Where have the audiences gone?

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Banjiman
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 01:35 PM

Snail,

I would like to hope not, unfortunately I've met one or two, some of whom run folk clubs. These clubs usually have very small attendances and the attendees tend to frown a lot....especially when I get my banjo out......even if I'm doing "trad" songs or tunes.

They then tend to say things like...we're really a traditional singers club........ completely devaluing one's efforts.

Clearly they have a perfect right to run their club along any lines they want.....but we're highly unlikely to go back or recommend them to anyone else. Hence audiences dwindle.

These clubs are the minority..... I can think of 2 that I have been to in the north of England. But yes, unfortunately they do exist.

Paul

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 01:27 PM

Stewart,

Who created the arts council? What kind of support does it have from the venue, local government, community, etc?    Do you think they are doing adequate publicity?

The club I work with, the Hurdy Gurdy, partnered with a local town and we are now putting on concerts in a gorgeous 171 seat theater. It might be small for some artists, but we find it just about right. Working with the town, our rate to rent the space and sound techs gives us some money left over to do publicity. However, we rely on "free" publicity where we can.   Establishing an e-mail list is critical. You can create a "buzz" without spending a dime!

Getting the word out is probably the most critical aspect of building and audience - and letting an audience know that this type of music is out there.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Stewart
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 01:22 PM

I think this thread that I started has just about run its course.
And its course has run a far direction from what I first imagined.
I'm not concerned about folk music versus any other kind of music,
traditional versus contemporary, and certainly not folk clubs
of which we don't have any as such here in Seattle.

We have a very nice facility (concert hall, community center) here in north Seattle, which we'd like to utilize through a newly-formed small arts council. We would like to bring local musicians and the community together for the benefit of all. But it's a struggle to get going.

We've had some great concerts - for example, a local Klezmer group of nationally known musicians (have even played on The Prairie Home Companion show) played to a small, but very enthusiastic audience. Also two fantastic young local fiddle/violin players who are probably headed for national recognition - a young lady who plays old-timey and Irish fiddle with a style of a much older and seasoned player, and a young college student playing incredible gypsy-jazz violin with his own band. Again a small, but very enthusiastic audience. But the audiences don't seem to grow.

This could/should be a great community resource, but the immediate community doesn't come out to any extent. People just seem to want to stay at home, can't conceive of local, live music (music is just a commodity to purchase through mp3 players or as background to other activities). They may come out to hear big name, out-of-town stars at outrageous prices because they're told that these people are good. But we just want to connect the community with their own local artists and musicians. Another smaller community-based concert series recently folded due to dwindling audiences.

Many of my musician friends play at the local coffeehouses, sort of like what I experienced (probably won't do that again), playing to three people glued to their laptop computers (one plugged into his own music) and, if lucky, two other friends. Or playing at a local pub to a few other musicians and a room full of half-drunk, noisy bar patrons who probably find the music annoying and have to talk louder to be heard. I really don't see the point of it.

So that's all. I'll let the UK members talk about their folk clubs and definitions of trad music.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 01:20 PM

Jim, I will post it one more time. Either you have forgotten or missed it. Let's start with the dictionary.

Here is one definition from American Heritage:
1. Music originating among the common people of a nation or region and spread about or passed down orally, often with considerable variation. 2. Contemporary music in the style of traditional folk music.

Here is another from Random House:
1. music, usually of simple character and anonymous authorship, handed down among the common people by oral tradition.
2. music by known composers that has become part of the folk tradition of a country or region.

There is a community of people who have created their own tradition in modern times. You can choose not to recognize it, but you just need to get out and look around you to see that "folk music" is a much larger community than you choose to give credit to.

Dick made a very good point. We should be discussing this in other threads. You will surely respond to this and that is your choice. I'd like to get back to the subject.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 01:15 PM

Banjiman

Snail.....please re-read Peace's post before getting defensive. He is referring to people who ONLY like Trad music and don't want to see it progress in any way..... and more importantly just dismiss everything else..

