BS: On Human Nature and Violent Acts

Subject: RE: BS: On Human Nature and Violent Acts
From: Amos
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 11:40 AM

An interesting excerpt from a Times discussion on the VT slaughter:

"But a close look at the patterns of murderous violence in the U.S. reveals some remarkable consistencies, wherever the individual atrocities may have occurred. In case after case, decade after decade, the killers have been shown to be young men riddled with shame and humiliation, often bitterly misogynistic and homophobic, who have decided that the way to assert their faltering sense of manhood and get the respect they have been denied is to go out and shoot somebody.

Dr. James Gilligan, who has spent many years studying violence as a prison psychiatrist in Massachusetts, and as a professor at Harvard and now at N.Y.U., believes that some debilitating combination of misogyny and homophobia is a "central component" in much, if not most, of the worst forms of violence in this country.

"What I've concluded from decades of working with murderers and rapists and every kind of violent criminal," he said, "is that an underlying factor that is virtually always present to one degree or another is a feeling that one has to prove one's manhood, and that the way to do that, to gain the respect that has been lost, is to commit a violent act."

Violence is commonly resorted to as the antidote to the disturbing emotions raised by the widespread hostility toward women in our society and the pathological fear of so many men that they aren't quite tough enough, masculine enough — in short, that they might have homosexual tendencies.

In a culture that is relentless in equating violence with masculinity, "it is tremendously tempting," said Dr. Gilligan, "to use violence as a means of trying to shore up one's sense of masculine self-esteem."

The Virginia Tech killer, Cho Seung-Hui, was reported to have stalked female classmates and to have leaned under tables to take inappropriate photos of women. A former roommate told CNN that Mr. Cho once claimed to have seen "promiscuity" when he looked into the eyes of a woman on campus.

Charles Whitman was often portrayed as the sunny all-American boy. But he had been court-martialed in the Marines, was struggling as a college student and apparently had been suffering from depression. He told a psychiatrist that he absolutely hated his father, but he started his murderous spree by killing his wife and his mother.

The confluence of feelings of inadequacy, psychosexual turmoil and the easy availability of guns has resulted in a staggering volume of murders in this country.

There are nearly 200 million firearms in private hands in the U.S., and more than 30,000 people — nearly 10 times the total number of Americans who have died in Iraq — are killed by those guns each year. In 1966 Americans were being killed by guns at the rate of 17,000 a year. An article in The Times examining such "rampages" as the Charles Whitman shootings said:

"Whatever the motivation, it seems clear that the way is made easier by the fact that guns of all sorts are readily available to Americans of all shades of morality and mentality."

---

The loss of dignity and self-worth and "masculinity" are enough to make people go over the brink? Interesting argument.

It must require a certain kind of vulnerability. though, or predisposition, since lots of people struggle with the same issues without resorting to murder.


A

Subject: RE: BS: On Human Nature and Violent Acts
From: Amos
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 11:07 AM

OK, so mistreatment (meaning emotional or physical abuse of an individual by others) sometimes produces a violent person. Other times, it does not -- there have been many cases of poeple surviving violence and trauma and sublimating those experiences to become better at good solutions -- one example being the author of Infidel. Also it seems clear that false data about the adviseability of violent solutions gets involved also -- whether from religious indoctrination, cultural pressure, or videos and advertising and movies. Some people don't process this sort of blatantly false information well and end up dramatizing it instead of putting it in the same perspective as fairy tales.

'Sup with that?


A

Subject: RE: BS: On Human Nature and Violent Acts
From: Peace
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 10:16 AM

The article was clear that the precursor was mistreatment some where along the path, and at some point the people (parents or society) expected to protect the child just didn't. The child internalized and did the 'logical' thing. On occasion, attack is perceived as the only option.

Subject: RE: BS: On Human Nature and Violent Acts
From: Amos
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 10:13 AM

One of the major themes in Infidel is how it happened that she walked away, gradually, from her strict and brutal Muslim upbringing in spite of extreme pressures. She developed her atheism very reluctantly but very honestly, and it makes a great read.

