BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: EBarnacle
Date: 06 May 08 - 10:07 AM

Kat has touched on an issue I was going to raise.

There was a story on NPR a few days ago stating that all of the tracks involved in the triple crown were being resurfaced [I do not remember whether it was for this year or next] with a new material which should minimize the possibility of the sort of damage that Eight Belles took this year.

Now, was the surface in place? If so, does that mean that the damage is a result of breeding or of the horse being asked to run full out on an unnatural surface?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Bobert
Date: 06 May 08 - 09:32 AM

Ummmmm, not to be splittin' hairs here but I'm not too sure they "love" racing at the levels to which racing has become... Mnay horses experience "internal bleeding" from being pushed "too hard"... That's why horses are given urine tests after races top see if there is blood in the urine... I think that is bit much...

Horses, however, do love people, being around people and pleasing people which you may be confusing with them "loving" racing... Dogs love to be in dog shows too but I reckon if they were expected to perform at 100% of their capacity and maybe kill or injures they wouldn't love it as much...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 May 08 - 08:57 AM

I was rooting for the filly - didn't know that Hil had anything to do with it. I was sorry to hear she broke down (the filly, that is).

Horses LOVE racing. Don't ignore that part. Doesn't mean people don't do mean things to *win* - but racing itself is a joy to the horses. You can tell.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Amos
Date: 05 May 08 - 07:49 PM

Bee Dub, I know, I know.

If more humans exercised their capacity for rising above their lower instincts, we would be in a much better place today.

Maybe Cleveland or something.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Bobert
Date: 05 May 08 - 05:59 PM

Good points, Beezer...

I'd just like to add that horses are alot like dogs in that they want to please their people...

This is what leads them to overdo stuff...

I think it is interesting that George Orwell choze the horse to symbolize that willing to please in having the horses di in the fields trying to do too much of the work...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 05 May 08 - 05:42 PM

I'm not saying horses or any other animals lack intelligence. What they lack is the ability to willfully do something that's contrary to the instinctive drives bound up in their DNA. A horse will kill itself trying to pull a greater load than it's capable of pulling. Why? Not because it's stupid, but because the people who've selectively bred horses over the years have bred for a specific set of traits and a strong instinct for self-preservation has not been one of those traits. On the other hand, a mule will refuse to pull a load that's more than it can handle. It's had a strong instinct for self-preservation bred back into it via the burro side of its parentage.

Animal behaviors are matters of instinct. An animal has no choice but to behave in the way it does because the behavior has been programmed into its DNA. Humans have the option of behaving differently. A trained rescue dog is not behaving courageously. It's only doing what its genetic makeup, reinforced by training from humans, is telling it to do. A human rescuer is behaving courageously because he has the option of doing otherwise. Ascribing human motives to non-human animals is anthropomorphic, or pathetic*, fallacy.

Animal behavior is, at most, a metaphor for human behavior. The problem is that it's such a great metaphor that some people lose sight of the fact that it is a metaphor and see the two as one and the same. The aren't, and haven't been since the day free will became a part of the human psyche.

*"Pathetic" in the sense of "empathy", not in any derogatory or pejorative sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Bobert
Date: 05 May 08 - 04:51 PM

Now, P-Gator... I weren't gloatin', gol dnagit... Okay, I prolly should have just named the thread "Horse Racin' Sucks"...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 May 08 - 04:49 PM

BDL, I'd suggest a perusal of an article in March 2008 National Geographic which differs from what you claim. Living with a McNab border collie, myself, I can vouch for the veracity of the bit about bcs, for sure!:-)

I was talking to a friend who watched the race and is very knowledgeable about horses. She says the people who come out once a year to bitch about races should concentrate more of their efforts in going after glue factories, etc.

Also, she said there is a general agreement that two year old's bones are not strong enough for racing AND they are developing some synthetic racecourse material which would be easier on the horses legs, feet, bones, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Amos
Date: 05 May 08 - 04:39 PM

HEy, Hillary needs all the help she can get, but her picking skills are a little thin...


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 May 08 - 04:26 PM

Everything about this is wrong. Hillary was wrong to enlist a horse in her campaign, and my buddy Bobert was wrong to gloat about the unfortunate later development.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 May 08 - 03:12 PM

I think if there was no gambling in horse racing it would be a noble sport, just like dressage and the other olympic events seem to be but those horses are bred for intelligence and don't reach their prime until they are four or more.

take the gambling out and horse racing would be fine. Of course there would be a lot fewer tracks and it would only be practiced by people who actually love horses.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Genie
Date: 05 May 08 - 03:01 PM

After rewatching the last part of "Gulliver's Travels" on TV a couple days ago, Bee Dub, I just can't think of horses as less noble beings than the Yahoos who breed, train, race and otherwise use - or abuse - them.


