Tech: Cookie problems, help please

Subject: RE: Tech: Cookie problems, help please
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 03:29 PM

Amos -

That's called "flexibility" so that vast numbers of users can make their programs do what they want it to do - (as long as they get permission from Mickey).

Sometimes flexibility is a very good thing.

Sometimes flexibility is not a very good thing; but in those cases it's generally referred to by the more specific term "limp."

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Cookie problems, help please
From: Amos
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 02:27 PM

Well, I'll be hornswoggled and will also swan, gentlemen. You WinTel users have the advantage of me in penetrating the subtle complexities of an interface already too complex for most ordinary use.

I am glad I don't have to wrestle with such a slough of distinctions and relative picayine differences, though.

I just hot the relaod button and get the current page.

A

Subject: RE: Tech: Cookie problems, help please
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 01:57 PM

(BTW...I 'think' I have finally managed to control that behavior on my PC, but it involved exploring I.E. settings about 'temp' files, and I 'almost' NEVER use I.E., so never expected it to be keeping a history from my other browsers.)

(Now..off to Christmas stuff...I'll let all this simmer till later..or tomorrow.)

Subject: RE: Tech: Cookie problems, help please
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 01:48 PM

(just out of curiosity, John...did you ever dig down to the I.E. temp files and explore what is saved in your browsing history? And if so, do you have any idea why it should also keep history from OTHER browsers?)

Subject: RE: Tech: Cookie problems, help please
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 01:45 PM

(cross-posted, I see, John)

You say: "MUDCAT Refresh button, where you can set a filter word or phrase and how many days to search, should always reconstruct a new page and download new to your browser - so far as I can tell"

yes...but in my experience that 'refresh' may not be permanent, depending on the other settings involved. THAT's why I have lost my cookie in the past, and why some posts get 'lost' for folks....I think.

all I know is, the **RELOAD** button on my browser is the cure-all and gets me the latest settings both from Mudcat's server and my browser cache. Think of it as the 'override' button for the other settings about how often the browser checks a page.

Subject: RE: Tech: Cookie problems, help please
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 01:37 PM

I see you over there 'spaw...and you are in range if I reload.

and to complicate the situation even more, most newer browsers have what is called 'session savers'....which means you can tell it exactly what you want 'saved' when you close it. You can have 14 tabs open, then close your browser for the night, and they can all be reloaded next day...exactly as you left them, so you can continue research ..etc.
This feature must be considered when you are trying to determine the relationship between what's on the **server**, what's in your computer's cache, and what's in your specific browser's cache.

It is possible to control VERY specifically exactly what your PC shows you and when to delete or change things, but it isn't a simple process, as it involves levels of caches and 'hidden' files that Micro$oft would rather you not find and mess with.
   I was startled to find that pages I had browsed in Firefox or Opera were carefully indexed in I.E. 'temp' folders, even though they had been deleted from MY browser's cache.

Subject: RE: Tech: Cookie problems, help please
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 01:34 PM

Bill D -

Once again, you try to incite a bunch of intellectual ponderings on subtle differences.

I should probably wait until I've had at least half of my first cuppa' but perhaps deeply seated basic instincts will actually be helpful before I wake up and my mind interferes(?).

I quite frankly have never thought too much about what differences there may actually be, since too many of my sources don't observe the differences and meaning usually can be inferred from context.

IE does have a setting (Tools | Internet Options, General Tab, at Browsing History, the Settings button, where there are several presets to choose from. A "recommended" setting is "Check for new versions - every time I visit a web page. You can also set the temp memory location and size here, and specify how long temp pages should be kept in the Temporary Internet folder.

The IE "refresh" button, which should be in the top toolbar and looks like a green "yin/yang" arrow pair, will normally just reload to your monitor screen from the page stored in the Temporary Internet folder, but may check to see if the server page has been changed, depending on your settings at the location above. A "check for new" isn't really guaranteed, regardless of what preferences you've set though.

Quite often, with the IE yin/yang button, you may get a message saying the page must be reloaded in order to refresh - in which case if you agree a new download of the page will be attempted. This "error" seems to happen almost always when the page contains "Flash" content, and at some level of page jScript content.

The MUDCAT Refresh button, where you can set a filter word or phrase and how many days to search, should always reconstruct a new page and download new to your browser - so far as I can tell. The blank filter box and 1 day default should always get you up to date, if there's a question about what your own localmachine is doing to you.

I'll have to pay a little closer attention to which/whether "advice sources" observe any uniform distinction about when they mean refresh/restore/reload. I think there's probably some consistency with some sources; but there's also lots of "loose usage" where the differences might be significant.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Cookie problems, help please
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 01:03 PM

I know that I always feel refreshed before I have to reload.......But it is refreshing to know you can still reload.

I'll just be over here..........