Do these people really exist and if so do they have any influence?

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 01:04 PM

"They are not mythical people. Please do not resort to this kind of argument. Let's keep it as a discussion."
I am constantly being told that the 1954 definition no longer applies because 'people' have changed that definition for a new one - I repeat - who are these people (somebody quoted 64 million not so long ago) and what is now the alternative definition?
If you can't give an alternative - it stands to reaon that the old one still applies.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 01:00 PM

Thanks Dick. My apologies for sharing in the drift.

One thing that has always puzzled me - there are complaints that there are not enough venues supporting traditional music (or even singer-songwriters for that matter), yet when there is something of interest to traditional music fans, they do not seem to come out.   To me it is like the old comment about not voting and then feelign the right to complain about the winner. If you are not participating, how do you expect things to change?

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 12:58 PM

Paul is right, Snail. But then you and I have some 'history' as it were. I don't wish to argue with you. Have your thread.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Banjiman
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 12:47 PM

Snail.....please re-read Peace's post before getting defensive. He is referring to people who ONLY like Trad music and don't want to see it progress in any way..... and more importantly just dismiss everything else.

He is criticising those that are blinkered, not those who like traditional music. I'm sure you don't fall into this category.

Paul

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 12:45 PM

Somehow, this thread has shifted to yet another "what is folk" . How dull.

The question of vanishing audiences is probably worth investigating, though.Maybe we could get back to that.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 12:40 PM

Tradites

So now liking traditional music has become something to be sneered at.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 12:31 PM

GUEST,EricTheOrange

I don't think clubs etc should seek to be fashionable just inviting and not off putting.

Bring us ideas. Make suggestions. Contribute. Don't just whinge about how awful clubs are. I'm sorry, but we can't stop being old much as we'd like to. Tell us what you want. What would bring you in? Folk clubs aren't WOMAD or Warwick Folk, Larmer Tree and Cheltenham Music festivals nor do they pretend to be but they do have a different sort of value.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 12:28 PM

Pip - You know very well that I, and others, have explained it before in other threads.   Then you tell me ignore the dictionary.

To answer your question if any of them are wrong, the answer is everyone except for the third guy on left.   Sorry, but I cannot answer a hypothetical question without hearing the music and observing the setting.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 12:22 PM

Ron, I think asking you to explain your definition of 'folk' is very much part of this discussion - particularly since you're quite willing to turn the question the other way.

Never mind the dictionary for a moment; let's approach this another way. There are lots and lots of performers out there who say that what they're doing is folk, or folk-ish, or folk-and-a-hyphen. Are any of them wrong?

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 11:46 AM

"Who are these mythical people and what is their alternative definition?"

Funk & Wagnells are two.

They are not mythical people. Please do not resort to this kind of argument. Let's keep it as a discussion.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Banjiman
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 11:26 AM

Tradites....yes very good description, I will also be using it.

Paul

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 11:19 AM

"No Jim, I'm just recognizing a definition that is in more common usage than you wish to give credit for. It isn't something that "I" made up, it is a definition that has been used for the music we are discussing for decades. You don't have to accept it, but it exists in this world."
Who are these mythical people and what is their alternative definition?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 10:59 AM

"I'm not sure these generalisations are helpful to the debate"

I do agree, and I was not trying generalize. My comments were for the handful that tend to dominate conversations.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Banjiman
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 10:54 AM

Ron, Peace,

I agree that there are some very intolerant (to anything but Brit trad folk) views expressed by Brits on here....but it is neither universal or exclusive. I'm not sure these generalisations are helpful to the debate.

By the way, I love Crooked Still..... don't know the Mammals at all though. I think there is a lot of good, progessive (but roots based) music coming from your side of the pond......Be Good Tanyas, Stairwell Sisters, Uncle Earl to name but a few.

If I could get this quality of band on at our Folk Club every time, I'm sure I could sell out every month! (O.K so the last sentance might be an attempt to avoid thread drift!).

