BS: Ancient Trees Found in Mines

Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Trees Found in Mines
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 11:49 AM

I was taught this stuff at school in the 1960's.
And aren't the ancient trees found in mines called 'coal'?
What's the big surprise there?

Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Trees Found in Mines
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 09:54 AM

"My point - and the point of most people - is that we would prefer the earth to survive WITH us."

Yes - but not without all the modern perks that got us into this mess int he first plac. Most people (worldwide) continue to destroy our environment. Some out of greed; some out of necessity. My views are neither cynical nor "gloom and doom". I am simply commenting on what I see to be true.

Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Trees Found in Mines
From: Bee
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 02:02 AM

The science that explains why bearded bruce is wrong about the effrcts of water vapour...


http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2005/04/water-vapour-feedback-or-forcing/

And I wish just once, certain American climate change deniers would forget to bring up Gore. You talk like he's the only person in the world concerned about anthropogenic climate change. I've never seen his movie. He doesn't have anything to do with my opinions on climate change. And I'm sure I'm not alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Trees Found in Mines
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 12:58 AM

Global warming is indeed a naturally occurring process. So is flooding, earthquake, and a field of columbines. Such processes are neutral in the scientific sense. It is their impact on man that determines our reaction to them.
Man-caused global warming is an unnatural process, in that it is unnatural for a creature to willingly participate in its own destruction.

Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Trees Found in Mines
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 11:19 PM

"My point is that these same events have taken place before and the earth went on. With or without us it will survive. We are but a blip on the Universe's radar."

My point - and the point of most people - is that we would prefer the earth to survive WITH us.

Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Trees Found in Mines
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 10:51 PM

So, can anyone here show the calculation of how much additional water vapor is put into the atmosphere by all those "environmentally correct" trees that absorb the CO2?


Not quite the simple problem that Gore says it is.

Simple answer--I'll take Gore's word over yours any day. And Gore has some solid science behind him--if you take a look, there is a lot more detail than simply appears in a 2-hour film. But you have to take the time to look.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Trees Found in Mines
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 10:22 PM

The most important climactic factor when talking in terms of tens of millions of years is not chemical change in the atmosphere, but continental drift. We currently live on a planet where the south pole is covered by a big land mass and the north pole is tightly surrounded by other land masses. As a result, there is no flow of warming ocean water over the south pole, and very little over the north pole. So, they're both frozen year-round. It hasn't always been like that. Antarctica moved over the south pole fairly recently, in geologic terms. Before that, ocean currents flowed freely over the pole and the climate was much warmer than today.

Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Trees Found in Mines
From: Amos
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 04:59 PM

One of the peculiar properties of species--all species--is that they tend to go extinct, sometimes suddenly.

The survival of the human species is an infinitesimal fraction compared to the survival of very, very early life forms who reigned for millions of years, or even of certain bacterial forms. We are just beginners. But, we have a higher ratio of impact per person on the environment than most other species. So we have the distinct possibility of not getting much more practice.

Barring that, there's always a sudden meteor impact, or the explosion of Yellowstone, etc.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Trees Found in Mines
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 04:05 PM

>So, the solution to global warming is to put particulates back in the air?<

Particulates with enhanced reflective properties to be preferred. Requiring civilian aircraft to use high sulphur fuels would do the trick (if you don't mind the acid rain.)

Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Trees Found in Mines
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 03:48 PM

Hence the trees in the mines...

Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Trees Found in Mines
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 03:20 PM

Please note that CO2 is NOT the only "greenhouse gas"


Water vapor is more effective than CO2. So, it becomes important NOT to replace the CO2 with additional water vapor- such as fuel cells and hydrogen burning generate.


So, can anyone here show the calculation of how much additional water vapor is put into the atmosphere by all those "environmentally correct" trees that absorb the CO2?


Not quite the simple problem that Gore says it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Trees Found in Mines
From: Lox
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 03:13 PM

Mick,

You are absolutely right.

The Greenhouse Effect is not a problem.

Let alone a man made problem.

It is a description of how carbon dioxide in the atmosphere insulates the earth, allowing for a fairly consistent global temperature regardless of whether its day or night.

On the moon, which doesn't have this insulation, day time is roasting hot while night time is freezing cold.

