded kids from their children or relatives? That kind of loving commitment is staggering to me. In a way, it seems even more of a lifetime generous act than raising your own children.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: billybob
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 03:32 PM

Thanks Jerry, bet it will be a Grand grandchild,it will be our first and we are over the moon,
we always had a problem for mothers day as in the UK it is always the same sunday in Lent so the date changes year by year, but we always had to buy an extra card and save till May for Billys mother in Pennsauken.I was always worried that I would put the card away somewhere safe and miss the day!I have to admit it did happen ocasionally,
Great idea about Surrogate Mums day, maybe we should have a day for everyone who loves kids that would include mums,dads, grandparents ,uncles, aunts and numerous friends and family.I was on my own when the kids were young before I met Billy and I have to say that the best friends I had were from folk clubs and morris teams and they all became very supportive to my daughter and son,many of them came to my daughters wedding and indeed played during the wedding.
These friendships have grown over 35 years and now I find are continuing in Mudcat,best they all draw up a chair at this table?

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 03:04 PM

I'm sure that it will be a Grand child, billybob.

You got me nervous about Mother's Day... it's not until May 14th, here. Can't forget me Mum..

I raised my two sons alone. That still don't make me a Mum, though.
Maybe they should have Surrogate Mums Day for all those who raised kids what didn't have a Mum around.

Maybe I'll e-mail Hallmark..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: billybob
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 01:57 PM

Sitting at my table with a glass of wine bemoaning the fact that my iron just blew up and the pile of ironing is far too high,So I thought I would look in at the mudcat table and Ebbie and Jerry just made me put things in perspective!I have snowdrops in the garden, snow is forcast here in East Anglia, but it is the spring equinox and summer will come soon.Mothers Day here in the uk next Sunday Gerry , makes me feel so much for that young mans mother.Must count my blessings, all the family coming home on Sunday and a grand child on the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 11:21 PM

Thanks for sharing that, Ebbie:

You know, the nice thing about this thread is that there is no such thing as thread drift. I started this not as a nostalgia thread (although God Knows, I've done more than my share of nostalgia-mongering in my day.) It's a "sitting at the kitchen table, talking about whatever comes to mind kind of a thread, so everything is equally valid to talk about. I really appreciate the specific threads, and have learned an enormous amount from them. (Tonight I printed my first label on a CD for my Gospel Messengers CD and am ready to go into production.) I don't know that I could have done that without all of the help from my friends in here.

But, this is just a nice, late-night kinda thread. I just got off the phone after talking with one of my sons for almost an hour and a half. I hadn't heard from him since Christmas and was concerned about him. Turns out, he's going through a lot of stress at work and has been wiped out emotionally by all the turmoil. Our conversation was very much a kitchen table kind of talk... minus the kitchen table.

I'm so sorry to hear what happened up your way, Ebbie. That's a hard loss to deal with. Oddly, it brought back memories of a tragedy where I worked. A young man (early 30's) who was a beloved Boy Scout leader of a pack sponsored by the place where I worked was accused of sexually molesting young boys, years earlier. His current pack stood up for him as character witnesses, but a couple of adults came forward saying that he had molested them several years earlier. When it became clear that it was going to be made public and taken to trial, the man who worked for me committed suicide. Hung himself in his Mother's garage where he lived. His Mother came out and found him. Some tragedies defy any rational explanation. They just hurt. There's no sense in trying to figure out "why." You just have let the pain out, release it and try to comfort each other. It sounds like that's what you and your friends did, Ebbie. Good on you!

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 10:29 PM

Whew. Had an emotional day so it feels good to be back here. Yes, I'd be happy for a cuppa. Thanks.

Today we had a memorial celebration for the long years and many events that this community lost a week ago. It was called McPhetres Hall, attached to a church that was also used for music. Gold Street Music, our new folk club, was born and nurtured there, along with many other events for more than two generations. Scarcely a person in Juneau does not have a connection with that hall.

It all went up in flames last Sunday in the early morning. Nothing was saved and it moils the heart and mind to see it today. About the only thing left intact is the three story chimney rearing its bleak head. There is a tall chain link fence around the site while the investigators do their thing. The church was built in 1895; the community hall some forty years later. Everything was made of wood, of course, as befits this forested land and everything was tinder dry.

Today there were many testimonials and reminiscenses from the audience, interspersed with 10 or so live music sets. It was all well done and each song was appropriate, including a song still in process by our resident bluesman, Pat Henry. He sang that the building is gone, it's gone, but the church still stands...

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 07:52 PM

In an informal situation (fortunately, that's the vast majority of them), somebody who's not sure what key he or she sings a given song in can hum either a snatch or maybe a full verse of a song before actually starting--by the end of the verse, instrumentalists can virtually always figure out the key. In a large portion of country songs, for instance, the key is the note sung on the last word sung in a chorus.

