BS: the new improved Unamerican commission.

Subject: RE: BS: the new improved Unamerican commission.
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 07:34 AM

Red was the symbolic colour of socialism from the earliest times, and The Red Flag was the anthem of the British Labour Party from its inception until the Tony Blair era.

The people's flag is deepest red,
It shrouded oft our martyr'd dead
And ere their limbs grew stiff and cold,
Their hearts' blood dyed its ev'ry fold.

Then raise the scarlet standard high,
Within its shade we'll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red flag flying here.

Leon Rosselson correctly forecast the trend in Labour politics as long ago as 1963 with his Battle Hymn of the New Socialists:

The cloth cap and the working class
As images are dated,
For we are Labour's avant-garde
And we were educated.

So raise the umbrella high,
The bowler hat and Eton tie,
But just to prove we're still sincere
We'll sing The Red Flag once a year.

Subject: RE: BS: the new improved Unamerican commission.
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 07:06 AM

The recent red vs blue is an invention of the news media, and the usage has flip-flopped several times in the past. It was intended only to give the networks a way to show which party was ahead in their coverage of elections, and the current usage as to which party is which color has only appeared consistently in a couple of recent elections. But people who like simple-minded "tags" for everbody (makes them easier to hate) have picked it up to some extent as a party designation.

In the era of the House UnAmerican Activities Committe (HUAC - The McCarthy Committee) "reds" was used by the public interchangeably with "Communists." It might have been originally an "insider code" used by party members in conversations that might be overheard, but came into general use quite rapidly once the witch hunts got started.

John

Subject: RE: BS: the new improved Unamerican commission.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 06:14 AM

I thought "red" in the USA normally indicated Republicans.

Subject: RE: BS: the new improved Unamerican commission.
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 11:31 PM

Your corkscrew diatribe is spot on, I am afraid!! :D


A

Subject: RE: BS: the new improved Unamerican commission.
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 10:16 PM

we have to honor and respect the rights of idiots as well as the rights of well-informed and conscientious men and women ...

But does "honor and respect" imply that we have to VOTE FOR so ^$%#@ many of the #*$@#! idiots?

(There seems to be a pattern ...)

As written, the bill in question calls only for formation of a panel to "study" whether there is a "need to study" whether there is "home grown terrorist enlistment" that "needs to be studied" in the US.

At first glance, unless I missed something, the "amateur proficiency" of the author(s) is obvious from the recruitment of members of the committee entirely from within government or from "contractors" the government knows about. Based on recent past performance, this is NOT A GOOD WAY to find about what the whole of the US is up to, and renders the committee unlikely to achieve more than could be accomplished by any class of third grade boys checking on the critical questions of - "mine's longer than yours but how'd his get so thick." (INTROSPECTION at it's most useless?) It does allow per diem payments that assigned committee members might not otherwise get, and allows a few (hopefully very few) additional contracts to think tanks who may have made ($) contribution$.

It's unlikely that the committee will identify any of the several terrorists currently in Congress.

While this gloriously named committee has the commission to "study," I didn't see an authority to subpoena witnesses in a form common in this kind of porkbarrelling, which renders the committee sort of "Capons in the hen house." The concern must be that without subpoena power, the bill passes easily; and the additional empowering can be slid in place later as a rider on a totally unrelated bill - probably without most of the Congress even detecting that it's being done.

It must be remembered that members of Congress can't always be as completely stupid as they look.

(Yes they can!)
(But maybe they're not.)
(How can we tell?)
(Wait and see.)
(That's too late.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: the new improved Unamerican commission.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 08:30 PM

Thanks for bailing me out Kansas!

Subject: RE: BS: the new improved Unamerican commission.
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 07:55 PM

John:

Dear Gawd...this remind me about those questions on the limitations of God making a stone so big he can't move it.

Can a free people make a system of institutional democratic process so flawed that it destroys democracy? Of course, it can, and that has always been one of the vulnerabilities of our system -- we have to honor and respect the rights of idiots as well as the rights of well-informed and conscientious men and women. Grrrrr.

(tongue partially in cheek).

Thanks for the historical insight.


A

Subject: RE: BS: the new improved Unamerican commission.
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 07:43 PM

Amos -

The form used by the earlier HUAC was phrased more like:

Are you planning to attend, or have you ever been a guest at a birthday party, where someone who might already be on the secret list that we can't show you, or who might ever be added to the list for reasons that we can't reveal, was, or could have been, or might be, in attendance?

That form was used, and apparently was "sufficient" for blacklisting by the HUAC gang of extortionists.

They carried out an extensive investigation, including subpoenas and threats, against Lucille Ball initiated largely, it appears, based on her "coloring her hair red" which could have been a sign of support for "communism."

John

Subject: RE: BS: the new improved Unamerican commission.
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 07:41 PM

To secure means to tie down? Or tie up? Or capture? NO?

Subject: RE: BS: the new improved Unamerican commission.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 04:27 PM

Yeah! I think Robespierre and George W. Bush have a lot in common.

Subject: RE: BS: the new improved Unamerican commission.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 04:25 PM

The Committe of Public Safety (Comité de salut public) was what they called it in the day of Robespierre and Madame Guillotine. And the Terror.

Subject: RE: BS: the new improved Unamerican commission.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 02:09 PM

The bill, as forwarded to the Senate, seems reasonable to me.

Subject: RE: BS: the new improved Unamerican commission.
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 01:01 PM

never mind

I cant happen here.

Subject: RE: BS: the new improved Unamerican commission.
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 12:31 PM

I see the Democratic Senate in passing this bill.

In combination with HR 1951 (still pending) This would make Homeland Security a virtual private FBI for the President.

As Randy Newman says...

