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BS: To crucify the living Christ
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: Stu Date: 03 May 08 - 06:47 AM "Just merely stopping the sabotage of the planet would be welcome. . ." The power to do this is with the people - putting your faith in one man leading the most corporate nation in the world is a at best a delusion, at worst an avoidance of our own personal responsibility to our planet and our fellow citizens. You want to save the world? Don't buy an SUV, turn off the light when you leave the room, accept you need to pay more for your petrol, don't get in an aeroplane etc etc etc What is needed is a fundamental shift in the paradigm of our relationship with the planet. Primarily governments need to drive this process, but ultimate responsibility rests with the individual. We all know what we need to do, and almost of us reading this board live in unregulated capitalist economies then we hold key to change, and who is running whatever country is irrelevant to a degree. You'd be better off recognising your own divinity and stepping up to the plate on your own terms rather than expecting a politician of any persuasion to do it for you. It's nearly too late already - get on with it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: Arkie Date: 02 May 08 - 09:13 PM I still see no reason to reject the New Testament view of Jesus. It would certainly be convenient to many to promote a political revolutionary role for Jesus and I do think he was a revolutionary but he did not promote violence. His teaching and example promoted a genuine caring about "neighbors" irregardless of their nationality, politics, or religion as a response to the action of the Creator God and that a relationship with the Creator God is possible for even those on the lowest level of the social scale. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: Donuel Date: 02 May 08 - 09:04 AM Jim Thanks for the review of yours. Slag thank you for your handy dandy heretical accusation. However you go beyond mere misunderstanding with the phrase "you do violence to the Scripture". I weep for every book ever burned. I knew people who destroyed books that might be suspected to be in varience to cult law and beliefs - without even reading it. If you are sincere about your violence claim, please consult a priest and ask him if Jesus was in fact part man, part god or all of one or another. At any rate your indignation, with or without reason, is noted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: Slag Date: 01 May 08 - 11:40 PM Speaking of co opting. You deny the message of Jesus, recast Him in the role of a rebel, something less than divine, representing something less than the Absolute Monarchy to which He is Prince. You do violence to the Scripture, the person of Jesus, the message of Jesus. "Jesus wept." (Jn 11:35) |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: Jim Dixon Date: 01 May 08 - 07:16 PM Like Donuel, I too have a secular interpretation of what happened to Jesus. My ideas were influenced mainly by a book called "Revolution in Judaea" by Hyam Maccoby. In fact, I wrote the following review which is posted at Amazon.com:
By A Customer SYNOPSIS: The New Testament treats Pharisees unfairly. Pharisees were the religious liberals and reformers of their time. They were the founders of rabbinical Judaism. We know from independent sources what they taught, and it was consistent with what Jesus taught; in fact, Jesus probably was a Pharisee. The Sadducees were a puppet government that collaborated with the oppressive Romans; the Pharisees opposed them as hopelessly corrupt. Jesus was a Jew who believed he was the Messiah, and in accordance with orthodox Judaism, he saw this as a political office. Jews saw political oppression as punishment for sin; therefore, repentance was a necessary precondition for overthrow of the oppressors and establishment of a righteous government. Jesus meant his moral teachings as preparation for political revolution. Those who hoped to ingratiate themselves with the Romans expunged Jesus' political views from the NT. They distorted or changed facts to exonerate the Romans for the crucifixion and shift blame to the Jews while blurring the distinction between Jewish factions. Someone who did not understand Jewish law inserted the charge of blasphemy after the fact for this purpose. Jews had a narrow clear definition of blasphemy, and it did not include claiming to be the Messiah. Romans would not have cared whether a Jew committed blasphemy, and the Jewish punishment for blasphemy was stoning, not crucifixion. Only the Romans practiced crucifixion. They reserved it for political criminals and they did not need or seek Jewish consent to use it. OPINION: Maccoby's book is essential for a historical understanding of the origins of Christianity. Drawing on a thorough knowledge of Jewish sources, he corrects many distortions and omissions committed or accepted by Christian commentators. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: Donuel Date: 01 May 08 - 06:21 PM Just merely stopping the sabotage of the planet would be welcome, haveing a great orator is icing on the cake. Maybe then we can put food on our family. A Parasite noticed that it was about to kill its host...Here take this drop of blood back as an economic stimulous package. There isn't that better, but I'll still keep your arm and leg. