BS: Guest Postings

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Raedwulf
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 05:31 PM

ROFLMAO at Giok's wonderful (& disturbingly accurate...) post!

Joe - I'm sure I've noticed some of you N.Americans having a right bitch at each other (usually over politics). Admittedly, if I can identify you as being NA, it means you weren't hiding behind the anonymity of Guestdom, but you do make it sound like it's only (& always!) us Brit's that squabble!

I am not against non-members being able to post on this board. Quite the reverse - I can see where it's both useful & desirable (e.g. in being able to post queries about songs/music, etc). What gets right up my nose is people who cower behind "Guest" to post controversial, or highly opinion-based (often both), views (usually in the BS section), particularly when internal evidence from their posts suggests that they are almost certainly Mudcat members without the spirit to admit to their views.

I admit that Raedwulf is not the name on my birth certificate. Someone can come in as a Guest & impersonate me (I do post occasionally without logging in), but no-one else (I hope!) can post simply as "Raedwulf". I am identifiable by that, if by nothing else. You can argue with me on the basis of having one obviously identifiable characteristic.

The problem I have is that I can never be sure if "Guest 5:00 AM" is the same someone that posted 5 minutes, 5 hours, or 5 days ago! In most cases, I can never be sure that one "Guest" & another "Guest " are the same person, which makes life very awkward in replying to them.

If it is technically simple to implement, there is a simple solution - make all guests adopt some handle. Many of you, I'm sure, remember "Guest, A Dreaded Guest"? He started as plain Guest, even if he was pretty obvious. Several of us (me included) badgered him to adopt some handle, & he even managed to demonstrate a sense of humour when he did! I doubt anyone thought any more of his opinions because of it, but I think most people appreciated the fact that he had made himself immediately identifiable.

If a stranger comes up to me & tries to start an argument, I can identify them by their face. If they were to phone me ditto, I could identify them by their voice. But on Mudcat, my only chance is a very tenuous "that looks like that Guest's style..." If this is not outright cowardice, it's certainly crass bad manners towards every named poster on the board. It isn't that Guests are unwelcome, but some of us would like to see you making some effort toward allowing us to recognise you, even if on a relatively anonymous basis!

Can we not make Guests offer some label beyond easy anonymity, Joe? I can understand why you want freedom to post on Mudcat, but freedom can also be abused, particularly on the Net, & it often seems to be here, sadly.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 03:28 PM

Ah, Giok, you speak the truth. But individually, they're all very nice people. Just like the people in the church choir.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 03:12 PM

The British Isles is made up of four nations.

1 The Scots, who keep the sabbath, and everything else they can lay their hands on.
2 The Welsh, who pray on their knees, and on their neighbours.
3 The Irish, who don't always know what they believe in, but are willing to die for it.
4 The English, who by professing to be a nation of self made men, take a great responsibility off the Lord's shoulders.

All that in such a small island,maybe this will go some way to answer your question Joe.

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 02:20 PM

I've been trying to figure out why there's this constant bickering and pettiness among UK Mudcatters who are otherwise very nice people. I've seen similar conduct in only two other places - in orchestras, and in church choirs.
Could there be a connection?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Amos
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 02:19 PM

Who said that???

A

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 02:15 PM

tHIS IS ALL VERY SILLY, AT EVERY LEVEL..

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Amos
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 02:08 PM

Morty:

I concur -- Khatmiss has my apologies as a member of a group that misjudged her. But if as Joe says he was asking her whether it was the case or not, perhaps it was a case of NOI, and not an accusation.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 02:05 PM

Maybe we can get the Cat set up so that whenever a message comes in from an ISP in the UK, the computer plays "Rude Brittania"....just kidding!!

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Morticia
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 02:03 PM

I imagine that, if you have noticed a predominance of personal remarks from UK catters rather than anyone else, it is probably because they know one another in 3d so very much more than in the US, therefore the opportunities to both make, and indeed lose, friends is much greater.

I agree it's a pity that they can't keep their differences off the Mudcat, or settle them out in the open with their names attached to their grievances and I suppose the ability not to do so by posting anonymously always will appeal to some.