Then after instrumentalists do figure out the key, they may ask the singer to just go up or down a half step (particularly going up to C (no sharps or flats) from B (5 sharps--not the choice of fiddlers, for instance)--though Bill Monroe, I understand insisted on singing a awful lot in B (just to be cantankerous?--or to test his sidemen?--who knows?)

I've always thought that adjusting a half-step should be no problem for a singer. A full step--that's a different story.

But if you want instrumental accompaniment, it's eminently reasonable that the singer should be guided onto a specific key (not in between keys)--if he or she has no idea what key they sing a song in.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 03:58 PM

Don't feel bad, Naemanson: I often don't know what key I sing songs in either.

An interesting obesrvation. When a new person joins the Men's Chorus that I sing in, the Director asks them to sing a song, and then he figures out what key they're singing in. He says that that's their key... just as Ron's key seems to be D. Whe I questioned him on that, because I sing in several different keys, depending on the range of the particular song, he said that every singer has one key that's "their" key. So, I went back to my list of songs that the Gospel Messengers sing, to see if there was any validity to his generality. What I found was:

I sing songs in G, A,C,D, E and F (I don't seem to do any songs in B, but tha'ts probably because it's awkward plays a song in B on guitar. (Although Charlie Christian did The Blues In B.)

Our bass singer Joe sings in E, F, A & B

Frankie, (another baritone like me) sings songs in A, B, C and D.

Maybe it's because we all have a pretty large range. All of us can sing bass, baritone or second tenor on most songs. Joe is our best bass singer, although I sing bass when Joe is singing some of his leads. Frankie is our best tenor, although he is basically a baritone, but I sing second tenor when Frankie is singing lead. And Frankie has a fine falsetto, which he sings, except occasionally when he's singing the lead and I sing a passable, but not great falsetto to get above him.

With a trio, you do what you gotta do..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Naemanson
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 03:24 PM

As an uneducated singer that is a problem I have run into time and time again. Musicians who know waht they are doing tend to ask what key I use for a song. But I don't know! My music comes from the heart and comes out of me at a key that sounds good in my head and fits into my vocal range.

Which brings up another point. Music must be one of those areas where the practitioner doesn't need to know what he's doing to succeed. There are plenty of successful (i.e., making a living on music) singers out there who don't know one key from another. They depend on their co-musicians to tell them. I can't point fingers because I am one of those people but then, I've never tried to make a living with music.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 12:33 PM

Jerry--

You're right about how important it is for instrumentalists to know what key the singer is in. If I'm acccompanying I always ask before the singer starts. As a singer, I always tell everybody before I start.

But it's a real problem, I'm sure, when the singer is going up against electric instruments who are determined to play in their own key.    Basically the singer has no chance.

I have a recording by Milton Brown (I think it's "Garbage Man") where the band is playing in an entirely different key from Milton--for at least a whole verse. It's hilarious--but probably wasn't intended to be so for that reason.

If the singer doesn't know what key he or she sings in, that has to be ironed out before the song starts.

I don't have a wonderful range. Without falsetto --(thanks to the Beach Boys my falsetto is strong)--I wouldn't be in any choral group. So when I lead a song I usually tell people "I sing in 2 keys, D and probably D". And in fact, it usually is D. So when it's going to be in G or A, I warn people. Then there's "Faded Love". Though a lot of recordings change keys at the chorus so the singer can sing it, I think it's much better if you can stay in the same key.   I've figured out that I can sing the whole song in one key--but only if the key is F (not instrumentalists' favorite key). But at least guitarists are usually willing to use capos. I can play it on the viola and sing it--in F. And people are willing to let me do it--fortunately for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 03:44 PM

Not being able to "hear" the key of a song is a problem that is not limited to singers, by the way. In the last couple of years I've had the painful experience of hearing musicians blithely accompanying singers, playing in a different key. In black churches, it is commonplace for a singer or a group to get up and start singing, unaccompanied. It's the job of the instrumentalists to figure out what key they're singing in, and add the accompaniment. There are two men... one very short who plays electric bass, and one tall and thin who plays "lead" guitar. I keep coming across them. When the singers launch in to a new song, they quickly figure out a key that they can play in and they're off and running. Never mind that it isn't the key that the people are singing in. They are so transfixed by their guitars that they rarely even look up, other than to look at each other. Meanwhile, the singers are left twisting in the wind. I've seen this happen so many times in the last couple of years that I am convinced that they simply cannot hear that they are playing in the wrong key. They're nice enough guys when you talk to them. Just oblivious.