Paul

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 10:43 AM

Peace,I just LOVE your term "Tradites"!!   I just might steal it, or rather use the oral tradition to process it in the proper folk tradition.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 10:31 AM

That remark was based on what I have seen posted on various Mudcat thread, guys. Just have seen too many people cut down by self-appointed critics who do reviews with THEIR agendas in mind. I do not think that of all Brits. I have too many good Brit friends--and I am of Brit extraction myself--to paint all folks there as whiners for THEIR cause. But look at the history here.

A Canuck does something, many Canuck M'caters support that person. Yes, it's with words, but they mean lots. I see the same when Yanks put something new out. They get support. But let some kid in England use an electric instrument on a song and the Tradites--closely connected in thought to Ned Ludd--slam him/her. Let a person with feet in both worlds add ANYthing to a Trad song and it all of a sudden heralds the end of civilization as we know it.

Case in point: when I see ANY musician putting out his/her work to the public, I damned well FIND something good to say. In some cases it's more difficult than others, but it's worth the effort to help a fellow(ette) worker in the music world. I seldom see that from England.

As a btw, it was a BRIT who first drew my attention to this.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 10:31 AM

Paul - rest assured, I KNOW that people like you are out there! I love British folk music (traditional and contemporary) and my playlists for my radio show recognize that. I see a great respect for the traditions, but I also see musicians on your side of the pond NOT being held back by traditions. They embrace the traditions and carry it on - in a fashion that is still contemporary AND respectful (at least in my opinion).    I wish American artists had the same foresight to embrace OUR traditions more. I'm encouraged by what I am seeing in recent years (Mammals, Crooked Still, etc.), but for many years "folk" was a four letter word. That is changing. What comes up won't be your grandparents vision of folk music, but it is indeed folk music in its natural evolution!

Place like Mudcat tend to attract staunch defenders of the tradition, and these are people I admire greatly. Their work has enabled me to enjoy this music.   It does bother me that some of these people seem to thrive on putting up roadblocks and become dictorial in sharing their views.

Thanks for your note Paul - I am glad that you represent the vast majority of music lovers on your side of the Atlantic! Keep it going!!!

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Banjiman
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 10:23 AM

"I think the rest of the world has a different view, which is why a dictionary has a more universal definition for "folk music" - one that is embraced by more.   WOMAD is a great example of how the living tradition of folk music is celebrated."

Ron, I'm a brit but I agree with you....I hope that doesn't mess up your stereotypical description of a Brit Mudcatter!!!! Please don't lump me in with the ultratraddies here!

In transatlantic friendship......

Paul

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 10:12 AM

Eric - I think you shared some brilliant points about WOMAD. Not having had an opportunity to attend, I have only heard good things about the events. They do seem to have a good approach about the presentation and educating the audience without turning it into a college seminar. At the very root, the music is meant to entertain AND to communicate.   The museum-like approach that many people take to it fails to recognize these aspects and only adds to the stereotypes.

Peace, I tend think that the people that post on Mudcat are not typical of the vast majority of Brits. We tend to see the extremists posting here and they come across as having closed minds. In another thread, I tried to get an answer to what their "definition" of folk music was - and while most avoided responding directly, the answers that came back were very ethnocentric to the music of their homeland and dismissive of other traditions. The "sound" that they are accustomed to was really limited to a sterotyped style that grew out of the English folk revival.   

I think the rest of the world has a different view, which is why a dictionary has a more universal definition for "folk music" - one that is embraced by more.   WOMAD is a great example of how the living tradition of folk music is celebrated.

Getting back to the roots of this discussion that was started by someone in Seattle, right here in the USA, I do think that audiences want more from an experience with music.   The old days of sitting in a church basement on folding chairs listening to someone without amplification in an acoustically unfriendly room just doesn't cut it anymore   The music and songs deserve better attention - from both the media, the artist and the venue operator.   

"Trad is Rad" is an expression that the group the Mammals created, and it fits. Groups like Crooked Still are incorporating traditional songs and tunes and remaining true to their own vision. THAT is what the "oral tradition" was all about. It isn't the method but the spirit of WHY it was done that makes a folk song.

