BS: Timber galore on Kent coast!

Subject: RE: BS: Timber galore on Kent coast!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 11:22 AM

Agreed, the person who abandons can only as such abandon his interest, and if he is a possessor but not the owner he can only as such abandon his possessory title.

However it is commonplace that a master may sell goods on board under an agency of necessity (if the goods are deteriorating), so I think it a little odd that he cannot also abandon them under a necessity. If the shipowner also owned the goods, then the captain's abandonment must surely affect the owner (the master being the shipowner's agent in any event). I can envisage all sorts of anomalies arising...

Subject: RE: BS: Timber galore on Kent coast!
From: Kampervan
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 09:26 AM

Royston
I agree with you about insurance, in general it's a good thing.

But my point was that if they let the public take the stuff away then there wouldn't be the expense of having to clear it up.

The insurance company would then only be paying out for the cost of the timber rather than the timber plus the cleanup costs.

It is also envirnomentally worse to downgrade sawn timber to pulp.

Subject: RE: BS: Timber galore on Kent coast!
From: Royston
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 08:58 AM

To comment on various points raised;

Sugarfoot Jack: Rough-cut timber (which this was) is relatively cheap (by the tonne). Chipped in advance of pulping, it retains much of its value and is easier/cheaper to remove from the beach. This is the legitimate salvage/clearance operation by the owners and insurers in conjunction with the MCA.

Richard: Cargo can be jettisoned by a Master in order to preseve the remainder of the adventure. The jettisoned cargo still belongs to its owner and has not, necessarily, been abandoned by that owner.

Barry: You frighten me. Glad we don't let live in your world. But then again let me know when you're out of the house and I'll come over and possess all your stuff ;-p

Kampervan: That's the point of insurance; everyone pays a little (premium) so that no one person loses their shirt when things go wrong for them. Have you or your family ever made a claim for anything, been to hospital or the doctor, taken an NHS prescription? Should we be "paying for you?"

Subject: RE: BS: Timber galore on Kent coast!
From: Kampervan
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 05:08 AM

But the authorities were letting the public take the wood provided they filled in a form, and at least the timber which people were taking away was going to be put to good use. It was all being carefully stacked and carried away at no cost to anyone.

Once the official clear up started they were using grabs which totally destroyed the wood, making it useless for anything except perhaps pulping. And who pays for it? We do, because the insurance companies will recover their costs through increased premiums.

Subject: RE: BS: Timber galore on Kent coast!
From: Stu
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 05:00 AM

According to eyewitness phoning the Jeremy Vine show yesterday lunchtime the powers that be were on the beach turning the timber into mulch and then spreading it around. The coastguard was there whilst timber was being gathered by beachcombers and were looking relaxed about the whole thing.

Surely it makes sense to let people take and reuse wood that's simply being turned into chippings - after all people will chop down more trees if they don't recycle the timber.

I frequently go fossil collecting on the south coast and after the last timber spillage planks were all over the shore for months after. I didn't take any (as I was more interested in dinosaurs) but if I had, would I have been guilty of theft? No-one was clearing it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Timber galore on Kent coast!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:39 AM

No: Treasure trove is limited to precious items, and if my memory serves me requires that the original item was hidden by the original owner and not retrieved - but check me on that.

And I also disagree with you Barry. Possession is not ownership any more than might is right.

Subject: RE: BS: Timber galore on Kent coast!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 02:37 AM

There's much to be said for the phrase possesion is 9/10's of the law????

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Timber galore on Kent coast!
From: Rowan
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 10:56 PM

marine law is a funny animal

And then there is the notion that maritime concerns laps above the high tide mark, where (I suppose) Treasure Trove might come into play; an even funnier animal.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Timber galore on Kent coast!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:11 PM

Theft requires not only the intention permanently to deprive (UK law) but also "dishonesty". "Dishonesty" is a very murky pool indeed, but with the knowledge that Royston has provided above, any of us who decided that a bit of romantic wrecking or scavenging looked fun would indeed be very likely to be guilty of theft.

I speculate however that if cargo was deliberately jettisoned to save a ship, that mght constitute "abandonment", resulting in a different legal position. The argument has been successful in the case of material in a skip or abandoned on common land - but marine law is a funny animal.

Subject: RE: BS: Timber galore on Kent coast!
From: Alice
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 07:48 PM

This reminds me of the "finders keepers" thread. It amazes me that people don't have enough conscience to know that it is wrong to take something that belongs to someone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Timber galore on Kent coast!
From: Royston
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 06:36 PM

Evenin' all (as the plod on the beach might say!)

The timber belongs to the people who own it, and eventually to their insurers. To remove it from the beach with the intention permanently to deprive the owner of it is theft. Common or garden criminal theft.

A member of the public can recover beached cargo only to keep it safe and to report it to the receiver of wreck, eventually to return it to the rightful owner. Such a person may be rewarded reasonable costs and expenses for their efforts. Not "profit" or a "reward".

