BS: It's ok- they're not Moslim...

Subject: RE: BS: It's ok- they're not Moslim...
From: robomatic
Date: 14 May 09 - 09:30 PM

Are you sure it works? Maybe it's been tried and found wanting. . .

Subject: RE: BS: It's ok- they're not Moslim...
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 May 09 - 09:20 PM

a treatment that should be the fate of some of the wiseacre posters here
Now, there's an idea for bringing peace to Mudcat!

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: It's ok- they're not Moslim...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 09 - 08:05 PM

It was pretty obvious that the invasion of Iraq would be disastrous for the long-established Christian minority. That was one reason, among many others, why it was opposed by most people in Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: It's ok- they're not Moslim...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 May 09 - 03:42 PM

What in Jove's name has that to do the subject of this thread?
In the 17th c. the Ottoman Empire was a fount of tolerance.

Young men from the provinces, however, could end up being eunichs (a treatment that should be the fate of some of the wiseacre posters here).

Subject: RE: BS: It's ok- they're not Moslim...
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 May 09 - 03:25 PM

Thank goodness that the 1683 siege of Vienna by the Ottoman army was a failure!

Subject: RE: BS: It's ok- they're not Moslim...
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 09 - 03:05 PM

Indeed

Subject: RE: BS: It's ok- they're not Moslim...
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 May 09 - 02:51 PM

Actually, they are people. As are the Moslems and Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: It's ok- they're not Moslim...
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 09 - 02:21 PM

...but that's ok - they're not Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: It's ok- they're not Moslim...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 May 09 - 02:14 PM

Fr Manuel Musallem, the Catholic priest in Gaza, has retired and is leaving Gaza. (Farewell to Gaza's Courageous Priest, Stuart Littlewood, reporting for aljazeera.com).
"Many of us had feared that ill health had forced him to hang up his cassock last year, but he returned to the fray to be with his community during their darkest hour when Isael's psycopaths, with a nod from America and the EU, unleashed their blitzkrieg intended to finally crush the isolated and half-starved Gazans.
"This is simply the continuation of a hateful religious war by Zionist fanatics to oust Muslims and Christiand from the Holy Land.
................
"I was privileged to meet the crusty old churchman in 2007 when things in Gaza were already unbearable after 18 months of blockade and savage sanctions. For nine years Fr Manuel had been unable to leave the Strip to see his family for fear that the Israelis would block his return and leave his church and school without a priest."
........
"He has frequently spoken up about the torment and hardship inflicted on the Gazan people. ...."Our precious trees have been uprooted. Our buildings have been destroyed. Our streets have been destroyed. Our land has been burnt by bombs and so we cannot produce anything. .........He warned that the people were becoming more agressive. "There is a lot more hate towards the situation they are in- especially among the young."
"Fr Manuel was also greatly troubled by the exodus of Christians to escape the never-ending Israeli oppression and seek a better life elsewhere,..........
"He also speaks with anguish of the 1400 Gazans killed in the latest blitz, the many thousands left homeless, and the hundreds of thousands without running water, sanitation, a proper diet or medical care.
To quote a message he sent: "our people are treated like animals in a zoo." After describing the horrific conditions, he wrote, "Like the early Christians, our people are living through a time of great persecution, a persecution which we must record for future generations as a statement of their faith, hope and love."

Subject: RE: BS: It's ok- they're not Moslim...
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 09 - 01:42 PM

The Palestinian Christians are leaving because of the Occupation.


InsideCatholic.com

Bernard Sabella, a professor at Bethlehem University and a Christian member of the Palestinian legislature, offers another explanation for the exodus. "The main reason is unemployment. If the young people can't find work, they leave, it's that simple."

