BS: G.B. and N.I.?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 08:22 AM

Fascinating development has just been announced in the Six Counties
The three opposing parties on Brexit, all of whom wish to retain links with Europe, now have a clear majority
The D.U.P., having done a deal with Tessa the Tossa in order to get her through the negotiations, are now in the minority.
Shape of things to come??
Incidentally Keith, the Tory spokesman has said that no deal can be done on the border unless two other conditions are met first - that's how genuine your/Two-Gun Tessie's promises of an open border are
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 06:21 AM

"Not true. The people have spoken enough times on this.
No they haven't Keith - how could anybody possibly vote to be British rather than Irish
They have voted for peace and quiet
The Idea that politicians could make a country British died with the Empire
When Catholics demonstrated for equal rights in the late sixties, the police guided them through stone throwing loyalist mobs.
The Six Counties have ben held by force of arms and a repression imposed on them by repression by a sectarian administration set up by Britain - that is not choice
In a few years there will be a Catholic majority in the North East - we can only hope they don't treat the population in the same way your lot did.
Your support for Unionist bigotry is no less disgusting than is your support for the Slave States
The last thing Ireland needs now is the bigoted views of an ignorant and antagonistic Englishman - please don't try to tell me that someone who describes Irish children as "brainwashed to hate Britain" isn't a raving bigot
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 06:09 AM

"You would force them at gun point if you could."

Brainless.

By the way, how was the "Conservative Party at prayer" this morning? Good turnout? Hope you all sat on the right-hand side of the church where you belong!

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 06:00 AM

i don't bloody care whether they want to be ruled from Dublin. they obviously want to still be in the EU. THey can't do that and be in the UK. THey could work out something with Dublin if they had the will to.

It would be a good time for them to sod off. Scotland too.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 04:29 AM

The politicians made the decisions, not the people

Not true. The people have spoken enough times on this. The majority do not want to be ruled from Dublin and would resist it.
You would force them at gun point if you could.

The majority is dwindling, so be patient.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 04:21 AM

Do I belive that the residents of Chipping Sodbury should be allowed to secede from Britain because they decide that their life is better than that of the rest of the country - what an incredibly stupid idea
To divide a nation artificially - whether it be six counties, or The Southern States, or Cyprus, or Korea, or Viet-Nam, or India and Pakistan... is a recipe for filling body bags for generations to come - go count the dead of Ireland or the million who died in the India-Pakistan dispute.... or wherever.
The politicians made the decisions, not the people - all the latter want is to be allowed to get on with their lives in peace, without political'religious self-interested interference.
The Irish are a very self-aware people as far as their culture is concerned - spend time moving about the diffrent part s and you would become very aware of that fact
For a little England British nationalist, you show very little knowledge for the cultural awareness of others
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 04:00 AM

So you think that the people of NI should subsumed into the Republic against their will?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 03:36 AM

The Border in the case of Ireland is a line drawn by politicians in order to divide one country into two halves - the secret lies in the name "Ireland'
Whiile it remains, we will still be filling body bags, as has happned wheever a country has bee divided artificially
to suit one side or the other.
Brexit has risked the progress that has been made to remove that barrier.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 03:23 AM

I understand that point, Al, and I also understand that things like the Berlin wall and - if it happens - the Mexican wall are built by one side. But the actual border is the distinction between two sides, whether trade, nationality, taxation, religion, ethos or whatever. The walls and checkpoints are just a means of strengthening and enforcing the border. Annexation is when one side regards itself as so powerful that it can ignore the border, so once again, the requirement both sides agree on the border to maintain it applies.


Anyway, that's my two pennyworth. Other people are perfectly entitled to their opinion. As usual I will stick to my "state-explain-shut up" approach to threads.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 06:12 PM

That was to Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 05:56 PM

Oh, isn't it just. Go and discuss it with your mirror.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 05:55 PM

'it takes two sides to create a border. Insisting the person on the other side does what you want when they disagree is just as much you creating the border as them.'

i think all the countries annexed by Russia after the war would probably give you an argument.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 02:46 PM

I do not think I am posting more or less than I ever have.
You seem to be engaged in a deranged vendetta Steve.

It is a pity that we can not discuss the sacking of Ms Champion from the Shadow Cabinet though.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 02:40 PM

I'll tell you what, good people. Keith is very, very frustrated about his precious Labour thread being shut down, he spent a week hardly being able to get his oar in at all (wasn't it wonderful), and now he's decided to try absolutely anything he can to resume his attritional, vexatious nonsense games. He's at it here and he's at it now in the Glorious Twelfth thread. It's solid trolling. Let's ignore him.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 02:33 PM

No. One side can set up border controls without the other.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 02:23 PM

it takes two sides to create a border. Insisting the person on the other side does what you want when they disagree is just as much you creating the border as them.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 12:14 PM

if it does provide a backdoor for EU people/goods getting into England, house prices in NI will sky rocket. it will become a place of enormous economic strategic importance.

the celtic tiger will be on the loose once again.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 11:58 AM

No she was repeating a promise they are not in a position to make

No, she was stating a fact that Britain does not want or need to change the border.
Obviously it can be imposed on us from the other side.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 08:04 AM

It is amazing that the same party that warned that should an independent Scotland not be in the EU then there would be border posts at the crossing into England now assures the people of Northern Ireland that there is no need for a border on an island where part is in the EU and part not!!!