Even after floating at sea for a few days, the timber will have a commercial value of about 30% of the original sound value so the owners will be keen to recover it. This is a lot of timber!

I am a maritime insurance expert. I know what I am talking about. Lead surveyor on "Ice Prince" and "MSC Napoli". Google me.

Why do people think it is funny or "OK" to nick stuff that comes up on the beach from an accident. Would you nick property at the scene of a car crash? Or from someone who collapsed or died on the street? If you left your car unattended would you consider it fair game for someone else to take away because you weren't there to stop them?

Subject: RE: BS: Timber galore on Kent coast!
From: InOBU
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:42 AM

Thar do be loights on dem cliffs, you!

Subject: RE: BS: Timber galore on Kent coast!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:30 AM

It could still be pulped for paper, or used to make chipboard. Better that than burning it. It also means thet in theory it still has some commercial value.
Brancombe Pirates Lizzie??? Sorry but that's romantic nonsense, and glamourises criminal activities. The reason the police didn't stop them, is because they had no orders to do so, originally anyway.
It's all in the report published yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: Timber galore on Kent coast!
From: Arnie
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:18 AM

I've just seen the timber on the lunchtime news and a lot of it appears to have beached well over the high tide mark, so quite some way from the sea as it's now low tide. There would be little danger in collecting the stuff that's inshore and although the wood is warped, it could still be used for firewood. I suppose though that the council will build a few huge bonfires on the beach and burn the lot eventually.

Subject: RE: BS: Timber galore on Kent coast!
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 08:31 AM

You do not want to be in the water caught between moving pieces of timber. And you know some numbnuts will.

Subject: RE: BS: Timber galore on Kent coast!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 08:15 AM

I find it very odd that this timber salvage cannot be recycled. Here in the states, in the Pacific Northwest and in the Northeast, we've been actively salvaging logs that have been sunk in salt water for decades, left over from the great log drives.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Timber galore on Kent coast!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 06:28 AM

This discussion fron 2007 might help, particularly the bit which says:
"All items taken from the coastline had to be reported to the Receiver of Wreck before 20 February.

Failure to do so could result in a fine of up to £2,500 and having to pay the owner twice the value of the item.

The Receiver of Wreck, Sophia Exelby, said about 1,400 items had been reported, which she said was a "fair response".

"I am reasonably pleased the majority of people have reported items and have shown themselves to be law abiding," she said."

Subject: RE: BS: Timber galore on Kent coast!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 06:23 AM

Arnie,
Not conflicting views, just not the whole story. Radio Kent say you have to notify the Receiver, this is so the true owner of the wood knows where to find it to reclaim it, or to charge you for it!

Subject: RE: BS: Timber galore on Kent coast!
From: Zen
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 06:13 AM

The timber is owned by the insurance company.

Undoubtedly yes... but it will be ruined now for commercial purposes and almost certainly written off?

Zen

Subject: RE: BS: Timber galore on Kent coast!
From: Arnie
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 06:11 AM

Conflicting views here, as BBC Radio Kent have just reported that it's not illegal to take the timber providing that as soon as you get home you contact the Receiver of Wrecks and tell them what you have done. Isn't stuff washed up on the beaches treated as salvage and belongs to the finder providing always that it is reported?

Subject: RE: BS: Timber galore on Kent coast!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 05:58 AM

As the BBC site says BBC
"Sussex Police has issued a warning to say removing the timber is unlawful, and if people continue to take the wood, they could be liable to prosecution and arrest under the Merchant Shipping Act."

Subject: RE: BS: Timber galore on Kent coast!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 05:48 AM

I'll send The Branscombe Pirates down, they know all about getting things off beaches under the eyes of the law...

Subject: RE: BS: Timber galore on Kent coast!
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 05:48 AM

The timber is owned by the insuramce company.

Subject: BS: Timber galore on Kent coast!
From: Arnie
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 05:28 AM

As I sit at my keyboard this morning, there is a pleasant gale blowing up the English Channel and our local beaches have overnight become woodyards! From Ramsgate to Broadstairs a few hundred tons of timber have been washed up on the beaches. Originally the timber fell off a Russian freighter in a storm a few days ago, and has slowly been floating up the Channel headed for the North Sea. What I don't understand is why the police, coastguard and local council are out in force and preventing the local citizenry of East Kent from helping themselves - a sort of of Whisky Galore only with planks of 4"x2"! Surely this would help to remove the timber off the beaches much more quickly, and at no cost to the taxpayer? As ever, the authorities are playing spoilsport and demanding that no-one touch the wood. Of course they are quoting Health & Safety as the usual catch-all for preventing anyone from getting something for free. If it's left to the council, then there could still be plenty of timber on the beach for Broadstairs folk festival, so don't bother with a tent this year as you will be able to make your very own log cabin! ;-)