sliabh luachra music

Subject: RE: sliabh luachra music
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:17 PM

Manits is spot on, emphasising that polka can mean two(or more different things) Polka, as in Kerry polka, is a term used for a tune for set dancing(a form of quadrille dancing|). Not be confused with a set dance, which is a quite different kind of tune for a quite different sort of dance. And not to be confused with the dance the polka, and the tunes associated with it. Though, of course, some Kerry polka tunes are tunes used for dancing polkas to as well. Confused? you will be.
(Next discusssion: what do we mean by hornpipe?)

Subject: RE: sliabh luachra music
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:51 AM

yes, they are used for dancing in sets.
not to be confused with solo dancing.
        This set from County Cork, Ireland is also known as the DUNMANWAY POLKA SET.
            Take waltz hold for swings, quarterhouses, houses and when dancing slide in/outs.
            Chain: Low follow -- With a waist-height hold for all contacts, ladies grasp right
                      hands in the center and dance to the opposite gent (who has danced to his partner's
                      position); couples grasp left hands and dance around one another anticlockwise
                      (no arch); ladies chain with the right hands on the way home also.
            Slide in and out: Gents dance toward the center LEFT, RIGHT, LEFT, RIGHT then toward home
                     RIGHT, LEFT, RIGHT, LEFT, RIGHT.   Ladies dance toward the center RIGHT, LEFT, RIGHT,
                     LEFT then toward home LEFT, RIGHT, LEFT, RIGHT, LEFT.
            Gents dance forward on the left foot and ladies begin forward on the right foot.
            Bar counts (quantities of measures) for patterns are shown in bold.
            The total bar count for each Figure includes an eight-bar introduction of music.
            First side couple is on the right of the first top couple.
            Documentation is based upon the DUNMANWAY SET having been danced fall
                      2000 at North Olmsted, Ohio USA.
             Edition of October 4, 2006 -- Contact [e-mail]
            
SET FORMATION   FIGURE 1 -- POLKAS (104 BARS)
All couples:         REPEAT "MARKER" quarterhouse (body, polka body, in-out-and-around)16;
Top couples:         house each other8;
        ladies chain8;
        swing8;
Side couples:         repeat from REPEAT "MARKER" 40.
All couples:         quarterhouse16.
SET FORMATION   FIGURE 2 -- SLIDES (152 BARS)
All couples:         REPEAT "MARKER" slide and change:   slide in/out 4; house half-way around4;
                                            slide in/out4; house half-way around4.
Top couples:         first top couple : house inside8;
        slide in/out4;
        dance at home (one revolution)4.
All couples:         repeat from REPEAT "MARKER" with first side, second top then second side couples leading96;
        slide and change as above16.
SET FORMATION   FIGURE 3 -- POLKAS (296 BARS)
All couples:         quarterhouse16.
Top couples:         REPEAT "MARKER" house each other8;
        ladies chain8;
        swing8;
        in waltz hold, dance in-place (no turns)4;
        dance at home, still in waltz hold (one revolution)4;
        cross, steal a lady then form a center-circle :
                  first top couple cross the set right-hand-in-right where second top
                           couple stand right-hand-in-right2;
                  second top gent takes the crossing lady's left hand and pulls both ladies
                           under his arms, keeping hands at the shoulders2;
                  first top gent takes ladies' inside hands and all dance to the center, pull
                           hands up to form a circle and all bow4.
        little Christmas6; reverse to home2;
        ladies chain8;
        swing8.
All couples:         repeat from REPEAT "MARKER" with first side, second top then second side couples leading192.
        quarterhouse16.
SET FORMATION   FIGURE 4 -- SLIDES (152 BARS)   
All couples:         REPEAT "MARKER" slide and change as in Figure Two16.
All ladies:         pinwheel clockwise with the right hand, making one and one-half turns,
                  ending with the opposite gent8;
        swing new partner8;
        slide and change as in Figure Two16;
All gents:         pinwheel anticlockwise with the left hand, making one and one-half turns, ending
                  with original partner (at opposite)8;
        swing original partner8;
All couples:         repeat from REPEAT "MARKER" to re-establish original home positions64.
        slide and change as in Figure Two16.
SET FORMATION   FIGURE 5 -- POLKAS (216 BARS)   
All couples:         lead around anticlockwise in open waltz hold, dancing two bars on-the-spot
                  at each position16.
        REPEAT "MARKER" quarterhouse16.
All ladies:         pinwheel clockwise with the right hand3; drop hands and reverse direction1;
                  pinwheel anticlockwise with the left hand, ending one position to the right
                  of their starting position4;
All gents:         pinwheel with the right hand3; drop hands and reverse direction1, pinwheel
                  with the left hand, ending at the gents' home position4;
New couples:         swing8;
        repeat from REPEAT "MARKER" to re-establish original partners120.
All couples:         quarterhouse16;
        lead around anticlockwise in open waltz hold, dancing two bars on-the-spot
                  at each position16.