Spaw

Subject: RE: Tech: Cookie problems, help please
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 12:24 PM

To make the point a bit differently, if I read Mudcat at 10PM, then close it and go to bed and open it again at 10AM, I get the same page...my browser loads what is in my cache, NOT what is on the server. I must refresh to see new posts.
   But if I then close the browser at 10:15AM and reopen it at 10:20AM, I STILL see the page from last night, as the cached page has not changed. If I reload it at 10:21, I will then see a NEW cached page for 24 hours. Sometimes cookies get caught in all this and, frustratingly, crumble. This may be the result of cache settings, cookie settings, or both.

Cattail managed to be reset by using a different browser, which, obviously, got the latest settings for everything.

Subject: RE: Tech: Cookie problems, help please
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 11:22 AM

Well..Amos & Joe....there IS a difference between 'refresh' and 'reload'....though the difference will vary from person to person...or from browser to browser, depending on settings...
If you are in Mudcat (well, if *I* am in Mudcat, anyway), and I go to "messages since last visit", as an example, I might see a post from someone I want to check on...and at the same time, I might see at the top that I have a new PM (the # has changed)....well, says I, I will go look at that post, then check the PM. So I click on the post- which takes me to the thread, and I read the post...then I hit 'back', and return to the messages since last visit. Now....instead of resetting "messages since last visit", I hit the "forum home" button at the top. LO! The number of PMs shown is still what it was BEFORE. I have to refresh to see the new PM.
   This is a clue..the PM numbers are reflected in the act of accessing the MSLV page, but the cached page is still the same when I return to the forum!

Now...in my usual browser, Opera, I have a menu like this....The two selections at the bottom "check documents" & "check images" have options varying from 'every 5 minutes' to 'once a week'. Mine is set at 'every 24 hours', thus if I unset my cookie at noon, and then try to REset it at 1PM, when I return to the forum at 1:01PM, the forum will still show the cached page, and may not show that I have reset the cookie until I RELOAD the forum. Re-FRESHING will get me new posts, but NOT all the settings involved in PMs and cookies.

I fought this several years ago, and Jeff & I went 'round & 'round until we figgered it all out.

Briefly...refreshing using the button on the page only changes the listing of threads and new PMs received (if any), and does NOT necessarily affect the page saved in your browser cache)[and on the Mudcat server!]...reLOADING from the browser button overrides whatever setting you may have for the entire site settings to be reset, and puts a new page in your cache.
   This is also part of the issue when a post fails to 'take' and you grumble about retyping it. *IF* you go 'back', copy the post to the clipboard, and reLOAD Mudcat, you can repaste the post and it will 'take' fine..

Now, perhaps someone can phrase all that more clearly than I and explicate the technical reasons better...but there really is a difference between refresh & reload...reloading puts a new page in the cache, while refreshing does not, unless you have set the option to 'always' in the preferences menu, which means the browser will check for new settings every time you post....which one does not usually do, as it takes longer.

Subject: RE: Tech: Cookie problems, help please
From: Cattail
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 06:04 PM

Once again many thanks to all of you, I was using IE version 5.0,
(I'm REALLY archaic here, but it suits me), I have just installed
Firefox version 5.0, and it works, I now have my cookies back.

I will have to drag myself into the real world and start updating things a bit. I don't want to, I dislike XP let alone Vista,
I have XP on another machine which I don't put on line, but I don't
like it much, I only have it on there because the main board wouldn't
run Windows '98 when I built it.

Ah well, progress has caught up with me, so I'll have to go with the
flow I suppose, I'll give it some thought over Christmas.

Thanks once again to you all, especially JohnInKansas, for your thoughts on this problem.

Have a lovely Christmas and a very good New Year.

Best wishes

Cattail !

Subject: RE: Tech: Cookie problems, help please
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 05:37 PM

The machine is accepting cookies from other sites ...

The sites that you're getting cookies from may have a "security certificate." A site that has a cert will be permitted to drop cookies on you. Mudcat doesn't have a certificate, so IE - and likely other browsers and/or cookie blockers - will apply more "strict rules" to whether the cookie is accepted.

The change above - putting mudcat.org in your browser's "exceptions" file - will override the requirement for a certificate and will allow you to keep a mudcat cookie.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Cookie problems, help please
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 05:32 PM

Even if you're running Win98SE for which there is virtually no support, if you have a fairly recent Internet Explorer you should be aware that the "Security Settings" changed some time ago. "Critical updates" to IE should be available regardless of what OS you're using.

The same "level" of security set in the browser that used to accept cookies from nearly anybody may now "bounce" cookies. If you ask for a cookie (i.e. if you log in), it may be entered as a "session cookie" that's good as long as you're on the site, but is erased as soon as you leave.

If you are using Internet Explorer, you need to click on Tools, then on Internet Options, Click the Privacy tab, click the "Sites" button, type mudcat.org in the little box at the top and click "Allow." That will let IE accept and keep a mudcat cookie.

If you're using another browser, there probably is a similar setting but you're on your own for finding it.

After you seem to have been logged in, it is a good idea to hit the "Refresh" button, either the one at the top of the thread index page or the one on your browser to make sure that you have a "new-after-login page" and not an old one from your own temp files - and that you actually are logged in.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Cookie problems, help please
From: Amos
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 05:29 PM

"refresh" is the same as reloading the page. It sends for the whole page from the server rather than bringing it up from a temporary cache. I am not sure what this difference is you speak of, bill.