Can you teach someone how to find their own harmony? I know I couldn't. I've been a teacher for long stretches of my life, but I know that I don't have the education to do it. I don't even know how you'd go about it. Seems like it's more productive for all of us to discover where our gifts lie and develop them. And where they don't lie. I could never be a good dancer because I'm not graceful enough. But I can sing harmony...

Ya takes what ya gets and does the best ya can with it.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: billybob
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 02:40 PM

see you there Ron, looking forward to meeting you and all the other mudcatters.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 10:55 AM

Billy Bob--

Hope to see you at the Middle Bar. That must be one of the absolute best things about Sidmouth--and some of the best sings in the world. And I love all the Middle Bar traditions. As far as I'm concerned the Middle Bar is what not just pub singing but folk singing is all about.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: billybob
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 08:55 AM

Ron
you are so right about the charm of Cape May,the other thing I love about it (being English) is that few English tourists find it,and it is so unspoilt.We go there when we visit Billys folks in Pennsauken and one sister has a beach house at Wildwood.You are right about so little time , we have not been back to the states for thanksgiving for two years.Have   not been to Sidmouth for 15 years but have just booked to go this summer and 6 of my cousins are booked into the same pub,Hope they have a big table for our family reunion.The main reason for going is that I promised Dave Bryant I would join in with the middle bar singers singing "The leaf" (whats the life of a man) in his memory.Now there was a harmony singer!

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 06:36 AM

I too learned harmony singing at my mother's knee, or rather, at her side, in church. I remember being very young, and noticing that she wasn't singing the melody of the hymns, but was singing something that sounded very beautiful to my 6-year-old ears. So I just joined in and sang with her- I remember her startled glance and her smile- a tremendous incentive to listen more and try to figure out how music worked.
I've been singing harmony ever since! I never really knew what I was doing until I got a university degree in music- but even that didn't take the spontaneous joy from me when singing.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 11:04 PM

Jerry-

I've already said a bit about harmony but I can always find more to say--it's a passion with me. Luckily I've always found it pretty easy to make up harmonies--or, perhaps just as significant, to realize when I'd best listen a bit more before trying to do it. Suppose it's the old nature/nurture split. I was lucky enough to get it from both. A lot of musical exposure early--and I gravitated to harmony pretty quick. Having some piano, I'm sure, helps, since you frequently hear harmonies in what you play with the left hand, and eventually, with the right hand too. I've been playing the viola for quite a while (though not seriously for a long time--haven't been in any orchestra since college.) You better believe with the viola you have to get used to playing harmonies--about the only melody I can recall for viola in classical music (aside from Berlioz' Harold In Italy, where the viola is the solo instrument)--(take that, you viola denigrators!)--is in the second movement of Beethoven's 7th Symphony. But I just love being part of the musical texture.

I've also had a bit of theory--not enough to understand all the threads about theory I've seen on Mudcat--but enough to be dangerous. A bit of theory sure does help in choral groups--you can tell from the accidentals--now Bach's in D major, now in G minor, now in F major. That way it's not just note, note, note--you can see how the harmonic progressions go--and it makes the music much easier to learn.


Then on top of that, I've been singing in groups for over 25 years--all different sorts of groups, and different sorts of music--madrigals, Sacred Harp, doo-wop, classical, Gershwin, Irving Berlin etc., bluegrass, sea chanteys, lots of church music--and I love lots of other types of vocal music--including Bulgarian women's groups, 30s and 40s calypso, lots of country duets, early jazz, Western swing, lots of black gospel, Sephardic--the list goes on. I think, though I have no evidence for this, that the more types of music you like, sing, and listen to, the more you understand how harmonies work in various types of music --and it helps you put them together quickly--and change super-quick when you realize you guessed wrong.

But you also need a good ear--and I lucked out there also.

What do you think--do you think people can be trained to learn to make up harmonies? I don't see how you'd go about doing it. Somehow you have to hear them--how could you instruct somebody in that?

Hope we get more comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 10:47 PM

That's interesting, Naemanson... Being a baritone, when most lead singers of popular music were tenors, I found myself singing harmony a lot. I couldn't hit the high notes on some of the songs. I think that I really got a feel for singing harmony by learning harmonies to Christmas carols as a kid. My Mother, my two older sisters and a handful of neighbors would go out Christmas caroling when I was a kid. (Now there's a lost tradition for you.) Byt the time rhythm and blues came out, I found myself singing harmony as often as I sang lead when I was listening to the radio.

One thing I've realized is that people who sing tenor (2nd tenor in a choir) almost always are singing the melody. They can be great singers, but have experience singing harmony. The first two tenors we had in our group had no ear for harmony at all... they were fine singers, but hadn't sung harmony most of their life.