G

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Amos
Date: 05 May 08 - 01:07 PM

That's not true at all, Spaw. You can put Descarted nefore the horse, but you cannot make him think.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Bobert
Date: 05 May 08 - 12:41 PM

LOL, Spawzer...

Yeah, I used to think that they couldn't do math until a couple years ago and we field boarded two horses and at night the P-Vine and I would take 3 carrots each out to them... Her horse, Bud Lite, wasn't as good at math as my horse, Battle Ax 'cause if I went out there with two carrots in my hand and one in my back pocket she would raise Cain after she had the two carrots 'cause she knew there had to be one more... So I'd give heer the 3rd and she'd just walk away witghout any more begging... Now I don't know if that is math but is counting...

As fir having compassion for four legged critters, I ain't waten no four legged critter in 41 years now... No cows, no pigs, no lamb, no nuthin' if it has 4 legs... Fish, tho, beware but we don't race fish and I really don't think they are all that smart...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 May 08 - 12:24 PM

Quite true Amos. Horses can learn almost as much as humans. You can teach themm math and science, geography and economics. The only subject they cannot grasp is phiolosophy. Of course that's simply because its a known fact that you can't put Descartes before the horse...........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Amos
Date: 05 May 08 - 11:23 AM

Aw, Bee Dybb. you just spoil all the fun. Horses communicate and have feelings and do math and have attitudes, you know. Anyone who is the least bot telepathic knows this. It's common knowledge that they are just people in quadruped bodies, with rather large teeth.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 05 May 08 - 10:48 AM

Sorry, folks, but I really don't get this anthropomorphic attitude people seem to have toward race horses. They're selectively bred farm animals, for God's sake! They're not human! The sports media referring to them as "athletes" is utter hyperbole. Might as well refer to Danica Patrick's racecar as an athlete.

Yeah, the horse didn't deserve to die, but neither did the cow I had a big chunk of for supper last night. But I'm not going to stop eating steak because I feel sorry for a cow, and I doubt too many gambling junkies are going to quit betting on horse races because they feel sorry for the horses. And face it, gambling, the simple greedy human desire to get something for nothing, is what horse racing is all about. Everything else is just window dressing. If nobody gambled, there'd be no horse races.

I think people are more upset over the death of this horse than they'd be if the jockey had been trampled to death. Maybe that's because the jockey would have chosen to risk his life while the horse didn't. But that's anthropomorphic thinking again. The horses don't know what "choice" means. They just do what their instincts tell them to do, and if they're bred to maximize their instinct to run fast, that's what they're going to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 08 - 10:30 AM

Generally, the talk about 'injustice' that people indulge in seems to stop at their candidate. As long as it's the other guy or gal it's ok. That is simply two-faced shit and isn't really about injustice or unfairness. This is similar to the problem facing the whole Democratic Party, and unless they get real smart real fast, the US will end up in the hands of the damned Republicans and the 'righteous' can go off moaning about it all. I'm tired of the political crap on Mudcat because it has destroyed on-line friendships and will continue to do so. However, as long as folks are happy with the situation it will continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Bobert
Date: 05 May 08 - 10:07 AM

Thank you for your support, JtS...

Yeah, lotta really wound up Obama haters gere who see Obama behind every bush, ummmmm, make that tree...

lol...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 May 08 - 09:25 AM

I am sorry but there is nothing noble about it. Racing horses are bred to have too much muscle and too little bone for the size of the horse. They are pushed too hard, too young for no other reasons than human ego and money. That's why their bones break while they are doing what should come natural to a horse. That horse had no choice in what she did. and what her owners did to her was anything but noble.

It is a remarkable coincidence that this thing happened to the one horse that Clinton picked. But it is not so unusual that Clinton could not have seen it as a possibility. There are two inescapable facts here.

1. That Clinton pandered by talking about the horse in the lead up to the Kentucky primary.
2. That the the horse died.

That people are giving Bobert a hard time for remarking on a coincidence that major US media companies have remarked on says a lot more about the people complaining than Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: GUEST,foreshadow
Date: 05 May 08 - 03:07 AM

Hillary used that horse because she was in Kentucky. The state's primary is in two weeks and she wanted to appeal to "blue collar" workers. So, she makes the worst mistake a person can make to an athlete and that is to jinx them.

Basically, this says it all:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7d2q58MDRc#GU5U2spHI_4

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 May 08 - 11:50 PM

Indeed, Genie.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 May 08 - 11:15 PM

Quite so, Genie.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Genie
Date: 04 May 08 - 11:06 PM

Geez, I was hoping for a sensitive, even spirited, maybe even combative discussion about Eight Belles! Heck, I've even been thinking Eight Belles' heroic effort and determination (continuing to fight even after her jockey heard an ankle snap and tried to get her to stop) might become the stuff of a modern folk song.   Instead, we get pointless (not to mention sometimes disingenuous and exploitive) digs at our 2-footed political candidates.