I could be wrong but I don't thinks so.

Subject: RE: BS: the new improved Unamerican commission.
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 12:28 PM

Amos at the bottom there is this addendum stating that Homeland Security should not violate the Constitution...

how white of them.

Besides it not saying Prohibit do you believe additional layers of domestic spying and annonymous tips is always Constitutional.

Illegal search and seizure is already a Constitutional relic.


"(a) In general.—The Department of Homeland Security's efforts to prevent ideologically based violence and homegrown terrorism as described herein shall not violate the constitutional rights, civil rights, or civil liberties of United States citizens or lawful permanent residents.

However that addendum is not the stated purpose of the new domestic witch hunt. Have you forgotten Operation Tips?

Subject: RE: BS: the new improved Unamerican commission.
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 12:16 PM

http://thomas.loc.gov/home/gpoxmlc110/h1955_rfs.xml



The original link is swamped and shut down.


It promotes Homeland security. It does not prohibit Homeland Security.

Most of the investigation will probably be internet based. For example finding out how has ever browsed Al Jazera

Subject: RE: BS: the new improved Unamerican commission.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 11:30 AM

Yeah! Who was that guy who jumped up and yelled: "Have you no decency sir? Have you no decency?"

            I remember watching that, too. But all those guys looked alike to me back then, on black and white tv, all dressed in tweeds and top coats, with Sam Spade hats.

Subject: RE: BS: the new improved Unamerican commission.
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 11:21 AM

Yeah, I got that part. I was old enough to see Senator McCarthy saying that on B&W television, but I had no concept of why it was as bad as it was. It helped me reach an early conclusion tyhat grownupswere pretty whacko, though! :D

Subject: RE: BS: the new improved Unamerican commission.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 11:01 AM

Sorry! It was too much of a stretch. That's all I recall from the House UnAmerican Activities Committee was the question they asked over and over again.

                     i.e. - Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the Communist Party?

Subject: RE: BS: the new improved Unamerican commission.
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 10:47 AM

Sure I have, Rig. But your question appears to be completely from left field -- what am I missing?



A

Subject: RE: BS: the new improved Unamerican commission.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 10:44 AM

Amos - Are you now, or have you ever been a guest at a birthday party?

Subject: RE: BS: the new improved Unamerican commission.
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 10:36 AM

Congressional Research Service Summary

"The following summary is provided by the Congressional Research Service, which is a nonpartisan government entity that serves Congress and is run by the Library of Congress. The summary is taken from the official website THOMAS.

4/19/2007--Introduced.

Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007 - Amends the Homeland Security Act of 2002 to add provisions concerning the prevention of homegrown terrorism (terrorism by individuals born, raised, or based and operating primarily in the United States).

Directs the Secretary of Homeland Security to:
(1) establish a grant program to prevent radicalization (use of an extremist belief system for facilitating ideologically-based violence) and homegrown terrorism in the United States;
(2) establish or designate a university-based Center of Excellence for the Study of Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism in the United States; and
(3) conduct a survey of methodologies implemented by foreign nations to prevent radicalization and homegrown terrorism.

Prohibits the Department of Homeland Security's efforts to prevent ideologically-based violence and homegrown terrorism from violating the constitutional and civil rights, and civil liberties, of U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents."

Hmmmm?


A

Subject: RE: BS: the new improved Unamerican commission.
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 10:27 AM

It sounds like the HUAC on steroids
aren't steroids bad ;)

Subject: BS: the new improved Unamerican commission.
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 10:11 AM

Its like the House of Unamerican activities Commission but with security institutions like Homeland Security, NSA and private armies like Blackwater and Titan able to take extreme actions and not merely destroy reputations or deny employment.

It is only a Senate vote away. http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-1955


Who will be on the "extremist beliefs" list? The usual gang of suspects: Quakers, civil libertarians, 9/11 skeptics, critics of the administration's wars and foreign policies, critics of the administration's use of kidnapping, rendition, torture and violation of the Geneva Conventions, and critics of the administration's spying on Americans. Lets throw vegans in there too. Anyone in the way of a powerful interest group--such as environmentalists opposing politically connected developers--could also a candidate for the list.

Defenders of the law would claim we are only finding out who is against America. I would ask whose America is this law defending.
If the law passes we would have to wait and see who actually makes the list but I bet sure as shootin that the list will be classified.

The "Extremist Beliefs Commission" is the mechanism for identifying Americans who pose "a threat to domestic security" and a threat of "homegrown terrorism" that "cannot be easily prevented through traditional federal intelligence or law enforcement efforts."

This bill is a boon for nasty people. That SOB who stole your girlfriend, that hussy who stole your boyfriend, the gun owner next door--just report them to Homeland Security as holders of extreme beliefs. Homeland Security needs suspects, so they are not going to check. Under the new regime, accusation is evidence. Moreover, "our" elected representatives will never admit that they voted for a bill and created an "Extremist Belief Commission" for which there is neither need nor constitutional basis.

That boss who harasses you for coming late to work--he's a good candidate to be reported; so is that minority employee that you can't fire for any normal reason. So is the husband of that good-looking woman you have been unable to seduce. Every kind of quarrel and jealousy can now be settled with a phone call to Homeland Security.

Soon Halliburton will be building more detention centers.

Americans are so far removed from the roots of their liberty that they just don't get it. Most Americans don't know what habeas corpus is or why it is important to them. But they know what they want, and Jane Harman has given them a new way to settle scores and to advance their own interests.

Is it too extreme to belive that Halliburton will build the detention facilities?

Why is the FBI not suited for this purpose?

Maybe this is not as tyrantical as sounds but anytime the govement is going around taking names and making special lists of new potenntial criminals, I see a danger.