I notice, by the way, that most of the baritones in the male chorus I sing in learn the baritone harmony by heart at a practice, but when the next practice rolls around, they've slipped back down to singing the melody.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Naemanson
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 06:11 PM

Just coffee, thanks. Yes, cream and sugar.

I can make up a harmony if the tune is simple enough. But I cannot do it easily. Usually I need to be taught a harmony and then I find I slip into unison singing if I'm not careful. I think it drove my fellow singers in Roll & Go crazy, at least those who could easily do their harmonies.

I even had trouble singing the melody line of one song a fifth higher than the lead. I kept wanting to drop down to his range. I've always attributed it to years spent singing with the radio on recordings.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 09:41 AM

Had an interesting kitchen-table conversation yesterday. Except it was over the phone. I was talking with Jonathan, the director of the Greater New Haven Male Fellowship Chorus that I sing in. I've been looking for a tenor for my gospel quartet now for well over half a year, with no success. I probably know, or have contact with at least a couple hundred singers in various groups and choruses, and I can't come up with one tenor. My friend Jonathan is very enthusiastic about my three man quartet and called to book us to do a concert at his church. I'd talked to him before about finding a tenor, and brought the subject up again. He said that I was going to have a hard time finding someone, and couldn't recommend anyone from his male chorus, or any of the other choirs and churches where he plays. He saw the difficulty in finding someone who has a natural ear for harmony, and can stick with it. Before I started singing in a male chorus ten years ago, I assumed that all singers could hear harmony. Man, was I wrong! Hearing harmony is a gift. Almost all of the singers in male choruses I've been involved in have to be taught their harmony part, and if they don't read music, they have a terrible time retaining it. Most of the baritones sing the melody, because that's what they hear. In the baritone sections in the two male choruses I sing in, half the time there are more baritones singing the melody than the baritone harmony. That's a puzzlement to me.

As long as we're just sitting around the table, I thought I'd find out what your experiences are in singing harmony (if you're a singer.) I might add that some of the greatest singers I know can't sing harmony.

Some of the greatest singers I know can't hear the key that the song is in.

Some of the greatest singers I know have no sense of timing.

That makes me greatful that I'm not one of the greatest singers, because I have always been able to hear harmony, can tell if I'm singing in a different key than the accompniment, and know when to come in on the next line. I don't take any credit for it. I did nothing to acquire the ability. I just have it, through no great effort on my part. It amazes me to hear singers confidently singing in a different key than the accompaniment, or thinking that they are singing harmony, when they're singing the melody. And can't hear the difference.

Any thoughts on this?

Have another cup of coffee.

Got cold beer in the fridge..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 11:31 PM

Billy Bob--

You were talking earlier about Cape May. I really like it too--associate it with great birding and with charming Victorian houses (charming--not in the realtor's translation, meaning "needs a lot of work" but actually full of charm.) Really have to get back there. But admittedly Sidmouth in festival week has more to offer than Cape May, to say the least, especially to a music addict --so Sidmouth is where we try to go every year. Hate to miss it ever. And there's only so much time.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 07:15 PM

I've been enjoying this thread, just sitting in my chair at a corner of the table, cradling my cup of tea, listening in on conversations as I work my way through a nasty cold.
Kitchen tables haven't featured much in my life for many years- as a child, it was where I sat among beloved grownups and just listened and learned, not comprehending everything but enjoying the company (much as I've been doing in this thread).
In later years, it's been the couch that's the center of the house- where I (still) cuddle my kids (even though they're both taller than me!), where my closest friends and I share a woolly throw over our toes as we confide and shoot the breeze. My kitchen/living room is all one big room, which might be why it's so.
When I was young, my mom's best friend had a couch in her old Vermont kitchen - it's still there, or was the last time I visited a few years ago. It was the spot for shelling peas, taking the weight off the feet after kneading the bread, sharing a cup of tea after a meal- I've always loved having the couch in the kitchen.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 07:44 PM

Gads. Naemanson, you make heat and humidity sound postively idyllic.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Col K
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 07:13 PM

Thanks Jerry for starting this wonderful thread ,and thanks to all those who have contributed so far.
I have very happy memories of sitting at Jerry and Ruth's kitchen table and singing with the Messengers the first time and just generally chatting one my second visit. I also remember with great pleasure going with you and Leadfingers to your last rehearsal with Derrick before he left for Florida. That evening was also very special because of the love for each other that was there that night.

What is it about kitchen tables----- all the best parties happen around them, never in the room that the hosts expect you to use.
I hope that one day I will be able to share your kitchen table again Jerry and also have the chance to share kitchen tables with many others, both here on the cat and with many other friends all over the world.
All the best,
Colin