Let's have a little respect here, please.

Oh, and for a noble race horse as well.


Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 May 08 - 10:43 PM

The exploitation is in linking the Kentucky Derby tragedy to politics. There are, heaven knows, enough legitimate approaches to point out Hillary's many flaws without bringing in this filly.

She suggested that her supporters bet on a horse. The horse is now dead. She has shown absolutely wretched judgment on a whole host of issues. But picking the wrong horse has no bearing on any of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 May 08 - 10:21 PM

"Exploitation"? Are you serious? It was a comment on a news item. If MSNBC can say it why can't Bobert?

The exploitation is carried out by the breeders and trainers.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 May 08 - 10:14 PM

I think it's a shame that Eight Belles had to be put down. I suppose it's for the best, but it's a bloody shame that that was the reward after the horse gave her all.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Jim Lad
Date: 04 May 08 - 08:53 PM

I would have read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 04 May 08 - 08:45 PM

Oops!

I know that there is indeed a great deal of exploitation of animals in any form of racing, but I also know that this horse probably died doing what it loved to do.

It's a tragedy, but not one that happens often. And I know alot of breeders, trainers, ranch hands and fans are deeply disturbed that it did happen. Most of them love each and every horse although there are indeed some who think of it as just a profit making enterprise.

By far I think that fox hunts are far more inhumane and unfortunately the man made steeplechases are far more destructive to both horses and riders.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Bobert
Date: 04 May 08 - 08:35 PM

Well, Ron... The intent was to get folks to zero in on the inhumanity of racing horses... Oklay, perhaps I am guilty of using Hillary in an off-manner to make the point but...

...if I had stared a thread entitled "Eight Belles Breaks Leg" no one would have read it...

My apologies for using Mrs. Clinton's name to push one of my beefs... It had nothing to do with her other than she had been promoting this particular horse...

Geeshhhhhh........

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 May 08 - 05:32 PM

I have to say I can't see the point of this thread. It looks like exploitation of the unfortunate death of a horse.

Seems fairly evident that all the people who like to make political commentary should migrate back to the overtly political threads--of which there may be more than one.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Amos
Date: 04 May 08 - 05:23 PM

Well, if she can't choose policy better than she can choose campaign managers or racehorses, with all due respect, she needs to retread her studies of Probability 101.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Bobert
Date: 04 May 08 - 05:08 PM

That's just it, Jim... There is no humor in this thread... I wasn't intended to be humorous... You misread it from the jump, thought it was some kinda funny, haha, thread when it really is abioutr tragedy...

The reason I called it "Hillary's Filly Breaks Down" is because anyone who has heard her over the last week knows that she has brought "Eight Belles" into her speeches which created even more interest in the "horse" race...

I'd be willing to bet that over half the people who heard her didn't even know there was gonna be a filly in the Derby and watched it because of attending one of her rallies...

This thread wasn't started to throw any dirt on Hillary... Seems when McCarthyism sets in it there are commies behind every bush... You and Fantz need to re-examine your "react"ions because they are approaching knee-jerk levels...

Square business...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Jim Lad
Date: 04 May 08 - 04:56 PM

You know.... It's a long, long way from pulling the wings off flies to shooting horses.

I doubt that Senator Obama sees the humour in this situation.

Whomever started this thread.... owns it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Bobert
Date: 04 May 08 - 04:22 PM

Well, speakin' ofhorses there are a couple of posts here thaat are proff that in this world there are more horse's asses than there are horses...

Fantz, you are so off target here that you should run this threade off on your pronter and take it to you next appointment with yer shrink... You are sick...

And, Jim, you ain't that far behind her...

This thread wasn't intended to have one thing to do with Obama... It about a horse race and horse racing in general... I don't buy this crap that these horses are bred for racing... No horse is meant to race that hard... That's why after every race the urine is checked to see if the horse pushed so hard as to have internal injuries and blood in the urine... That's every race horse at every track... But those are the dirty little secrets that they don't tell you about...

But now if the Lad/Fantz Obama Hater's Express wants to turn a horse race, and yes, one that Mrs. Clinton talked about last week, into yet another hate thread then have at it...