Trees are meant to bend and sway with the wind. If they remain steadfast, they will eventually tumble and fall and the trunk will rot away.   Folk music is a living tradition that can swing and sway with the best of them!

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: GUEST,EricTheOrange
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 09:56 AM

MikeofNorthumbria -- I agree. I think many folk festivals are definitely getting the idea. I don't think clubs etc should seek to be fashionable just inviting and not off putting.

Richard Bridge -- you do not like Womad -- fine. Look at how Warwick Folk, Larmer Tree and Chelenham Music festivals present themselves and thei artists, and compare it to your local folk clubs or events.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 09:49 AM

I think too many song writers are 'unschooled' in various types of music (including traditional, however one might define that). I also think too many 'traditionalists' are unschooled in singer-song writers.

I also think the most devisive people on this planet to do with music live in England. You seem to consistently cut each other down. You do NOT support live music. You support YOUR live music. Fuckin' wake up.

When the only tool you have is a hammer, then every problem looks like a nail.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 09:23 AM

"You're still making up your definition (non-definition) as you go along Ron "

No Jim, I'm just recognizing a definition that is in more common usage than you wish to give credit for. It isn't something that "I" made up, it is a definition that has been used for the music we are discussing for decades. You don't have to accept it, but it exists in this world.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 04:51 AM

Eric the Orange: "I'm quite keen to see folk but I've been turned off going to clubs because they seems the province of old (I think most seem past my idea of middle aged) people reliving their younger days."

Hi Eric,

Yes, quite a few folk clubs (though by no means all of them) are like that. Try going to a festival instead.

There was a time, long, long time ago, when large numbers of young – yes YOUNG! – people used to hang out in places where folk music was played and sung. Many of them didn't pay very much attention to it, but it provided a moderately agreeable backing track for their social lives, and they identified with it – up to a point.

Eventually, the crowd moved on, as it always does, but some of us who liked the music for its own sake stayed with it. A few are still here – certainly older, probably not much wiser, but possibly a little better informed. And most of us are delighted when we see younger people taking an interest in the music. However, I'm not praying for the return of the (so called)good old days when folk (so called) attracted a much larger youth audience, most of whom weren't actually listening.

Posters to this forum who play music for a living may think well differently. But to them I'd say: fashion is a fickle friend – boom today means crash tomorrow, as surely as sunset follows sunrise. Meanwhile, be thankful that there are audiences at all, even if most of their members are outside the age-group which the music industry prefers to cater for.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 03:24 AM

You'd have to pay me to go to WOMAD, and it would NOT be cheap!

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: GUEST,EricTheOrange
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 03:21 AM

If I could solve the problems with a sentence or two I wouldn't be posting here but hiring myself out as a consultant! A few things do come to mind though --

This is the 21st century, the age of Digital TV, Youtube and iPods -- even my old mum uses an mp3 player, PVR and the internet. Audiences are more "sophisticated" and demanding so what worked in the 60s or 70s often seems dated or dull or boring.

One of the things Womad do is educate a potential audience through their promotional material so that those turning up feel as though they're already "in the know" and buy in to the cultural event they're attending. Professional events such as Opera, Ballet or Classical music are increasingly taking this approach as well to find a new audience.

Targeting events at a particular audience and combining events imaginatively as is done by smaller touring theatre groups could also be productive. I'd suggest that an evening featuring the traditional music, food and folklore of north-east England would be of far more interest to many people of that region than a generic "folk" evening.

Choice of venue should also be a consideration. If you want to draw in passers or those casually interested don't choose a hall or back room of a pub where anybody entering immediately gets all the old hands staring at the "new face".

There's no doubt that the word "Folk" has become devalued and covers a lot of evils. For those in the UK the M&S food adverts show how use of language can massively alter perception.