Sabella's research has found that in good economic years, about 200 to 300 Palestinian Christians between the ages of 25 and 30 leave the West Bank and East Jerusalem. In bad economic times, the numbers shoot up to between 900 and 1,000 a year. With only 50,000 Christians in those areas, the net result is a steadily shrinking community whose recovery is dependent on the return of a robust economy. Sabella adds, "How can you have a strong economy with plenty of jobs for young people out of college when they cannot, for example, even leave the city of Bethlehem but only rarely?"

Without freedom of movement, Sabella argues, the economy cannot grow, more and more Palestinians will depend on foreign aid for subsistence, and young Christians will choose to leave in search of better lives. Sabella's analysis, although beginning with the problem of unemployment, points back to the impact of the Israeli occupations and, particularly, the more stringent measures taken since theintifada that began in 2000.

Subject: RE: BS: It's ok- they're not Moslim...
From: Emma B
Date: 14 May 09 - 01:33 PM

Report from Nazareth -

'Christians here have taken on prominent leadership roles in the Arab sector disproportionate to their numbers. For example, Christians can be found in the leadership of Arab political parties and prominent civil rights groups.

Like their co-religionists in neighboring Lebanon and the West Bank, many Christians are outspoken voices for Arab nationalism. That has been an avenue for social acceptance by their fellow Muslims. It's a way, some observers say, to stress their national ties over religious ones.

Some Israeli Christians, especially among the younger generation, are among Israel's most strident voices for forging a Palestinian identity over an Israeli one.

A significant number of the community's emerging activists are graduates of St. Joseph's School in Nazareth -- a complex of courtyards, buildings and playgrounds in the hills above the city known for its academic excellence.

For the past 30 years it has been led by the Rev. Emil Shoufani, a Catholic priest. Sitting in his office overlooking a basketball court where Muslim and Christian students play together during a break, Shoufani speaks of the dangers of religious identity superseding civic ones in a country like Israel.

"If we keep on this path, the conflict will tilt towards a religious one," Shoufani said. "With fear, everyone retreats to their own ghetto.

"The goal today should be to live shared lives," he adds.

As part of his mission to break people out of their communal shells, Shoufani took a group of Israeli Christians, Muslims and Jews to Auschwitz in 2003.

Shoufani says he is pained when he sees his fellow Christians leaving Israel but understands their motivation.

"Christians look toward a better quality of life; they are looking for quiet and stability," he said. "Because the situation is difficult, people look for other places to live." '


Extract from a recent article from the Jewish Federation of the Berkshires which describes itself as 'a democratic forum for the exchange of ideas - Guided by the principles of gemilut chasadim (acts of loving kindness), tzedakah (justice and righteousness) and tikun olam (repairing the world)

Subject: RE: BS: It's ok- they're not Moslim...
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 May 09 - 01:13 PM

I met a number of Palestinian Christians while I was in Israel. The Christians in Israel are mostly Arab, and they live mostly in the Palestinian territory. They speak a language that is very closely related to Aramaic. They are not tied to either the Jews or Muslims, so they're in a very difficult situation. Most no longer feel safe, and their numbers have dwindled dramatically.

The Wikipedia article on Palestinian Christians is here (click). Arab Christians, including the Palestinian Christians, are an interesting group of people. They claim roots that go back to the early days of the Christian Church, before Islam was founded. In Palestine/Israel, the best-known Arab Christian communities are in Nazareth and Bethlehem.

"Driven out" may be too dramatic a term. Arab Christians are leaving their home lands on their own accord, because they no longer feel safe. Many have been killed or mistreated because of their faith, and because they are no longer trusted by their Muslim neighbors.

This article from the Jerusalem Post seems more than a little slanted, but it does give interesting information.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: It's ok- they're not Moslim...
From: Emma B
Date: 14 May 09 - 12:44 PM

'Although Iraq has a democratic government, Iraqi Christians were safer and had more protection under former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein', said French Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran**, appointed President of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, in 2007.