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S E T F O R M A T I O N

Subject: RE: sliabh luachra music
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:38 AM

But that's the couple dance. Aren't Kerry polkas usually used for set dances?

Subject: RE: sliabh luachra music
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:35 AM

also it needs to be clarified that irish polkas have evolved in dance form,they no longer have the hop,that distingushes dances to tunes like the JENNY LIND,as played by English bands,1 2 3 hop.

Subject: RE: sliabh luachra music
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:52 AM

To avoid anyone having to plough through the article, I discuss in it, briefly, the tune commonly known as "Tell me ma when I get home".(Those words, like "love is but a lassie yet" define the polka rhythm). The children's song refers to Belfast City, and is now ubiquitous in Ireland, due I suspect to the Clanceys and other groups. Johnny O'Leary, the legendary Sliabh luchra accordionist, played it in the 50's and called it Din Tarrant's Polka, I believe (presumably because he didn't know, or had forgotten, its name). How long it had been around there, who knows?
William Irwin, in Cumbria in northwest England in 1860ish, called it the King's Polka. (Perhaps Johnny O'Leary, a good Republican, didn't like the title?). O'Leary and Irwin, incidentally, both played the same second part to the tune.
I don't know where you can hear an O'Leary recording,but you can hear the Lake District tune here(I hope). You'll need to click on the tune set called Dear Tobacco, and wait for the third tune. Don't be put off by the disorted fiddle sound on the second tune, I need to sort that out, it seems to have spontaneously degraded.
Anyway, I hope the relationship, geographical and chronol0gical, is of interest.

Subject: RE: sliabh luachra music
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:28 AM

Kerry, or Irish polkas, bear only a limited relationship to the more standard forms of polkas which spread all through Europe and America from 1850ish on. Irish musicians played both types(and the hybrids), which confuse the issue. Another element of confusion is that many four bar reels(in Ireland and thoughout Britain)were readily coverted into 8 bar polkas by playing them slowly, but with a speeded up beat.
(This point is possibly incomprehensible to non-trad musicians. As an example, think of the well known dance tune "My love is but a Lassie Yet". To play it as a polka, eg for the Cumberland Square Eight, the notes Love Is But A Lassie Yet would go oompa oompa oompa pa. In the original(?) reel tempo, those same notes would go faster, but with a slower underlying basic rhythmm, as diddle diddle diddle did). This is how many polkas were"manufactured" in the far northwest of Europe, by refiguring existing tunes. Just as waltzes were similarly constructed by slowing down jigs.)
    Thus polka tunes, for example, can often predate the dance, and the name Polka. This makes research into tune origins extremely complicated, and also very tendentious when pure research comes up against national pride, as is inevitable in this murky field.
   For an interesting(possibly?) digression on the arrival of polkas in the sliabh luachra, try my article on William Irwin. But I should warn you, it a longish article, and the polka reference is only a few lines!

Subject: RE: sliabh luachra music
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:25 AM

in fact the term Sliabh luchra music seems ,according to some older musicians relatively new,a term possibly coined in the 1960s.
obviously OKeefe /murphy/Clifford were playing these tunes prior to this,but nobody had categorised /marketed the style.