I still think it's a pity that Khatt was singled out when she has done nothing wrong and indeed puts a lot of time and effort into supporting the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 01:57 PM

We need a mandatory UK prefix on them. -guest

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Peace
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 01:56 PM

Clinton: Yes, you're right, it is 'public' space (in a manner of speaking), but even in public space, one doesn't have the right to shit on others. There are occasionally consequences. Maybe an answer is blocking the IP.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Amos
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 01:56 PM

Get it said, Mister Offer!! Amen.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 01:48 PM

I guess I didn't see most of the stuff referred to in this thread. As far as Joe's comments, personally, I can never tell if the posts that I figure are between UK members are jokes or attacks. Sometimes I can't even tell what the heck they are taking about at all-- real people in the news, actors or characters in TV shows, real people they know who are or are not Mudcatters, characters they are themselves or are making up....

And usually I just chalk it up to not being there myself-- and wonder if the UKers are as mystified about USers posts, or others. Culture is culture, and I don't pretend to understand everyone's, or my own for that matter.

Now, I am NOT proposing that we have additional prefixes within the Department of BS. But with only the one, it makes it hard to sort out what people are on about. But that's OK with me. A little mystery is not such a bad thing. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 01:46 PM

"Some GUESTS' posts are offensive."

You don't wanna be offended, don't go out in public...

Mudcat is a public space... It may be privately owned, but it's still a public space...

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 01:32 PM

Actually, I didn't make any accusations. I just asked Cat if she was one of the people making anonymous posts, and if she was, could she please stop. Could all of you Brits please stop this nastiness, and be nice to each other? Mudcat is supposed to be a folk music forum, not UK Folkie Gossip Central. I've seen this backstabbing here at Mudcat from all sorts of UK people, and I saw it in person when I was in the UK last year. I met a lot of UK Mudcatters when I was in England last year, and this year at the Getaway, and I like almost every British Mudcatter I've met. You're wonderful people - why don't you like each other?

Don't you people have anything better to do with your time?

We don't go on witch hunts. We have no axe to grind. We don't allow personal attacks, so we delete them when we see them or when we get complaints about them. We would much rather spend our time on something other than settling personal squabbles and dealing with petty gossip. So, would all you children please grow up?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 01:31 PM

Well I have had an apology from Pene Azul of which I am truely grateful for. Hope the situation sorts itself out sooner rather than later.

I agree that there is a case for having the ability to post as a Guest. I have had so much fun with the Secret Santa thread and I only post as Secret Sanat Secretary...which is common knowledge seem as I have organised it for the past two years!

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Peace
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 01:30 PM

The problem: Some GUESTS' posts are offensive. Can their IP address be blocked, permanently?

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 01:14 PM

as we can see, it only takes a few really offensive "guest" postings to make the entire concept of anonymity precarious. Of course it should be possible to post with an alias, for reasons noted...but almost ALL abuse and extreme political ramblings in done without even an attempt at a temporary ALIAS.

(I have been tempted to do an entire thread, arguing with myself, to demonstrate how frustrating it is to not be able to tell one blathering 'guest' from another...but I'm sure it would backfire totally...those who agree with me are not guilty, and those who exult in their anonymity would just ignore me and keep on)

ah, well......

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 01:05 PM

I also asked for two scurrilous GUEST postings on the Happy Bithday Noreen thread to be removed. It's a difficult one to police, and I don't have a solution, but in view of an earlier GUEST contribution to this thread I am seriously considering changing my Mudcat handle to my full given name. I for one am willing to stand by my posts, and only post as GUEST in fun threads. Not only that, but I live so far north you'd have to be seriously pi**ed off at me to travel this far up Scotland, just to beat me up.;-)
John "Giok" MacKenzie

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 01:00 PM

I've had my fair share of not nice 'guest postings' at various times but would hate to be without the ability to post as a guest for many of the above reasons e.g. Secret Santa fun, posting at work, not to mention new people who may prefer to try out the site before they join up. I think Joe Offer does a reasonable job at keeping the nasties out of the forum but every so often there will be some that slip through. Best just to ignore their comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 12:42 PM

The thing with all witch hunts is that sometimes the wrong people are burnt. Not too much of a problem if it is always someone else who is wrongly accused - some here might say? More of a problem when it is you - maybe it may well be you next time?

Perhaps chasing and burning witches is not the right way to deal with the problem?

For the original crime may be unpleasant for the victim but it is not being burnt at the stake and is not terminal to the victim is it?

Given the problems presented by the so-called cure - perhaps the very best thing to do is just to ignore being called names and move on, rather than expecting The Witchfinder General (no matter how well-intentioned) to get it right?

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 12:12 PM

Wow... what a whole lot about nothin'...