People have a far larger range of entertainment options than in the past so if you want an audience to come you've got to go and find them and give them a reason to be interested in what you offer.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 03:01 AM

You're still making up your definition (non-definition) as you go along Ron
             "Words mean what I want them to mean" -
                        Humpty Dumpty (Alice Through The Looking Glass)

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 11:52 PM

"I always thought folk music was the song and tune passed down through generations, that had stood the test of time and usually had at least one dead body in it... but therein lies a whole heap of cans of worms...."

No, you are describing traditional folk song. The folk music that is being discussed here is the type that became relevant beginning with the folk revival and continues through today.

I think the folk music that Dick is describing will always carry on in one form or another. It has always been there. People still like to make their own music - perhaps not sitting in a park or in a group with friends, but they are making music and that will carry on.

As this header notes, this discussion concerns the various clubs, coffeehouses, festivals and other such venues that introduce folk music as entertainment and to educate. Those are the audiences that appear to be shrinking.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 11:46 PM

"folk music isn't really about performing and audiences".

I always thought folk music was the song and tune passed down through generations, that had stood the test of time and usually had at least one dead body in it... but therein lies a whole heap of cans of worms....

LTS

*ducking and running abroad for cover*

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 08:02 PM

Somewhere between Dick and Al lies a pretty good assessment. And you two are well qualified to comment. I think we forget sometimes that while we want our music to have gravitas, our job is to entertain. That is what Utah got, and he told me that at length over his final 2 months. It seems we never had a conversation that he wasn't telling me that folks will just stop listening at some point if they are not being entertained.

I am happy to say that my own band still fills the seats and they don't leave until we do. I put that down to damn fine music, and we make them glad to be there. And we manage to teach them a thing or two while we are at it.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 07:56 PM

IMO, they were pretty godawful in the 60s and 70s. Didn't stop the crowds.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 06:40 PM

'The fact that at one time there were large audiences was a fluke of popular taste'

No its no fluke that folksingers stopped trying to entertain audiences - sheer bloody pretentiousness did it. Some thought they were soul searching poets. Others thought they were curators of some ghastly museum in which any old rubbish had an honourable place.

And folks got fed up of dirty scruffy pubs.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 06:25 PM

Y'know, folk music isn't really about performing and audiences. The fact that at one time there were large audiences was a fluke of popular taste; it may return, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 04:55 PM

acoustics good enough that no sound system is needed

Any reasonably boxy room without too much insulation is good enough, if the audience will shut up - and if not, not. My experience is that amplification goes together with audiences who don't see the need to keep quiet - why should they, they're not stopping anyone else hearing the music.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Stewart
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 03:41 PM

My dream/fantasy is to play/sing in a small cafe/coffeehouse/pub(well no, I've sworn off the noisy drunken scene) with acoustics good enough that no sound system is needed (that would keep away the singer-songwriters who can't seem to sing without all the electronic enhancements - "can you turn up the monitors more?!" while the sound man smiles, pretends that he's turning the knob, but doesn't do anything knowing that terrible feedback would soon follow). I call that my "Dream Cafe" (although Greg Brown had a different take on that with his song). But I haven't found it, at least not yet in Seattle. Of course then there would still be the problem of finding the audience. Oh well...
I guess I'll stick with my busking.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 02:44 PM

In the case of the local pubs, they don't seem to be attracting an audience at all. As for why they are hired..my guess would be that the pub maangement is under the impression that louder is better. I don't quite follow the Berra analogy as the Pub is seldom crowded and many folks here abouts don"t go simply because they have no wish to be blown out of the room. The result usually is that there is no music much in the pub anymore.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 02:23 PM

"So if you arrive at a small venue loaded with amps you've probably scared off most folks. "

Sort of reminds me of the Yogi Berra story about going to a restaurant.   Arriving to find there were no tables, Berra supposedly said "No wonder nobody comes here, the place is always packed!"

I'm wondering why a venue would hire a band with amps if it would scare off most folks. Is it possible the band is attracting a different audience?

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 02:15 PM

I don't go round to pubs to hear music much anymore. Pubs that afvertise "folk" seem to feel that a small pub needs to hire a band that totes in enough sound equipment to play in a football stadium. Too loud for me and anyone else within a mile. So if you arrive at a small venue loaded with amps you've probably scared off most folks.
PS Bodrans (sic) haven't helped).