The Greenhouse effect therefore warms the globe through a process called ... global warming.

We need the greenhouse effect to survive.

The environmental issue we face today is "Enhanced Global warming".

This is caused by the "Enhanced Greenhouse effect"

This is where the "Greenhouse Effect" is "Enhanced" by the massive outpouring of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere by burning fossil fuels.

"enhanced global warming" is not natural.

It is caused by people.

Hence the use of the term "enhanced"

When scientific research results in the develpment of a car, people say "hooray for science".

When Scientific research says "your car is polluting the atmosphere and damaging the planet", people say - "weirdo commie pinko environmentalists.

Science is science - conScience is conscience.

Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Trees Found in Mines
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 03:11 PM

well, bruce..a couple volcanos might indeed give us a temporary, but unpleasant, bit of cooling. Can't say I like the idea...

and SINSULL's main point...that 'we' are not required for the Earth to chug merrily along... is also quite true. It is rather a philosophically oriented point, but pragmatically true. I guess I'm glad I won't be around when someone has to face that directly.

Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Trees Found in Mines
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 02:59 PM

Common Era - AD, to those who need a religious tag.

Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Trees Found in Mines
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 02:54 PM

What's "CE"?

Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Trees Found in Mines
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 02:44 PM

Like we have had the last few decades? When I was on EO-1 ( until 2002) we spent a lot of time looking at the major volcanic eruption plumes ( S.America, Italy) ( as well as the debris plumes from 9/11)

So, the solution to global warming is to put particulates back in the air? Seems like all that anti-pollution stuff is contributing to global warming, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Trees Found in Mines
From: MMario
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 02:40 PM

welll - baring such incidents as major volcanic activity; which also throw up so much dust that they usually cause a net cooling...

Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Trees Found in Mines
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 02:38 PM

Maybe, Mick.

The climactic change around 1000 CE took about 100-150 years to wipe out the Greenland colony, and affect Iceland. Some changes in Europe, but offhand I do not recall how major.

Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Trees Found in Mines
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 02:33 PM

My point is that these same events have taken place before and the earth went on. With or without us it will survive. We are but a blip on the Universe's radar.

Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Trees Found in Mines
From: Alice
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 02:23 PM

You are correct, Mick.

Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Trees Found in Mines
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 02:21 PM

I am a layman, so forgive me if this is a gross misinterpretation of the data, but my understanding of the current situation is that there is no dispute as to a natural process known as the greenhouse effect. What is so alarming is that this occurrence is far more severe and occurred at a supersonic clip as compared to a natural occurrence, due to the increased amount of greenhouse gases from manmade activities. Yes? No?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Trees Found in Mines
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 02:21 PM

Of course there ARE natural cycles, but we are doing enough stuff that there is strong evidence that we are exacerbating changes and interfering with the natural cycles....

Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Trees Found in Mines
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 02:08 PM

The actual periods haven't been determined. From the article:

"The next stage of the research is to try to refine the timings of events all those years ago, and work out the exact environmental conditions that existed. The thresholds that triggered the ancient collapse can then be compared with modern circumstances."

But it does seem fairly certain that the greenhouse effect was not caused by humans.

Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Trees Found in Mines
From: Bee
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 01:34 PM

The difference being found in the term 'in the geological sense'. The Cambrian 'Explosion', for example, wasn't an explosion and occurred over a period of fifty to eighty million years. So how long did it really take for those warming periods to develop?

I really dislike articles like this that fail to establish actual periods of time, thus leading to all sorts of speculative conclusions.

Subject: BS: Ancient Trees Found in Mines
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 01:24 PM

The six forests straddle a period in Earth history 306 million years ago that saw a rapid shift from an icehouse climate with big polar ice caps to a greenhouse climate in which the ice caps would have melted.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7604721.stm

"The fascinating thing we've discovered is that the rainforests dramatically collapse approximately coincident with the greenhouse warming," explained Dr Falcon-Lang.

"Long-lived forests dominated by giant club moss trees almost overnight (in a geological sense) are replaced by rather weedy fern vegetation."

The next stage of the research is to try to refine the timings of events all those years ago, and work out the exact environmental conditions that existed. The thresholds that triggered the ancient collapse can then be compared with modern circumstances.

So global warming is a naturally occurring process?