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BS: On Same-Sex Marriages

Amos 26 Jul 08 - 03:30 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 26 Jul 08 - 12:54 PM
GUEST,number 6 26 Jul 08 - 08:01 AM
Emma B 26 Jul 08 - 05:58 AM
akenaton 26 Jul 08 - 04:11 AM
Amos 26 Jul 08 - 04:02 AM
akenaton 26 Jul 08 - 03:46 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 26 Jul 08 - 02:51 AM
Don Firth 25 Jul 08 - 06:15 PM
Ebbie 25 Jul 08 - 05:51 PM
Don Firth 25 Jul 08 - 05:30 PM
dick greenhaus 25 Jul 08 - 03:33 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Jul 08 - 03:05 PM
Amos 25 Jul 08 - 02:39 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Jul 08 - 01:43 PM
Amos 25 Jul 08 - 09:23 AM
akenaton 25 Jul 08 - 03:00 AM
Don Firth 24 Jul 08 - 06:50 PM
akenaton 24 Jul 08 - 04:14 PM
Amos 24 Jul 08 - 03:42 PM
akenaton 24 Jul 08 - 03:22 PM
Amos 24 Jul 08 - 01:29 PM
Emma B 24 Jul 08 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Jul 08 - 08:02 AM
akenaton 24 Jul 08 - 03:28 AM
GUEST,number 6 24 Jul 08 - 01:04 AM
katlaughing 24 Jul 08 - 12:42 AM
fumblefingers 23 Jul 08 - 11:43 PM
Amos 23 Jul 08 - 08:10 PM
Murray MacLeod 23 Jul 08 - 05:42 PM
akenaton 23 Jul 08 - 05:19 PM
GUEST 23 Jul 08 - 05:16 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Jul 08 - 04:15 PM
Emma B 23 Jul 08 - 11:50 AM
katlaughing 23 Jul 08 - 11:47 AM
akenaton 23 Jul 08 - 11:04 AM
katlaughing 23 Jul 08 - 10:07 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Jul 08 - 04:48 AM
GUEST,number 6 22 Jul 08 - 02:16 PM
Amos 22 Jul 08 - 02:02 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Jul 08 - 12:04 AM
dick greenhaus 14 Jul 08 - 09:59 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Jul 08 - 09:50 PM
Donuel 14 Jul 08 - 04:29 PM
Emma B 14 Jul 08 - 04:23 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Jul 08 - 03:16 PM
Ruth Archer 14 Jul 08 - 02:59 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Jul 08 - 02:51 PM
dick greenhaus 14 Jul 08 - 02:44 PM
Emma B 14 Jul 08 - 02:41 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 03:30 PM

How enlightening, GfS!! Stunning insight. Explain some more!!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 12:54 PM

Love, sex, and relationships, are not the same thing


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 08:01 AM

Emmma what they gave to the world was 'love'

Yes ... love (what a wonderful thing, that cannot be denied) ... love between 2 men, 2 women, or between a man and a women

We need more love in this world and the hell to what religions say, governments say or the bigoted populace will say.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 05:58 AM

I watched an interesting TV programme last night about the development of classical music in post war Britain

One of the greatest contributions was from the personal and creative relationship between Benjamin Britten and Peter Pears which lasted until Britten's death in 1976

Maybe there was no human issue from the 'marriage' but what a great deal of happiness and pleasure the creations of this enforced clandestine relationship gave to the world of music.


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 04:11 AM

Do you never sleep Amos!!:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 04:02 AM

The question is not and has never been whether any church should change, Ake.

What a church allows or does not, within limits, is their own business.

Where has anyone said churches should change??

And you are mistasken about the issue if you think that civil rights for one group lessens those rights for another. What kind of a "right" is it to say "What we shall enjoy under law, you shall be forbidden"?


And, finally, why do you say anyone is losing in this matter, other than those who are denied civil status in their relationships?


A


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 03:46 AM

I agree fully with Dick G.
But as our resident "hetrosexual/homosexual activist" says "that is not enough" Church marriage must be redefined!

In other words, religious people must alter their definition of traditional marriage to comply with the homosexual agenda of "normalisation".

Ebbie, Don Firth and Amos, stink of red herrings.
This discussion is not about why people become homosexuals, or if they are born homosexuals....that is another argument.
This discussion was about the rights of one minority, set against the rights of another.....and in my opinion you are all very bad losers...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 02:51 AM

That figure you are referrencing is less that 2%..Now everybody(100%) is claiming to be part of that 2%....go figure...


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 06:15 PM

Exactly so, Ebbie!