'Power is in the hands of the strongest -- the Shiites -- and the country is sinking into a sectarian civil war (between Sunni and Shiite Muslims) in which not even Christians are spared,' he said and Christians, 'paradoxically, were more protected under the dictatorship'

**Cardinal Tauran is a longtime veteran of the Vatican's diplomatic service and a specialist in international affairs.
He was Pope John Paul II's "foreign minister," the official who dealt with all aspects of the Vatican's foreign policy from 1990 to 2003.

From the Catholic News Service

Subject: RE: BS: It's ok- they're not Moslim...
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 09 - 11:59 AM

Christians have been driven out of Muslim-controlled countries because of the creation of the state of Israel? Please explain the connection there.

Subject: RE: BS: It's ok- they're not Moslim...
From: pdq
Date: 14 May 09 - 11:57 AM

Christians and Jews are being driven out of all Moslem-controlled countries.

This has been systematic since Israel was reborn as a Jewish state in 1948.

This could be called "ethnic cleansing" if one wanted to use such a loaded term.

Subject: RE: BS: It's ok- they're not Moslim...
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 09 - 11:52 AM

I also find it highly ironic that someone who still vigorously supports the US invasion and occupation of Iraq, is now complaining about the problems that we have cause there, as if it's all the fault of those dirty Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: It's ok- they're not Moslim...
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 09 - 11:48 AM

More fallout from Bush and Cheney's illegitmate and illegal war against, and occupation of Iraq. Iraq's Christians were apparently even better off under Saddam than they are under the US "liberation" of Iraq.

The US war in Iraq has done exactly the opposite of what we were told it was supposed to do. Instead of making the people of Iraq more free, what we have done is introduced religious violence and extremism in a country where it had not previously been a problem. Thank Mssrs. Bush and Cheney for this one.

Subject: BS: It's ok- they're not Palestinians
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 09 - 07:28 AM

In Iraq, an exodus of Christians
      

Paul Schemm, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 36 mins ago

BAGHDAD – Iraq has lost more than half the Christians who once called it home, mostly since the war began, and few who fled have plans to return, The Associated Press has learned.

Pope Benedict XVI called attention to their plight during a Mideast visit this week, urging the international community to ensure the survival of "the ancient Christian community of that noble land."

The number of Arab Christians has plummeted across the Mideast in recent years as increasing numbers seek to move to the West, saying they feel increasingly unwelcome in the Middle East and want a better life abroad.

But the exodus has been particularly stark in Iraq — where sectarian violence since the U.S.-led 2003 invasion has often targeted Christians.

The AP found that hundreds of thousands of Christians have fled.

The situation holds practical implications for Iraq's future. Christians historically made up a large portion of the country's middle class, including key jobs as doctors, engineers, intellectuals and civil servants.

The last official Iraqi census in 1987 found 1.4 million Christians in the country. Now, according to the 2008 U.S. State Department report on International Religious Freedom, that number has dropped to between 550,000 and 800,000.

Some estimate the number is even lower: only 400,000, according to the German Catholic relief organization Kirche in Not. The number is echoed privately by many Iraqi Christians.

The vast majority of the exodus has happened since the 2003 invasion, the State Department and other statistics suggest. The State Department says as many as 1.2 million Christians remained into 2003.

Christians first began leaving Iraq after the 1991 Gulf War, during the economic sanctions and repression under Saddam Hussein, who pushed more Islamist policies. But the trickle turned to a flood after Saddam was toppled in 2003 and the violence escalated, said a prominent Iraqi Christian lawmaker, Younadem Kana.

"I hope to leave for any other place in the world," said Sheeran Surkon, a 27-year-old Iraqi woman who fled to Syria in 2004 after she received death threats, her father disappeared and her beauty salon was blown up. She now awaits resettlement to another country, saying she can't tolerate the violence and new Muslim conservatism in Iraq.

"How can I live there as a woman?" she asked.

Daoud Daoud, 70, a former civil servant in the northern city of Mosul, now spends his time waiting with dozens of others at a Damascus resettlement center, hoping to follow his children to Sweden.