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 11:28 AM

GUEST,EricTheOrange

I'm quite keen to see folk but I've been turned off going to clubs because they seems the province of old (I think most seem past my idea of middle aged) people reliving their younger days.

Bit of a Catch 22 though isn't it. Any advice on how to get young people into folk clubs and, better still, helping to run them would be more than welcome.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 07:42 AM

"Reliving our younger days" - if only!!! :-(

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: GUEST,EricTheOrange
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 03:46 AM

As a youngish person with no folky background I think part of the problem is in presentation in that many events seems to have no relevance to me. I'm quite keen to see folk but I've been turned off going to clubs because they seems the province of old (I think most seem past my idea of middle aged) people reliving their younger days. I think that many younger people are like me in that I am far more keen to see traditional music and songs performed traditionally or in reinterpreted form than I am to see second rate "singer/songwriters". The age of the performer is irrelevant but their enthusiasm and attitude are.

I've just come back from Womad and that's an example of how to present music (yes including folk) in a format appealing to us younger ones.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Stewart
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 12:49 AM

And then there's the performer that I've booked who doesn't respond to email or voice mail, doesn't return the signed performance agreement, doesn't get me the promo material that I need, does nothing on his end to promote the concert. I'm dealing with one of those right now for a Sept. concert. I'm ready to cancel him and book another band if possible at this late date. Ah, the joys of being a concert promoter.

Then there's another performer who responded within hours of my first email that she would be happy to do the gig. I sent an agreement a few hours later, which she then returned within another few hours. She put the concert announcement up on her web page within a few days. And I know she'll be at the gig a half hour before I ask her to be there. She's a real pro. What a pleasure.

Yes, a certain amount is up to the performer.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 09:20 PM

Actually, I think it helps cement their integrity as performers. If a performer compromises, they lose the element that they are trying to perpetuate.

In the case of Magpie, they are going to the community that they are part of. The are singing and performing songs that are important to them as folk musicians - songs about the environment, peace, civil rights, etc.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 09:10 PM

I have to say that Ron's comments about "Magpie" hit the nail--it is really all about creating opportunities-- you go where the people are, and give them something that they want--

The problem with this, of course, is that a lot of people feel that this approach compromises their integrity as folk performers. To a certain degree, I think their is something to be said for integrity, but don't think that any interests are being served when you play to only three people.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 08:28 PM

'WLD, as to the idea of gig collecting, that shouldn't be the province of the folk "workshops".'

a rather patrician view, we are talking about professional folksingers - people who have dedicated their lives to acquiring this craft - and half the idiots on Mudcat (who could couldn't string three chords together if their life depended on it) won't even agree what they do is folk music - so they are scuttling round trying to SURVIVE!

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Nick
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 08:18 PM

Well we must be in a strange position where I am. We do no publicity to speak of apart from word of mouth; are in a pub that is not particularly beautiful or quaint or anything; and meet weekly.

Last week was a particularly good evening though by no means the best attended ever. 21 singers and musicians; 35+ people; 3 and a half hours of solid music ranging from choruses to unaccompanied song to a particularly impressive young band (Magic P and the Innuendoes who I'd recommend highly to anyone) with an average age of about 22 I would guess, to ensemble things like Willow Tree (the impromptu arrangement unashamedly nicked from Eliza Carthy) with three guitars, three fiddles, electric bass, two concertinas and a trumpet player and a lot of chorus singing.

With holidays we'll probably get quieter but people know it is on every week and people come when it suits them knowing that there will be people there as is mentioned elsewhere on the thread. We have a large enough hardcore of people and a larger number of occasional visitors who come from anything up to fifty miles away that there is nearly always a good crowd. If there isn't who cares - we'll have a sing and share a tune with whoever is there.

It is inclusive and manages to balance (hopefully) the needs of the faction who love playing tunes and the singers.