In a post way up above, I quoted a gay acquaintance of mine, and I think it merits repeating until it finally sinks in to those who just don't seem to get it:

"From my very early teens, I had girl friends but I felt no physical attraction to girls and women. I did feel physical attraction toward some men. It was not a matter of choice. I did not decide to be gay. After all, considering the prejudice that gays face, not to mention the times one is called 'fag' and 'queer,' and is sometimes actually physically assaulted—who in his right mind would choose to be 'gay'? I had no choice in the matter!"

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 05:51 PM

Don Firth, that is something that often occurs to me. Many, many homosexual people have reported that as early as before the age of 10 they already knew they 'were not like their peers'. It makes no sense whatever to believe that people would choose a lifestyle that exposed them to ridicule, persecution and violence.

When the day comes- and it will - that everyone has no choice but to acknowledge that fact, there will be some red faces. Or there should be.


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 05:30 PM

Oh, I understand just fine, Ake. But if that's what you really maintain, I seriously doubt that you do.

I would want my son (who is in a perfectly happy heterosexual relationship, by the way) to lead a happy and fulfilling life, whatever he conceives that to be, even if I didn't necessarily agree with some of his choices.

But choice is not the issue. There is substantial scientific evidence that there is a biological connection (the size of a particular lobe on the hypothalamus) with gender orientation, and it is not a matter of choice. Many biologists consider gender orientation to be as inborn as eye color.

Objecting to your children seeking happiness in life by striving to fulfill their own natures is hardly an expression of parental love.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 03:33 PM

The real problem, of course, is the government's muddling of religious ceremonies and civil rights. ALL civil unions should be dealt with by governmental agencies--priests or rabbis or anybody wlse notwithstanding. Marriages, whether within some organized religion or not, should not convey ANY legal rights--just whatever spiritual ones that may be involved.

Won't happen, of course, but it's really the only thing that makes sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 03:05 PM

Huh???


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 02:39 PM

Your opinions about where it comes from are your own, GFS, not anything binding or even empirical, as far as I can see. ANd your sarcasm about the defining boundaries of the social contract would do better if you replaced them with some of your actual, and often scinitllating, intelligence.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 01:43 PM

...Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are closer to our formative goals. ....Well I guess homosexuality brings forth a lot of life, eh, Amos???
Neither, does it come from happiness.


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 09:23 AM

Whooof!!

Seems to me plain as pie that you would not stand for the basic civil right of loving partnership to be denied.

So I think the point has some bearing.

Society is not a reproductive machine in its first purpose. Life, liberty and the pursuit ofhappiness are closer to our formaticve goals. Why is, then, one branch of happiness to be blessed, and another which has no less good to impart, and brings no more and often less harm, to be denied? Seems awful lopsided to me.

One may dislike the fact that some members of our species are geared to same-sex relations instead of hetero relations, but that is a fact to be faced, not a wish to be unwished. It's a given. Why discriminate against it?


A


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 03:00 AM

Maybe you just don't know what love means Don.


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 06:50 PM

"Whether or not my son was homosexual, would have no bearing on my views regarding the issues discussed here."

"If any of my boys came and told me that they were homosexual, I know for a fact that I would love them no less."

??

Sorry, Ake, this is not an attempt to take a shot at you personally. But as a father myself, I'm just trying to reconcile these two comments.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 04:14 PM

It's OK Amos. Iknow very well what you were trying to do and it was quite unworthy of you.
I may be uneducated, but I am not unintelligent.

Whether or not my son was homosexual, would have no bearing on my views regarding the issues discussed here.

Attempts have been made from the start of this thread, to turn the discussion into a personal slanging match. I have tried to avoid this throughout and keep the discussion objective.

As I said earlier, it has been a good discussion, many views aired in a (mainly) reasonable manner. Thank you for starting the thread and as you started it, I feel it's only fair that you should have the "last word" ............Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 03:42 PM

Ake:

Well, suppose one did, and you, rightfully and manfully, loved him none the less.

Would the civic benefits of a life-long commitment to a partner then seem to you wrong for him to receive from the community? I mean simply the usual legal benefits--insurance and mutual representation and so on -- that are the civic implications of the married state. Why would that seem wrong?

Pardon me if I seemed a little angry; these people who yell into tunnels about the world being tunnel-shaped sometimes get on my nerves. I did not mean it as a punishment, but as an invitation to imagine a different point of view.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 03:22 PM

"As a reward for your narrow-mindedness, I wish for you that your children, like Cheney's daughter, come to you to announce they are gay."

Well Amos, you make that sound as if it would be some sort of punishment......perhaps you are not as unbiased as you try to portray.