The only reason I mentioned the book, however, is that it is a study in culturally induced violence. Both through religous training and through cultural expectation, Somali children are taught to resort to violence quickly.

I am still perplexed at how, in some individuals, the insanity of violence becomes internalized. I am assumign, based on my limited experience, that children only rarely turn to assault and violence inherently; although William Golding might disagree (Lord of the Flies author).

A

Subject: RE: BS: On Human Nature and Violent Acts
From: Peace
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 10:00 AM

If that is so, then the thing causing more killings is not human nature perse, but rather the efficiency of the weapons people are doing the killing with.

Subject: RE: BS: On Human Nature and Violent Acts
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 09:53 AM

"One question I would ask is this: Has the per capita crime rate risen or just the number of crimes--or both?"

From anything I've read or heard in the last few years, crime rates generally have going DOWN, these last few years. (Same old problems with statistics apply, within 3 percentage points, 19 times out of 20).

Subject: RE: BS: On Human Nature and Violent Acts
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 09:48 AM

Let's not forget that humans evolved during dangerous times, and that survival of the individual/group often depended upon violent action -- from hunting for food to kill-or-be-killed. Within the group you did not kill, but you were wary of other groups -- offering the hand of friendship but with a firm grip on your knife or club. Sometimes, probably often, you got on well with the other group, but there were other times....

Then civilization arose and my city fought your city for whatever reason (and for a really stupid example of a reason read the Iliad - or the Old Testament).

The capacity for violence has been inbred for, literally, thousands of years. It might be a survival characteristic, I don't know. But I do know that if we don't learn to control it, and that very soon, it's going to kill us all.

Subject: RE: BS: On Human Nature and Violent Acts
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 09:37 AM

Interesting article, but BTW, your Infidel author says she's an atheist, not a moslem.

Subject: RE: BS: On Human Nature and Violent Acts
From: Bert
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 12:09 AM

I think that schools are a large part of the problem. In my many years of education I can only remember three teachers who were good. All the others were either mediocre or completely useless.

One doesn't seem to get these problems with part time education where the students are working at a job and struggling to learn in their spare time, and their teachers are drawn from the working public and understand the needs of struggling students.

Stop school at fifteen and send the kids out to work. They don't want to be at school anyway and if the education system hasn't taught them enough in fifteen years (or ten if they started school at five) then they have had their chance.

Expecting grown men and women to stay in school and be treated as children is just asking for trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: On Human Nature and Violent Acts
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:59 PM

One question I would ask is this: Has the per capita crime rate risen or just the number of crimes--or both?

Subject: RE: BS: On Human Nature and Violent Acts
From: Amos
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:54 PM

These are certainly examples. Seems like the common denominator is that some really insane information from the outside gets itself taken on board on the inside and becomes operational there, even when it doesn't make sense compared to the real world.

There's more to this process than meets the eye, I'll say that for sure.

It's a damn puzzle.

A

Subject: RE: BS: On Human Nature and Violent Acts
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:02 PM

Yes, exposure, and over exposure is a big factor. Why do you think I object to Mr, son, and grandson watching stuff like Arnold Schwazz, VanDamme, and yes, even Jackie Chan films?

Get exposed to Violence is Virtue young enough, and enough times you believe it. Especially if you are also told all the time that you are unwanted, bad, ugly, stupid, etc. Gangs exist because they provide a secure place to be accepted once you prove yourself. If home could just do that.....

Subject: RE: BS: On Human Nature and Violent Acts
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:57 PM

The Va. Tech shooter was known to play one of the most violent video games incessantly...his own video and image 'legacy' included poses and language similar to martial arts movies.

I am aware of how hard it is to show cause & effect, but many researcher are finding that long exposure to images of violence desensitizes one to real violence and is VERY often associated with anti-social behavior.

...and Sorcha's list, added to exposure to violence as a reaction to problems, sure is food for thought.