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: harpgirl
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 12:09 PM

What, another war between the sexes and I'm not in it??? How do I sign up?

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: GUEST,Mike Harding
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 12:02 PM

You see, that is the trouble with GUEST posts, I mean , am I the real thing or not? And Iam not bloody short! I am quite tall actually!

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: GUEST,Mike Harding
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 12:00 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Amos
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 11:57 AM

Well, will you stop beating Micca, then, duck?? Or not?

:>)

luv.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 10:55 AM

Morty.....I am pissed off but didn't want to rant.....I'll leave that for Mudchat later!

Joe didn't give me any ideas to why I was pin pointed. I know IP's are traceable but I do work in a bloody great 50 floor tower block in London and I know there are people in the said tower that post on the cat and know of the person I have supposedly slagged off. I must say the Joe wasn't nasty about it and just asked me to stop...but hey how can I stop something I didn't do in the first place!!! I am presuming that it will be the work IP that he is tracing as he hasn't sent the PM to Micca and we share a computer at home.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 10:52 AM

I have always had the feeling that guests are unwelcome here. It seems to be that if you have a name, ficticious or otherwise, you can be as rude as you like but a rude guest is treated differently. This is a double standard that I find offensive. Many of the postings by guests are good and fun and certainly not harmful. If we are not wanted here, then just be done with it an block all guests posts, aliases and such..simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 10:44 AM

Just to clear up matters, I was not at all unhappy to see a recent thread deleted - I myself complained on the thread about a GUEST's posting. What surprised me was that another posting on a Happy Birthday thread was also deleted.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Morticia
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 10:40 AM

I think you are being a bit saintly there, Khatt....I think I might be rather pissed off, to say the least, if I were accused of something I hadn't done. What evidence did Joe have for accusing you?

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Amos
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 09:29 AM

I must have missed all this scurrilosity -- I don't read all the threads. But I am in favor of the ability to be a Guest. It should be known that the IP numbers of those using it are automatically logged. We should not require preregistration.

If anyone wants to know I have never used it, as far as I remember, except as a Secret Santa, or by mistake over on Mudcat Help.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Mickey191
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 09:02 AM

All we really have in this life is our name. For that name to be slandered or libeled is serious stuff, I think. I requested the removal of two posts because I found the threads to be very hurtful to the lady.(I do not know her personally) The "Guest" is a malacious hider, who if identified, would not have made the scurrilous remarks.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 08:59 AM

My name and address are available to anyone who asks; in fact, I've even posted them. It's not unknown that I'm a library director and that fact has been posted several times so it's not difficult to find me.

Yes, I've logged out and posted under different name, most recently to the Secret Santa thread. If anyone wants to know what other names I've posted under (as Guest,xxxx) I'll tell them, as I have told others.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 08:55 AM

I can 'sort of' see anonymous postings when someone needs to say something about *themself* that they might not want to be public...(medical problems...arrest records..etc)...but to hide behind "Guest" simply to make hateful remarks about others here, I see NO excuse for...NO MATTER WHAT THEIR OPINION!!!!

Some of the stuff posted would be grounds for defamation of character suits if said 'openly'..

I never liked nasty gossip when it was done over back fences...to be done in a world-wide public forum is beyond the pale.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 08:47 AM

I like many other catters, first posted as a guest. Many of the lyric and music queries are from guests. When they've found out just how useful and how much fun Mudcat is (and how easy it is to join), they usually do sign up. For this reason, I wouldn't like to see an end to guest postings.

Many mudcat members (myself included) do sometimes post as guests, but in my case it's so that I can adopt an alta ego (ie in one thread about the devil, I posted as GUEST: BEEZLEBUB so that I could give the other angle). I also know a mudcatter who at one time had about four mudcat identities. In one of his threads, a very vitiolic argument errupted, which had many other catters calling for calm and moderation, before the thread was finally deleted. I happen to know that this same person was in fact BOTH of the antagonists, and I even made a tongue-in-cheek comment that people who had slept together often ended up having violent arguments - this was received with great criticism as the personas were both male !

I accept that there is a need for some "pruning" on the cat, but I'd hate to see it all milk and water. If anyone thinks that I have overstepped the mark in any of my postings, don't hesitate to PM me - you won't be the first by a long chalk. I would prefer it to be the person offended though, rather than some third party who often doesn't know the possible relationships concerned - I was once PM-ed and lambasted about some (fairly innocent) things that I'd said about another 'catter and had to explain that "Essex Girl" was Linda my partner !