If any of my boys came and told me that they were homosexual, I know for a fact that I would love them no less.
I'm sorry I had to respond to your remark Amos, I had you down for a bigger man than that. Your remark had absolutely nothing to do with the issue we have been discussing....It was cheap and nasty.

However I still think you're a decent guy underneath....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 01:29 PM

Can't make a distinction between biology and doctrine? You guys need to get out more if you really think of your somewhat blinkered narrow field of view as "common sense".

We're not talking about the biology of honmosexuality, but of civil rights and what they should comprise. Marriage is not a biological state. To the degree it is sometimes a natural state, it needs no regulation. To the degree it is regulated, it is an artifact of civic agreement, part of a code of rights, priveleges and protocols.

Denying those rights to some members based on apredilection for heterosecuality makes no logical sense, but reflects only the bias of those who have no understanding of the other half. As a reward for your narrow-mindedness, I wish for you that your children, like Cheney's daughter, come to you to announce they are gay.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 01:20 PM

I love this comment quoted by katlaughing on another thread :)

'There is just as much horse sense as ever, but the horses have most of it'


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 08:02 AM

Akenaton: Politically charged??...Who me?????(laughing me arse off). I was thinkin' the political stuff is coming from the same ones who let the political people do their thinkin' for them!!!..Mine(and yours) are just common horse sense...(none of that with the politicos!!)


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 03:28 AM

We've all started to repeat ourselves, so I suppose we will never agree on this subject.
I think this has been an excellent discussion, and hope reason, not any particular opinion, has been the winner......Thanks all... Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 01:04 AM

2 males can kill each other in the heat of war and that is acceptable ... 2 males fall in love and marry ... and that is not?

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 12:42 AM

I am a liberal. SO, I guess I can say Fuck Off and be typical...but what's the use.


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: fumblefingers
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 11:43 PM

Marriage, as an arrangement between a man and a woman, has been around for thousands of years and is practiced globally. To redefine it just because homosexuals demand it is not a good enough reason for most folks in the world. If; however, the homosexual lobby can convince the entire world to redefine marriage to include homosexual relationships and redefine buggery as normal, then I'll accept it too.


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 08:10 PM

AKe:

I am seriously missing something here. In what way is anything "imposed" on you if Rick and Robert want to swear life-long togetherness and make a civil condition out of it?

Are you required to attend? Watch the festivities? IS your mind so out of control that the thought makes you imagine things you find disgusting against your will? How does it add the slightest jot to your burden to grant tolerance to individual choices in private matters?
And if you think sexual preference is not a private matter, why are you prying into it when it should be a private matter?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 05:42 PM

A marriage license DOES NOT require the couple to have sex, and it should be no concern of the state whether they do or do not

actually, John, it is a concern of the State, or at least the branch of the State represented by the Department of Immigration.

I can still remember the sense of shock and disbelief I felt when asked by an immigration officer at my final interview "So, has the marriage been consummated ?"

My initial reaction was to ask him if he wanted a tally, but I contented myself with a simple "Yes " ...


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 05:19 PM

Sorry that was my post.


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 05:16 PM

I hear what you say Kat, but the "Liberal Left", who are in the main a bunch of hypocrits, push minority agendas for all they are worth, without regard for the opinions of others.

This is very well illustrated by many of the posts here.
Some of the most vicious statments have been made by so called "Liberals"


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 04:15 PM

...And what do you base yours on???...Feelings?????????


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Emma B
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 11:50 AM

Ones personal views on 'sexual matters' should not be imposed on others who don't share your viewpoint either ....or at least that's what my professional counselling course taught!


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 11:47 AM

...ones political ideology and views on sexual matters should never be mixed.

Ake, if only the Republicans(US) believed that!


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 11:04 AM

I agree Guest....kinda puts me in mind of the last days of Rome!
Or is it the lunatics taking over the asylum?

Problem is, the whole subject has become so politically charged.
"You can't be a real leftie unless you agree with homosexual marriage"......Its absolute madness, ones political ideology and views on sexual matters should never be mixed.

You just keep doin' your stuff, you have helped to resuscitate the dormant brains of Mudcat....good on you!....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 10:07 AM

I truly feel for the couples you supposedly counsel.

biLL, thanks for that! Kudos to St. John, indeed!!


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 04:48 AM

"Rosie O'Donnel's Gay Cruise Ship".....Now that's a phrase that conjures up both hilarity, and how far we have declined, as a civilization. The "H.M.S. Rolling Rollicking Roger"...When I think of it, I couldn't blast it loud enough..."Get Real!!!!....Get Real, Seriously!!!!"