"Iraq as we once knew it is over. For us there is no future there," he said.

More than 2 million refugees of all religions have fled Iraq since the 2003 invasion. The recent ebb in violence has lured some Muslim refugees to return in small numbers.

But few Christians contemplate going back, according to the U.N. High Commissioner on Refugees.

"They simply do not feel safe enough. They cannot sufficiently count on state security or any other force to protect them," said the UNHCR's acting representative in Damascus, Philippe Leclerc.

In a report last year, the head of the UNHCR Iraq support unit noted that Christians are more likely than other fleeing Iraqis to register as refugees in an effort to emigrate to a third country.

"The vast majority of Iraqis still want to return to Iraq when the conditions permit — the notable exception being religious minorities, particularly Christians," the report said.

Signs of the exodus are stark inside the cavernous St. Joseph's church in the middle-class Baghdad neighborhood of Karradah. On a recent day, just 100 Christians, mostly women and children, celebrated Mass in an echoing space that could easily hold 1,000.

Incense filled the air as the parishioners sang hymns in Arabic and ancient Syriac — similar to the Aramaic once spoken by Jesus.

"When I came here to my parish in Karrada, we had 2,000 families," said Monsignor Luis al-Shabi, 70, who started at St. Joseph's 40 years ago. "But now we only have 1,000 — half."

The situation is worse in the Baghdad neighborhood of Dora to the south — where 30,000 prewar Christians fled during the six years of war. The now-quiet neighborhood has only a single church and a handful of Christians.

More troubling, when a group of Christian families recently tried to return to homes in Dora, two Christian women were killed, Iraq's Cardinal Emmanuel III Delly said in an interview after meeting with the pope in nearby Jordan.

Some Christians cite the violence as their reason to flee. Iraqis of all religions and ethnicities have been killed, but Christians had the misfortune to live in some of the worst battlefields, including Dora and the northern city of Mosul, both al-Qaida strongholds.

Execution-style killings late last year targeted Christians in Mosul, as did a string of bombings. In March of last year, the body of Mosul's Chaldean Archbishop was found in a shallow grave a month after he was kidnapped at gunpoint as he left a Mass.

For now, attacks against Christians in Mosul seem to have ebbed. But one priest, who refused to give his name out of fear, told the AP that "despite the current calm in the city, Christians are still afraid of persecution."

Scattered violence continues. On Sunday in a village outside Mosul, the body of a 5-year-old Christian child kidnapped a week earlier was found by police, partially chewed by dogs.

The loss of the small power the community had under Saddam has also played a role in the Christian exodus.

Barred from the army, security services or high-level political positions under Saddam, Christians in Iraq often became doctors, engineers, land owners, and above all civil servants, filling the ministries as technocrats who kept the country running.

But ministries are now controlled by powerful figures in the Sunni and Shiite Muslim communities who prefer to distribute jobs to family and close associates, according to several recent Iraqi government anti-corruption probes.

"It's not a policy of the government of discrimination, but of monopolizing and abusing power for their own pocket and for their own sect," said Christian lawmaker Kana.

Kana and others also say many Christians leave because they think the U.N. refugee agency will fast-track them for resettlement — something the U.N. denies.

"Those most vulnerable are the priority, and among them are Iraq's Christians ... but being a Christian does not mean they will be fast-tracked," said Leclerc, the U.N. official. He added, however, that countries like Germany have said they would like to take more Christians for resettlement because they are particularly targeted.

Kana is highly critical of that policy.

"Maybe they are trying to save some people, but they are destroying the community here — a historic and native people of this country," he said.

Such arguments make little difference to refugees like George Khoshaba Zorbal, a member of a prominent Christian family in Baghdad who once edited the church's magazine. He now lives on handouts in a crowded Damascus apartment with eight other family members.

"I will never go back. I'm afraid the situation there would not improve even after 10 years," he said.