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 06:44 AM

"May was just reiterating Britain's stated position on the post Brexit border."
No she was repeating a promise they are not in a position to make
She fucked up her majority - why on earth should anybody trust here on anything (especially when many of her own party regard her an embarrassment)?
And why should any right thinking person believe someone who consorts with a party linked to terrorism?
You'd think all your birthdays had come at once of Corbyn bunged a million to such a party
Your party is corrupt, now has indirect links with terrorists and is incompetent
And it stands to have racist Boris Johnson as a leader should Mayfly fly away
You couldn't make them up if you were a scriptwriter for 'Yes Minister'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Kampervan
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 05:38 AM

I don't believe that either Ireland or the UK WANT to harden the border; the problem is that anything that crosses from the north into Ireland can then move freely to anywhere else in the EU.

The EU wants to see a system that ensures that anything that does cross into Ireland is compliant.

If we can come up with the means of doing this then a hard border will not be necessary.

But it will be interesting to see how they approach this given that in many places there are farms that straddle the border and so moving say a load of potatoes from one end of a barn to another effectively takes them from outside to inside the EU

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 05:31 AM

You haven't said what Charlie Flanaghan is alleged to have said though have you.

I very much doubt if you will find him seeking a hard border.

You lose .............. (I must stop saying that it's boring.)

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 05:26 AM

You have not given any ................... You Lose !!!

I gave you what Dublin's Foreign Affairs Minister Charlie Flanagan said.
I also reminded you that Ireland is remaining in the EU which seems to want to create difficulties for us, including on the border situation.

If that means I have lost something, I can live with it thanks Rag.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 05:19 AM

""UK does not want a hard border Jim, just DUBLIN and the EU"

We know what the UK's position is professor but you stated above that Dublin and the EU wanted a hard border.

I asked what evidence you had to support the assertion that DUBLIN wanted a hard border.

You have not given any ................... You Lose !!!

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 05:12 AM

Jim, May was just reiterating Britain's stated position on the post Brexit border. Britain does not require or want any change.

Teresa May in case you had forgotten is the leader of the British Government
Yes, but Dublin's Foreign Affairs Minister Charlie Flanagan is not.

If no-one wants a change to the border there will not be one, and this is not an issue.
The problem is that EU wants to make things difficult, and Dublin has to toe their line.

EU wants there to be a problem with the border and will make it an issue, and Dublin will have to choose which side it is on.

(One obvious solution would be for Ireland to join us in leaving EU.)

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:53 PM

i thought the plan was that the catholics were going to copulate like mad and the resultant kids would vote for a united reland.

you can't help but wish they'd shift their arses and get on with it.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 02:46 PM

"Prime Minister Theresa May has said there should not be a hard border after Brexit"
Would that be the same Theresa May who took Britain into a General Election in order to give her party a firm majority in the Brexit negotiation - failed miserably and did a deal with a sectarian party with terrorist links and paid them a £billion bung for their support.
A woman to be trusted, no doubt - with your lives even!!!!!
Apart from the fuck-up in British living standards which, according to the Bank of England, will last at least a decade, Brexit not only risks the break-up of the British Union, but also has set back the Irish PEACE PROCESS back decades
"Prime Minister Theresa May has said......" - you cannot be serious!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 02:12 PM

You lose.

Teresa May in case you had forgotten is the leader of the British Government !

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 01:39 PM

Keep trying. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 01:02 PM

"Prime Minister Theresa May has said there should not be a hard border after Brexit, but Dublin's Foreign Affairs Minister Charlie Flanagan has voiced scepticism "

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 12:48 PM

You are talking about the British Government. Tell us about the Irish Government wanting a hard border.

You lose !!!

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 12:34 PM

UK government has stated unequivocally that it does not want or require any change to the border post Brexit.

UK will not be imposing any changes, so if they happen it is not our fault.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 12:23 PM

This is a completely ridiculous discussion. Keith has lost it. Just ignore the silly sod.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 10:47 AM

I repeat you stated "UK does not want a hard border Jim, just DUBLIN and the EU"

You have no evidence that the government in Dublin wants a hard border so your statement is false.

You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 10:41 AM

The party of that leader is well represented in the Dublin Parliament too.
UK government is adamant it wants no change to the border.
EU, which includes Ireland, does.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 10:05 AM

You stated "UK does not want a hard border Jim, just DUBLIN and the EU"

You now quote a Stormont Leader and the UK Government.

Now I know you have difficulty with comprehending written English but a Stormont Leader and UK Government do not equate to the Government in Dublin.


You lose !!

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:56 AM

Rag, UK government is adamant it wants no change to the border.
EU, which includes Ireland, does.