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 08:47 AM

Well, Art Brooks is my name, and I'm in the Albuquerque telephone book. I have no particular secrets. If people prefer to use a 'handle', then I guess that's their own choice.

The inability to come in as a GUEST would preclude fun like some people are having on the Secret Santa threads and others. I fail to understand the mentality that uses that ability to deliberately hurt others, which, to me, includes incitement to riot. Oh well, it takes all kinds to make up the world. ANON.GUEST does provide some occasional and no doubt unintended amusement.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Beverley Barton
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 08:37 AM

Frank dear, you sound like a saint. Some of us are not so forgiving, nor are we likely to stop looking for a certain individual.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Pseudolus
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 08:33 AM

This guest thing has been an issue for as long as I've been around here, some saying that we should be a "members only" group while others supporting the rights of anonymity. The key to it all is to ignore any and all flame posts, guest or otherwise. I KNOW it's hard and I KNOW that none of us are capable of avoiding the knee jerk reaction to "post back" every time. But the bottom line is, EVERY post that is intended to hurt, flame, put down, etc., is successful if we respond, even if the response is a joke. Flamers want a reaction, ANY reaction, and if they get it, they've succeeded and will try again. Even mentioning specific posts in this thread feeds the flame.

I'm not posting this to get on anybody's case for responding but rather to say that I understand the temptation, I've responded in the past and I may respond in the future but I will always try NOT to.


Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: GUEST,Free speech portal.
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 08:17 AM

Occasionally people (members) fundamentally disagree with the self adulation and arse licking prevalent on this group.

The GUEST facility allows one to speak/write their mind, or, pose conflicting arguments without the fear of being sent to Coventry at their local folk club.

P.S If you already live in Coventry where would you be sent?

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 08:03 AM

Being a Guest is no more of a shield than some of the anonymous handles seen here.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 07:26 AM

I have just been the target of a Guest (Guest 666, good choice of name). He doesn't like me, Bob Bolton or Alison so he gives us all a serve. I think Alison has met him (her greeting to him on the thread was something like "Have you sobered up from your bottle of wine?" ) but I have no idea how/when I offended him. And does he give Bob a serve! Maybe he's the person who attacked Bob several years ago.

I feel like the architypical Briton of several generations back who does not agree with someone's ideas but will defend his right to express them.

I started here as a Guest, as did some of my friends & aquaintances & have read a lot of good stuff from Guests, but agree that some use their anonymity as a shield, or maybe even a battering ram. Some members also use similar shields & battering rams, but at least we know whe they are & can avoid their postings if we wish.

long live Mudcat.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 07:26 AM

Gests are peeple to.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Sweetfia
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 07:15 AM

Personally i think that there shouldn't be a system where GUESTS can post. Everyone should be a member. No GUESTS. And i agree in that bad posts should be deleted. Especially ones from that idiot GUESTThorton Curtis, who deliberatly offended me, my dad and others when he doesn't even know us. So why he did it i really don't know. And he did it for quite sometime but wasn't deleted when he should have been. It just wasn't funny and we still don't know who he is...

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 07:04 AM

No, catsPHiddle is definitely not a bloke - even if she is taller than most male catters. Micca's a lucky guy - when he dances with her it's not cheek to cheek - but it must be very comfortable - and stimulating !

I hope that Joe does feel that it's neccessary to delete this posting !

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 06:47 AM

Trust me Oaklet....Im NOT a bloke!!!....I wouldn't mind trying it out though......just for one day!!

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Oaklet
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 06:16 AM

CatsPHiddle is a bloke? El Ted had to change sex? You'll be telling me that Colin Thompson is a bloke next. This is a crazy world indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 05:47 AM

I agree with catsPHiddle in finding it reassuring that there's an effect to hold off the nastiness we sometimes get here. And I congratulate him on being able to react like that to the mistake made in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: GUEST,Thornton Curtis
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 05:44 AM

And a damn good job you have made of it dear!

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Beverley Barton
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 05:36 AM

I agree with catsphiddle. I had to have a SEX CHANGE to avoid naughty posts!

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 05:24 AM

In that case I'm surprised that Joe hasn't had a go at me, because one of my postings - a copy of which is still on another thread incidently, was recently deleted - and I don't think that it was rude or defamatory. If the lady concerned has complained, then that's OK - but it would be nice if she could PM me and tell me.