Subject: RE: sliabh luachra music
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:16 AM

there is atune in ONEILLS which is in fact OldZipCoon,in the foreword.he O neill says[doubtless some over zealous champion of irish music will criticise the inclusion of number739 in this collection however convincing evidence of its Irish antecedents came to hand a few years ago in a roll of ageing manuscript belonging to the omahonys of Dunmanway],
pull the other one Mr ONeill.,it is an American minstrel tune,even if it was performed by an Irishman Dan Emmett.
ONeill ALSO SAYS if we have trespassed on our British neighbours,we hardly owe them an apology,as from their own admission they have availed themselves very liberally of our dance music for centuries,and it is quite probable that we are merely reclaiming our own heritage.
So judging from ONeills fairly catholic/ almost all embracing attitude to what was Irish it seems unlikely that he excluded polkas,because they werenot IRISH,more likely that his musicians didnt play them.
an old west cork fiddler said to me about 1995,of course we never used to play polkas that was Kerry music,we used to play for the pattern dances and tunes like the Blackbird for solo dancing.
So although Sliabh luchra polkas have exteneded beyond Sliabh Luchra,this might appear to be phenomenon of the last forty /50 years,since Comhaltas have been formed.
it is possible that O Neill did not have any kerry musicians,as sources for tunes.

Subject: RE: sliabh luachra music
From: MartinRyan
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:01 AM

Mazurkas and schottisches/highlands turn up in Donegal, at the other end of the country. Polkas turn up in Sliabh Luachra and one or two other places. Slides are (I think) pretty well confined to Kerry. Waltzes are (now at least) pretty scarce in the Irish dance music tradition - and not locally defined, as far as I know.

Regards

Subject: RE: sliabh luachra music
From: Paul Burke
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:44 AM

Could the adoption of the polka in Kerry be related to the proximity to the tourist industry in Killarney? The demand for musicians playing fashionable dances for tourists would make the form known to local musicians- they would have schottisches, waltzes, mazurkas etc. too- what is the prevalence of these in Kerry?

Subject: RE: sliabh luachra music
From: MartinRyan
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:11 AM

You mean I'm going to have to reread "Irish Folk Music - A Fascinating Hobby" all over again??!!

Let's stick to polkas for now. If Vallely is right about the dates for introduction of the type into Ireland, O'Neill is most unlikely to have heard what we now think of as sliabh luachra polkas. In a way, the more interesting problem is to try to plot the timeline for absorption of the tune type into the Irish tradition - in those few places where it happened before the advent of recordings. Was there a phase of general popularity followed by sporadic local survival - or was it simply taken up sporadically and never outgrew its original breeding ground? I suspect the latter - and the enormous influence one or two gifted player/teachers could have. I have a vague suspicion that someone has done or is doing a Master's thesis in University of Limerick on a related topic.

Regards

Subject: RE: sliabh luachra music
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:54 AM

Not entirely correct, Martin. He wrote down systematically those tunes his informants played that he considered to be Irish. He did not publish the tunes his informants played that he didn't think were Irish(or at least had strong Irish connections). The problem is, what did he leave out, and does everybody today agree with his classifications?

Subject: RE: sliabh luachra music
From: MartinRyan
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:46 AM

O'Neill basically collected from the musicians he knew or could find in Chicago - he wasn't trying to be exhaustive (nor systematic, for that matter), in a sense. There's no reason I know of to believe there was any cultural filtering, so to speak, going on.

Regards
p.s. You're not suggesting, of course, that something is "extremely odd" BECAUSE it's "un Irish"? Nor the reverse? ;)

Subject: RE: sliabh luachra music
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:34 AM

O'Neill didn't include waltzes either. Possibly he, like Comhaltas, concentrated on what they perceived to be "pure" Irish music, and felt anything called a polka must have originated outside of Ireland. Why he did not apply thge same reasoning to hornpipes and jigs is a matter of conjecture.This is a very interesting topic, and to discuss it in detail, as many have, is to open several buckets of worms. There is a lot about sliabh luachra music that is extremely odd and "un Irish", as there is in Donegal too of course.

Subject: RE: sliabh luchra music
From: MartinRyan
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:46 AM

Fintan Vallely's Companion to Irish Music dates their arrival in Ireland to late 1800's - which would explain their absence from O'Neill. Not exclusively Slieve Luachra, of course.

Regards

Subject: sliabh luchra music
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:15 AM

In O neills 1001,there are no polkas,does this mean,that when he formed his collection,they were not being played.,or did he choose to ignore them.
this work[1001] was published in 1903.
Francis o neill died in 1936.
are there any collections of polkas in his later books,is there any evidence at all,as to when polkas entered the irish repertoire.