I am so glad that you support my case that it is perfectly reasonable to ask for substantiation here, and it is actually to be expected in a discussion forum.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:52 AM

Sinn Fein's Stormont leader, Michelle O'Neill, said the proposals were "big on aspiration but light on clarity".
"Whilst the British Government might say they don't want to see any kind of hard border or technology put in place, it will not be within their gift to deliver that," she said. "It will be the other European member states, who clearly think and believe we need to see customs controls."

http://www.itv.com/news/2017-08-16/brexit-keeping-irish-border-free-of-checkpoints-is-top-priority/

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:46 AM

You made an unsubstantiated claim, you cannot back up that claim.

Forget it professor ............ to use one of your favourite expressions you lose.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:41 AM

UK government says it requires no changes to the current border.
Where is the disagreement coming from?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:37 AM

"UK government says it is not necessary."
Given that Theresa May is still in charge we can safely assume that The Government' hasn't a clue as to what is happening
"the Government says" - you cannot be serious!!!
The border and the future of Irish security remains real cause of conscern in the real world
A few weeks ago the Bank of England made it clrear that the detrimental aftershocks of Brexit dure to the economic uncertainty will continue t effect the standard of living of the British people foor at least a decade
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:30 AM

There is absolutely nothing in the statement you provided to suggest that Dublin wants a hard border. Nothing at all. Zilch, Nil, Nought.

You may have also noticed that John Bruton is an EX European Ambassador and that Bertie Ahern is an EX Taoiseach and while they may be more aware of movements inside the Rialtas na hEireann, the Oireachtas, the Seanad Eireann and the Dail Eireann than you and I are they do not, and cannot, speak for it.

Back to the drawing board professor, you have no evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:17 AM

"I would suggest you're making it up as you go along."

Gasp! Surely not?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:16 AM

Expressing concerns and doubts is not calling for a hard border. You've been sidelined for a little while now, Keith, but it seems that you can't wait to get back to being thoroughly vexatious.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:15 AM

Steve,
But the obstinate fact is that if we leave the EU, and by doing so leave the single market and customs union and end free movement, there is inevitably going to be a tightening-up on the border.

UK government says it is not necessary.

Maybe no-one wants it but the EU is not going to let the UK enjoy soft exceptions.

Not UK's fault then. Or even Ireland's. Its that pesky EU.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:10 AM

Rag, asking someone to support opinions and assertions has been decreed unreasonable behaviour by Jeri.

However, I disagree with Jeri. We can not make people justify their claims, but assumptions can be made when they can not.

Irish News,
"
FORMER taoiseach John Bruton has warned that Brexit could increase smuggling along the border in Ireland.
The ex-European Union ambassador to the US said he does not envisage passport checks on routes in and out of Northern Ireland once the UK completes the split.
But in response to a direct question at the House of Lords EU Select Committee on whether Brexit could be abused and become a smugglers' charter, Mr Bruton said: "Yes is the answer to that question too."
Mr Bruton joined former taoiseach Bertie Ahern to set out their biggest concerns for the Irish and Northern Irish economies and communities post-Brexit.
A recent suggestion that Irish ports and airports would become proxy points of entry into the UK and a type of frontier for British immigration checks was dismissed out of hand by Mr Ahern.
"I quite frankly just found that unbelievable," he said."

"Prime Minister Theresa May has said there should not be a hard border after Brexit, but Dublin's Foreign Affairs Minister Charlie Flanagan has voiced scepticism over the reassurances."
http://www.irishnews.com/news/republicofirelandnews/2016/10/26/news/new-irish-border-would-lead-to-increased-smuggling-says-bruton-755554/

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:04 AM

What "statements?" No-one has said they want a hard border. You are clearly being taken in by the nonsense-megaphoning of the DUP. But the obstinate fact is that if we leave the EU, and by doing so leave the single market and customs union and end free movement, there is inevitably going to be a tightening-up on the border. Maybe no-one wants it but the EU is not going to let the UK enjoy soft exceptions. Too many other member countries are watching like hawks, some of them not especially happy with their lot.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 08:53 AM

What statements professor, I have seen none, nor have I heard about or read any statement from the government in Dublin to that effect.

I would suggest you're making it up as you go along.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 08:41 AM

Sorry, I didnt intend to use language in that way: it was not supposed to be a value judgement, just a factual statement that the proposals do not currently cohere. Finding a resolution is possible but it will involve balancing the competing views within the UK.

I see only three solutions to the border problem, each of which will be hugely problematic. I hope someone comes up with an idea I havent thought of.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 08:40 AM

Rag,
Any evidence to support the assertion that Dublin wants a hard border.

How dare you ask me to jump through hoops Rag, but since you have, yes.
The Irish government have made statements about it.

DMcG
The UK doesn't want a hard border, but it wants things that make a hard border inevitable.

UK says a hard border in not necessary.

A high tech border for trade for example doesn't address population movement.

UK has no problem with population movement across the border. Ireland is not in Schengen and anyway UK wants EU citizens to have visa-free entry.