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: Donuel Date: 01 May 08 - 06:00 PM printable version An Invitation to a Crucifixion. A friend of mine said to me the other day, "Do remember that Obama is only human, though he may well be the best one we've got going!" Before I tell you candidly what I think we are witnessing and what we as a civilization are about to do, I forewarn you that some may think I am saying Obama is Jesus Christ? - GIVE ME A BREAK while a very few will be reminded of the path the US has taken in the Middle East. No, I speak only of the courage and danger of overturning the money lender/changer's table. I speak of the revolutionary idea of not killing the innocent and the meek. I speak of the meaning of some very old teachings that have been twisted into a 180 degree U turn. I speak of human nature's character flaw. I speak of your money and the impossibly wealthy people who want it all. I speak of the daring dream of change. What I see today is a revolutionary man on the corporate owned television channels who is being assassinated in character and perhaps eventually in body as well. Like those who came before him, we will ultimately deny him and silently watch the crucifixion. Historically I view Jesus, the man, as a revolutionary man who challenged the empire and NOT just a remarkable miraculous guy who happened to have a very influential father. Jesus was executed at the hands of the Roman Empire (note that it was not yet the Holy Roman Empire). Jesus was murdered on behalf of the people without an official voice, the poor, the exploited and the outcasts. He called them the meek while today we might call them the people who get spit on all the time with trickle down super capitalism theory or the next neo con strategy for world domination or the Chinese policy of harmonization that arrests and executes people who exercise 'free speech". That Jesus declared himself King of Jews or the son of God was not the issue. The Romans let many cultures carry on with local religions as long as they got their taxes. What sealed Christ's fate was attacking the money lending and stealing financial and political institutions. In today's coarse language, Christ said that not only am I your champion, so is God who loves and favors you more than the 'aftholes' who are 'shipping' on you. That is a revolutionary thing to say. It was beautiful. It caught on. The more the Roman Empire burned the revolutionary Christians or fed them to lions the more resistance blew back against the regime. The more killings there were, the more converts and terrorist groups came forward to resist the Empire. When soldiers became Christian converts they would not fight anymore. The Empire of wealthy men agreed "Something has to be done!" That "something" is to co-opt and pervert it. All they needed was a buyout and a merger. Invite the followers of Jesus in and promise them power, money and all the converts they want. Com'on in and sit down boys, we will give you a seat in the empire and grant you all the success you can imagine. You will have power and the means to convert people anywhere you want. With the power of the State and protection of the Church you will have the power of wealth, armies, genocide and special schools to assist us in spreading the glory of the Lord's word. There were countless committees to determine what to include and what to redact from the Lord's word until finally a contract was agreed upon. The new corporation was called the Holy Roman Empire. As a result of this unholy merger, countless Jesus like revolutionaries and innocent people have been killed, tortured, burned, given Small Pox, starved, and even converted. Co-opting the "word" today is not just the domain of the Vatican which is immune for crimes against humanity, be it the Inquisition or their WWII tacit support of Hitler. Today we have the Evangelical Right who is recognized as the holy arm of the Republican Party which in turn serves the new Empire of Multi National Corporations who writes laws that Congress then approves. Who today is challenging the corporate world Empire? It is not Hillary or John. You will get to witness in your life time NOT just the epic campaign of race, gender and economic war issues ... you will get to see the empire and the co-opted church crucify yet another Jesus like revolutionary. This revolutionary has been so bold as to say the Empire has gone too far and has cost you too much and that some of you may even be bitter about it. It is not just about a livable wage anymore, it is about a livable planet. Some of you are ready to deny him. Some of you already have. Some of you will do so later. Some of you will carry on his words after he is gone. Far too many will think that my words were sacrilegious, when in truth nothing could be further from the truth. I love the church goer but not always the church, I hate the spin but love the spinner, I respect the teaching but not the guy who teaches 'God asked me for your money". I ask only one thing of you. That is to think for yourself while we go through the coming slow motion media crucifixion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: Bobert Date: 01 May 08 - 05:23 PM That's only 'cause they didn't have pickup trucks back then, Eb, or thet would have done the "Texas Drag".... (That's not funny, Bobert...) No, it's not... Wasn't meant to be... As for the Obama/Jesus comparision, Obama's gonna have to do a lotta of catch-up work... But there is one characteristic that both men possess and that is an inner peace... That's a good quality for any leader, revolutionary or not... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: Ebbie Date: 01 May 08 - 04:51 PM "Here in Ft Worth Texas they once hung a dead man back in the middle 1800's. He was not too popular. Once he was buried the folks who hung him the first time dug him up and hung him again." That's Texas for you. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: Arkie Date: 01 May 08 - 04:42 PM While not ready to recognize a divine presense in Obama I do think Donuel's comparison has some merit. I have been reading some of Jimmy Carter's speeches from the late 1970s about establishing a nationwide energy policy and cannot help but wonder how much the big wheels behind the petroleum industry contributed to his defeat by Reagan. I do think that Carter had the interest of the folk of the street at heart. That was not endorsed by his own party or the Republicans. Obama is the closest we have to Jimmy Carter but not as naive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: Wesley S Date: 01 May 08 - 04:35 PM Here in Ft Worth Texas they once hung a dead man back in the middle 1800's. He was not too popular. Once he was buried the folks who hung him the first time dug him up and hung him again. Just to make a point. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: Herga Kitty Date: 01 May 08 - 04:25 PM I'm with Ebbie - saw the thread title and thought, why bother crucifying the dead? Someone should stand up for revolting pedants! Kitty |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: GUEST,Number 6 Date: 01 May 08 - 04:19 PM Oh for Jeeezuz sakes. Now, back to whatever I was doing. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: Amos Date: 01 May 08 - 03:39 PM It really has nothing to do with formal Divinity in the Western traditional sense. The combination of courage, insight, vision and inspiration is enough. And he has those. That will draw out the bitter attack dogs of the Dark Side of the American machine. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: PoppaGator Date: 01 May 08 - 03:17 PM So Jesus might be fudge? |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: Wesley S Date: 01 May 08 - 03:01 PM Basic Divinity |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: Little Hawk Date: 01 May 08 - 02:54 PM "I'm more open to the idea of his possible divinity" Poppa Gator, here's my position on that. I'm open to everyone's possible divinity. ;-) (I think we're all sons and daughters of the Divine) Therefore I see no reason to exclude Jesus in that respect or to set him apart in that respect either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: Amos Date: 01 May 08 - 02:16 PM Deep down, Donuiel, no matter how whacky his proposition may sound on the surface, is spot on. He has put his finger on a sorry, ugly, persistant truth: Whether because of Jungian archetypes, or some other kind of herd dramatization, the man who throws out the money-changers eventually gets stoned to death, or otherwise taken out. Barack's the best chance we have had in a decade to make the country move onto a more rational path. This is not a popular idea to some, because rationality itself is too painful a virtue. Tractability and compliance is much less painful, and more rewarding int he short term. The fact that it undermines civilization is of course not the individual's problem, is it? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: PoppaGator Date: 01 May 08 - 02:04 PM I agree with Donuel's take of the life of Christ, although ~ as a churchgoing semi-agnostic ~ I'm more open to the idea of his possible divinity. I'm less sure about Obama's credentials as a similar sort of revolutionary. On the one hand, Barak does have an awful lot of corporate donors to whom he might be beholden. On the other hand, his message indeed speaks to a citizenry that needs exactly such a spokesman and, as Donuel points out, the bad guys seem awfully anxious to crucify him ~ and that alone makes him look pretty good. Let's face it: it's impossible to make a successful run at the US Presidency without some support from Big Money. I think the best we can hope for in a political leader is someone who'll draw the line somewhere, and refuse to be totally beholden to his benefactors. Maybe, jut maybe, young Barack is that person. I also think that what we need in a President ~ now, certainly, but also at every past and future time ~ is not so much a nuts-and-bolts administrator, but an inspirational leader. Cynics give Obama a lot of grief about offering "only" rhetoric, but I don't see that as a weakness at all; a skilled and inspriring orator is axactly what we DO need. As examples, I could cite Lincoln, Kennedy, FDR, and other presidents almost unaimously recognized as great and important leaders. But I'll offer another example: Ronald Reagan. You may not agree with his agenda ~ I certainly don't ~ but he was tremendously effective in moving the entire nation to fall in line behind the same puppetmasters who were pulling his strings, simply because he was such a skilled actor. Reagan need never have an original idea of his own, nor have been an espesically skilled executive, to have affected history as profoundly as he did. What we need now is a similarly inspiring figurehead to nudge us back in the oposite direction, and Obama sure looks to be our best bet fro that point of view. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: katlaughing Date: 01 May 08 - 01:31 PM that revolution needs to come from the people rather than one man and there isn't a stomach for that in the US The people do have the will, but they lacked a leader, until now...they lacked the hope, until now...they have been made to believe all things are hopeless, they should live in fear and paralysis and purchase more and more to assuage their fear and feelings of impotency, until now...Obama gives them a leader, gives them hope, harnesses their fears, encourages them to conserve and come together in hope and a positive outlook which says "Yes, we can!" And, that, is what will bring about a revolution in this country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: Bee Date: 01 May 08 - 01:31 PM Sorry, Donuel - from North of the border, Obama looks like just another slightly right of centre Democratic candidate, no better and no worse than Clinton, but at least not as openly crazy as Republican McCain. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: Stu Date: 01 May 08 - 01:23 PM "We see a revolutionary who is being assassinated in character and perhaps in body as well." Obama a revolutionary? In what way? Because one of his parents is black? He's just another charlatan in the pocket of big business. He is succeeding in a political system where the prerequisite for success is the fact only the rich and influential can ever be a part of it. To compare Obama to Christ is utterly risible, as is the idea he will challenge the corporate world - that revolution needs to come from the people rather than one man and there isn't a stomach for that in the US - everyone starts whinging when they are told their SUV's are screwing up the planet. The Roman Empire is an apt analogy however, and it ended with the barbarians overrunning a feeble, squabbling state which had lost it's way a long, long time before it met it's end at the hands of the people it spent so long pissing on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: Donuel Date: 01 May 08 - 01:11 PM JFK was not the only populist president of late. Carter was also a populist who just happened to have the empire credentials of being both military and Southern. I still grin to think how instrumental Iran was in the election of Ronald Reagan - right down to the very minute of hostage release and the oath of office, and how selling weapons to Iran for cash to buy cocaine to sell on American streets to raise money for an illegal war in El Salvadore ened up helping no one except for Oliver North. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: Little Hawk Date: 01 May 08 - 12:54 PM Hey, it's been happening ever since Nov 22, 1963 and it's still going. Darn right we're in for a long one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: Donuel Date: 01 May 08 - 12:50 PM My dear Ebbie, you indeed are a literalist about some things. Jeez I hope you don't have OCD too...but be that as it may, if that is the only exeption you take, you are a very enlightend human being indeed. I heard crucifiction can sometimes take a day or two. I think were in for a very long one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: Ebbie Date: 01 May 08 - 12:45 PM The only exception I take is to the title: "...the Living Christ"? Doesn't make much sense to crucify someone after they are dead. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: Donuel Date: 01 May 08 - 12:32 PM Spaw for the last time, the PM button to send your address is right over there... |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: Donuel Date: 01 May 08 - 12:31 PM an edit: Some of you are ready (to) deny him. Jesus would not call me a heretic. If he were alive he might call me chicken shit for not doing the real dangerous work and that I only write about it hoping someone else will do the real creative work to enlighten and feed the world. The co-opted church and their ditto heads would certainly call me a heretic whacko. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: catspaw49 Date: 01 May 08 - 12:29 PM You're in rare form today Donny..............Send me some of that narcotic huh? I could use some right now.............. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: Little Hawk Date: 01 May 08 - 12:19 PM That's an interesting viewpoint, Donuel. Your viewpoint on Jesus' role at the time sounds about right to me. I also view Jesus as a man, and a very revolutionary figure in his time. You may be right about Obama as well in our time, I'm not sure. Prepare, however, to be laughed at, insulted, hounded, and ridiculed by a considerable number of people on this forum. |
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Subject: BS: To crucify the living Christ From: Donuel Date: 01 May 08 - 12:05 PM dear catters, I got a rare but welcome PM after a humorous post of mine that satirically showed Obama doing the very things that got Jesus in so much trouble. the PM message... "Do remember that Obama is only human, though he may well be the best one we've got going!" I am now going to step outside of the satire box and tell you candidly what we are witnessing and what we are about to do. We see a revolutionary who is being assassinated in character and perhaps in body as well. We will ultimately deny him. I am an atheist who views Jesus as a man, a revolutionary man who challenged the empire and NOT just a benign good guy with empathy and hippy notions who just happened to have a very influential father. So don't think I am denying your beliefs or that I am am calling some one new the son of God. Jesus got murdered on behalf of the people without an official voice, the poor, the exploited and the outcasts. He called them the meek while today we might call them the people who get shit on all the time with trickle down super capitalism theory or the next neo con strategy for world domination. In today's coarse language Christ said that not only am I your champion, so is God who loves and favors you more than the assholes who are shitting on you. That is a revolutionary thing to do. It was beautiful. It caught on. The more the Roman empire burned the revolutionaries or fed them to lions the more resistance blew back against the regime. The more killings there were the more converts and terrorist groups came forward to resist the empire. When soldiers became Christian converts they would not fight anymore. The empire of wealthy men agreed "Something has to be done!" That "something" is to co-opt and pervert it. Invite the followers of Jesus in and promise them power, money and all the converts they want. Com'on in and sit down boys, we will give you a seat in the empire and grant you all the success you can imagine. You will have power and the means to convert people anywhere you want. With the power of the State and the Church you will have the power of wealth, genocide, armies and special schools to assist us in spreading the glory of the Lord. As a result countless Jesus like revolutionaries and innocent people have been crucified, tortured, burned, given intentional disease, starved, and converted. Co-opting the "word" today is not just the domain of the Vatican which can not be prosecuted for crimes against humanity from the Inquisition through WWII and their tacit support of Hitler, today we have the Evangelical Right who are the holy arm of the Republican party and the new Empire of Multi National (Off Shore) Corporations. (note that they are always off shore and out of reach of our control and regulation) Who today is challenging the corporate world Empire? It is not Hillary or John. You will get to witness in your life time NOT just the epic campaign of race, gender and economic war issues ... you will get to see the empire and the co-opted church crucify yet another Jesus like revolutionary. Some of you are ready deny him. Some of you already have. Some of you will do so later. |