Frankly, you are both paranoid and it;'s getting rather tiresome... I'm gonna go out an' work in the garden where there a little peace from the utter noise coming outta the Obama haters...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Jim Lad
Date: 04 May 08 - 03:36 PM

The animal was raised for sport and gave all that it had to please her owners with absolutely no regard for her own health or survival.
There's a time to be cynical and a time for compassion.
To use this sad event as some kind of metaphor to promote your own political agenda is extremely low.
Perhaps you should reflect on just how far you have descended in the name of Obama.
Racism is okay.
Democracy is fine just as long as you get to choose who votes.
Competitors should get out of the race.
Selective memory is fine when it suits your cause.
Name calling is just dandy unless it comes from your opponent.
Shady dealings with influence peddlers are acceptable just as long as no charges are laid.
And now the death of a beautiful creature is somehow funny because Hillary placed a bet on it.

Some Messiah!

He has taken some of you so far down the path of division that you may never find your way back.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: balladeer
Date: 04 May 08 - 03:17 PM

It is impossible to convince cynics that every now and then someone comes along who isn't in it for the money.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Amos
Date: 04 May 08 - 03:14 PM

Fantzi,

Your slathering denunciation of a decent human being is beneath even your own contempt for reactionary muckrakery.

Did you lose your meds this weekend?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 May 08 - 03:10 PM

Fantasma - how does that make Obama different from any other candidate who has run for president in the past 50 years? I am confused. Every presidential candidate is after power and has climbed to the top with the backing of Big Money. I am not disagreeing with you or defending Obama. Just surprised that you seem to think this obvious and sad situation is either something new or exclusive to any one candidate.

I hate horse racing. It is abusive. As are boxing, dog racing and cat shows.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 May 08 - 03:03 PM

"I hope that everybody will go to the derby on Saturday and place just a little money on the filly for me," Sen. Clinton told supporters in Jeffersonville, Ind., ABC News reports. "I won't be able to be there this year - my daughter is going to be there and so she has strict instructions to bet on Eight Belles."

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 May 08 - 03:01 PM

"Just days ago, Sen. Hillary Clinton asked volunteers in Louisville, KY to "bet on the filly" in the Kentucky Derby."

It was Hillary that made it political.

She was pandering by trying to appeal to the Kentucky Derby audience and it came back to bite her.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 04 May 08 - 01:23 PM

That is where Bobert and his ilk play the game, though Jim Lad.

Rather like Obama. He wants to be the first African American presidential nominee from a major party, and he really doesn't care if he has to lie and deceive to get there--which he has, in spades.

He figured out what states he had to win in order to make his delegate lead insurmountable, and that is what he and his campaign have done in a very cold, calculated way. That is how you win in a proportional representation caucus and primary system like the Democrats have.

It has been a brilliant, unconventional strategy--but anyone who thinks it is because Obama genuinely cares about the 75% of the voters in Idaho that they sent their campaign drones out to pick up at their houses and drive to the caucus sites--has another thing coming. Once Obama gets the delegates, he doesn't give a shit about rural America.   All his "I'm a small town white boy from Kansas just like you" persona is a phony load of crap, when you look at what his life style since he became an adult--which was to get the hell out of small town America and never look back.

The big clue we weren't in Kansas anymore? The god & guns comments to the wealthy Democratic party liberal elite in San Francisco--well out of earshot of all those small minded, stupid and uneducated hicks he clearly holds in such contempt.

THAT is the true Obama. His campaign is all about "yes we can"--"yes we can" exploit the voting public to allow him to realize his venal ambitions.

Just like every other Big Money politician in history.

It ain't about what's best for our country. It is all about what Obama wants, Obama knows how to get.

But mind you, Bobert et al aren't sexist, or anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Jim Lad
Date: 04 May 08 - 01:13 PM

This is way below the belt.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Bobert
Date: 04 May 08 - 12:31 PM

Made this ol' hillbilly break down, too... I love horses... They are so smart and funny... 'cept the mean 'uns, that is that try to kick and bite ya but nuthin' like a couple carrots and they become pussy cats, too..

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 May 08 - 12:23 PM

How sexist that sounds, Rapaire.

Now I know why I forgot to watch. That would have been too heartbreaking to see happen.

FWIW, I think it's a shame a thread about a horse and loss has to have politics in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 May 08 - 12:19 PM

Yeah. A better filly than Hilly.

Subject: BS: Hillary's Filly Breaks Down...
From: Bobert
Date: 04 May 08 - 09:30 AM

All week, Hillary Clinton was talkin' about the filly, Eight Belles, who yestrerday broke two ankles and had to be put down minutes after the completion of the Kentucy Derby...

Sniff... I hate to see animals abused and horse racing, IMHO, is at best borderline abuse... I mean, when I worked back ion Loudoun Co. Va. I knew a few trainers and some of the stuff they do to these poor animals to prepare them to race is inhumane...

Just MO...

BTW, no omen seen here but Hillary's favorite was beaten by Big Brown...

B~