Subject: RE: BS: On Human Nature and Violent Acts
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:45 PM

"He describes this process as one of violentization, in which people are first brutalized into learning that they will not be protected by the system responsible for them, that they must brutalize others or be brutalized themselves, and finally, through the performance of such brutalization they become violent perpetrators themselves."

True, IMO. When the 'system' doesn't afford protection, people step outside the system or become hostile to it. Interesting observation.

Subject: RE: BS: On Human Nature and Violent Acts
From: Janie
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:32 PM

I'd want to read and research more, Amos, to place much wieght on my own opinion her, but I am thinking Athen's research and observations may well explain the violence of, say, a gang member, (we have all read or seen documentaries about the extremely violent initiation rites that include exteme violence perpetrated on the initiate and the requirement that the initiate commit extreme violence or murder on another.) However, I don't think it is an explanation for mass shootings by one or two individuals such as at Columbine or Virginia Tech, et.al.

Subject: RE: BS: On Human Nature and Violent Acts
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:45 PM

I'm not sure, Amos, but I think overcrowding, extreme poverty, extreme greed (and not just for money.....)The Me Syndrome (I get what I want, and fuck you), distancing/isolation from other humans (see over crowding), lack of parenting skills (children having children), extremely mobile humans (parents say, we're moving again, kids won't go,or refuse to make new friends yet again) all play a part in it. I'm sure there is more.

How to stop it? I sure don't know. Mandantory birth control won't go over well, the US is really against increasing minimum wage (now $5.15/hr) especially for food service workers (the Chain just can't pay more...??), Mandantory Parenting classes not an option, Just Say No doesn't work at all, tell the Military and corporatins to stop transferring families? ho ho ho. I want 'That', I can't afford it so I'll just steal it. I won't get caught, the cops are dumb. (well, sometimes they are--but not always)

And yes, having a gun (esp a hand gun, IMO) makes it much easier and disconnected (is that the word I want?) to just blow up and 'fix it'. At least with a knife you have to come within strking distance yourself.

The failure of the Family Services departments is not all their fault, but some of it is. There are many many warning signals that something isn't right but they are not always legally allowed to act on those signals, or on suspicion. Cruelty to animals, self mutilation (look a the HUGE surge in tattoos now...can this be called a form of self mutilation? Piercings...etc) Alcohol abuse, homicide and suicide by vehicle (the intentional ones, I mean), suicide rates in general (see over population again).

I somehow think that the Standardized Tests in the education system are not helping much. So, you aren't Standard? In this society it means you 'aren't good enough'.

How many insurance plans will truly help with mental health/counseling? IF it is offered at all it is usually just one or 2 visits. Most don't offer it. Don't get me started on the US health insurance stuff.

Sorry, off soap box.
Find me a beer case.

Subject: BS: On Human Nature and Violent Acts
From: Amos
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:16 PM

First of all, here is an interesting essay on how humans become violent which is different from the usual run of the mill. For one thing it is a research project undertaken by someone who has lived with human violence and been abused by it.

A second thoght -- I am almost throguh a fascinating book by an articulate, intelligent Somali Muslim woman named Ayaan Hirsi Ali, called Infidel. I cannot recommend it enough for its insight into the cultural and economic sources behind the insanity in Africa.

Both of these sources are studies, among other things, in how individuals accept the beliefs necessary to make them violent.

The recent tragedy in Virginia from one deranged man, the erlier insanity at Columbine, the earlier slaughter at McDonalds San Ysidro, by a deranged Jesus-freak, and the U. Texas bell-tower murders, the insanity of Jonestown and Sharon Tate murders, not to mention the rampant psychosis of war in Iraq, earlier violence in Iraq under Hussein, violence in Iran -- it is a really, really ugly picture of human nature that comes out of all these stories and they are only the tip of an iceberg.

Yet here we are, a whole population of folks for th emost part who wouldn't have it in them to slice a throat or break a nose except under the most extreme provocation.

So I am moved to ask, "What's UP with that?"

A