A

Subject: RE: Tech: Cookie problems, help please
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 04:59 PM

Uh-oh. Than I have to admit that I'm confused, Bill. How does one reload, and how does it differ from refresh?

Can't you just click the grey "refresh" button on the Mudcat Forum Menu, and doesn't that take care of it?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: Cookie problems, help please
From: GUEST,Cattail
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 04:46 PM

Thanks to you all for your replies, I will try what you say and if
all else fails I'll just wipe down and start again, this problem
appeared out of the blue, and won't seem to clear this time, and as
I said, putting two seperate drives, with two different operating
systems on them, both of them set up to recieve cookies, and neither
of them will work on the 'Cat. It just seems very strange.

Thanks once again for all your help.

May you all have a lovely Christmas and a great new year.

Cattail !

Subject: RE: Tech: Cookie problems, help please
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 04:29 PM

Joe's post 'might' not hit the problem... 'refresh' and 'reload' are different. It 'can' take a reLOAD to get everything up to date,

Subject: RE: Tech: Cookie problems, help please
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 04:27 PM

(Obviously, you know your way around a computer ok, or you wouldn't be doing all those checks and clearing...but perhaps you over do the cache clearing & such? If you have made major drive changes/reinstalling stuff, it's easy to lose settings)

Subject: RE: Tech: Cookie problems, help please
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 04:24 PM

If you already know your user name and password, there's not much I can do to help you. Most login problems are on the member's computer, not at Mudcat.
This page (click) from the FAQ is the best collection of hints we have for dealing with login problems.
Clearing your browser cache usually takes care of most problems; but Bill's suggestion that you just refresh the page is lots easier, and usually works.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: Cookie problems, help please
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 04:23 PM

hmmm..well, then...the other likely possibility is that the setting to allow Mudcat cookies has been changed. Wiping drives and worrying about the BIOS is WAY more than a cookie problem usually warrants.

Triple check whether your browser 'might' be set to disallow certain cookie configurations....and...for the sake of being sure, maybe try a different browser.

Subject: RE: Tech: Cookie problems, help please
From: GUEST,cattail (Sans cookies)
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 04:10 PM

Hi.

Leadfingers, thanks for that one, I had thought of that but at the
moment I am not running E-mails unfortunately, but thanks anyway.

Bill D. This has been tried with two seperate drives, both have had
the caches cleared before trying to log in. I routinely clear my
applog directory, my cookies directory, (except for the ones I know
are from the 'cat), my temp directory and delete my temporary
internet directories, so I am at a loss to understand what is going
on here.

I would have thought that putting two different drives into the
machine would have eliminated any problems that may be on either
one of the drives, leaving just the BIOS to give trouble, (if it
was going to), I have also checked through the bios on the off
chance that there was a cookie blocker in there but can't find
anything.

The machine is accepting cookies from other sites, so they are getting
through to me, maybe I would be better off wiping the drive and
starting again, I am partitioned up, so it isn't that difficult,
it just means a few hours to re-set everything back again and I was
hoping that I might get away with not doing that.

I could also try running windows install again over the top of the
previous installation which might cure it.

Before replying to this I went through the above sequence of clearing
out the cache and other things with the same result, when I log in
again it tells me that I 'AM' logged in, but if I try to access my
PM's it tells me that I have to join the 'Cat, it would appear that
only one cookie is coming through where I should normally have two.
It still doesn't work if I copy the cookies from my other drive by
the way. ????????

Thanks to both of you for replying to this, if you have any more
ideas I would be interested for future occasions or if someone
else has the same problems.

Thanks again

Cattail !

Subject: RE: Tech: Cookie problems, help please
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 03:29 PM

Cattail...I had the same problem once. In my case, it was that I needed to RELOAD Mudcat before it recognized that I had my cookie.
   Sometimes your browser is set to read 'cached' versions of sites, and doesn't realize you want the newer version of the page - with cookie.

Subject: RE: Tech: Cookie problems, help please
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 03:09 PM

I think an email to [e-mail] Would solve your problem .

Subject: Tech: Cookie problems, help please
From: GUEST,Cattail unable to reset cookie
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 02:08 PM

Hi all.

Is it just my computer having an attack of the screaming meemies or
is anybody else having cookie troubles?

When I logged on late last night I realised that my cookies had
disappeared, I normally use a drive with '98se on it, but have
tried substituting a seperate drive set up for M.E. as well, in
both cases the cookies don't seem to be registering with the 'Cat.

I have tried logging in again, and logging out and back in, but when
I do it tells me that I am logged in as Cattail and that there are
two messages, if I click on the messages to access them it then tells
me that I must join the Mudcat to use the service.

I have also tried re-joining, but then it tells me that the name
cattail is already taken, so it does know that I'm still around.

I havn't had problems with cookies before, and those from other
sites seem to be getting through to my machine, so have I got a
Mudcat cookie monster lurking in the box somewhere eating them?

Anybody got any ideas that could help me?

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Cattail !