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 02:16 PM

Rosie O'Donnel's gay cruise ship docked in town (Saint John, N.B.) last week ... about a dozen couples took the opportunity of our Canadian liberal (civilized) laws to wed here. The city even presented a commerative plaque to the newly weds.

Here's a CBC article on it ....

kudos to Saint John !!


biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Amos
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 02:02 PM

The attitudes and opinions of a bunch of pre-historic agrarian Palestinians, Israelites, Canaanites, and Moabites, etc., has about as much bearing on these issues as the opinion of WIle E. Coyote.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 12:04 AM

Dick, The question of scriptures was posed to me, from another post. If you would have read earlier my post, that she was referring to, you'd see that I was very objective about the two, and the distinction of legal, as part, and those who have religious issues, as part, of society,with it. Please try not to misquote me, then champion what you thought I said. She is the one who posted several scriptures, that were also out of context, of which, I sorta let go by. It wasn't the issue, of topic, that I was dealing with, or even talking about.


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 09:59 PM

GfromS-
What the hell has scripture to do with civil rights? If "civil union" conveyed the same legal rights and privileges as "marriage", the discussion would be a quibble over words. It doesn't and it isn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 09:50 PM

Being as the scripture issue, is behind us(which I was merely answering a question, and I wasn't the one who originally brought it up), I'd like to clarify and point out, that there is a difference in an 'opinion' , based on an emotional response, a position, based on 'political correctness', and a definition, based on the meaning of terms or words. The post I gave was a definition. Based on just the definition, 'same sex marriage' doesn't make sense. A re-defining of terms would, as I posted, would better serve the matter. If one were to say the sky is 'blue', should we change that attribute and truth, because the other colors of the spectrum in the rainbow 'feel' discriminated against? if there is any doubt about it...the sky is blue, rain is wet, the sun appears to be yellow from here, rainbows are multi-colored, and marriage is marriage(a man and a woman). If homosexuals, wish another sort of union, with different attributes, then call it whatever it is..but marriage it is not!


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 04:29 PM

DNA Chimera criminals would make a nice touch to some murder mysteries.

As for same old sex marriages, if there is something new please pass it on.


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Emma B
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 04:23 PM

Thank you Ruth I feared that GfS had not 'comprehended' my previous post.

Please spare me any further 'clarification' GfS - I'm out of this thread


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 03:16 PM

Ruth, Being as I am not a citizen of the U.K, I find it inappropiate for me, to comment in the ins and outs of the hiring practices of British or U.K. law. ..Respectfully, Gfs


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 02:59 PM

Can I ask whether scripture is really relevant to this debate? As I pointed out earlier:

1. a civil partnership is NOT a religious ceremony

2. The person in question was not a religious celebrant, she was a civil servant employed to carry out, among other things, civil partnerships.

3. Whether you personally agree with homosexual civil partnership is completely irrelevant - it is enshrined in British law. This person was employed to do a job of work. If someone's religion prevents them from doing their job, they should be doing a different job.


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 02:51 PM

Emma, I have an appointment right now, but when I return, I'll give you some of the scriptures you omitted, The ones Christians usually come up with. But, it is very clear, that in Judeo-Christian beliefs, that homosexuality is a no-no, based on the text in their scripture. I didn't make it up..its plainly there. Will post it for you when I return.

P.S. I also mentioned that I really didn't want to spend much time on this subject, but for you....I will, just for clarification purposes. Ok?


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 02:44 PM

Since, in about half the cases, marriage is merely a prerequisite for divorce, I fail to see what the fuss is about.


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Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Emma B
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 02:41 PM

' the institution of marriage was for the above said purpose'

'Perhaps you missed this the first time, of skimming it, and not comprehending it.' - no I didn't and I resent your (usual) patronizing condescension.

'In fact, there is surprisingly little discussion in the Hebrew or New Testament scriptures about what a marriage actually is.
A search for the words 'marriage', 'marry' or 'wife' in the Bible yield numerous verses. Yet virtually none of these discusses exactly what a marriage is

There are cases where the emphasis is on making sure the Israelites do not marry foreigners such as in Nehemiah 13:27 "Shall we then listen to you and do all this great evil and act treacherously against our God by marrying foreign women?

There are also instances where a marriage is seen as a way of forming alliances as in 2 Chronicles 18:1

Leviticus 18:18 instructs men that "you shall not take a woman as a rival to her sister, uncovering her nakedness while her sister is still alive."

In the vast majority of cases where it is discussed in the Hebrew scriptures marriage is presented as a rather one-sided transaction. Daughters are usually seen as objects 'given' in marriage by their fathers. Genesis 34:21 states "let us take their daughters in marriage, and let us give them our daughters". '


'Though the mores,and values have changed....' yes they have !


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