BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 08:15 PM

There's an element of speculation either way Doug. It seems to me more likely that the buck for what happened in Abu Ghraib should have ended up a great deal higher up the system than with a bunch of "individual members of the armed forces who were bad guys and girls," right down at the bottom.

But it's not "hopeful" speculation. I'd much sooner believe the few bad apple theory - it just doesn't seem credible to me in this case.
The same way I'd like to believe that this young soldier will have been treated humanely by his captors.

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: DougR
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 04:31 PM

Well,heric, if you are implying that the Commander in Chief should have been looking over the shoulders of those bad guys and girls, I think you will find that even your hero, Obama, can't be in two places at once.

It seems to me we have veered a bit off course in the thread. I don't believe Abu Garub figured into the discussion I attempted to start. I assume that is what some folks refer to as "thread drift."

As of this time and this date, nothing has been heard of the subject of the thread. The young soldier is still missing.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: heric
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 02:49 PM

"individual members of the armed forces who were bad guys and girls." " illegal activity on the part of poorly trained and badly supervised soldiers."

Pathetic excuses, offering no solace for something that brought shame upon all of us. Did we have a Commander in Chief or did we not?

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: DougR
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 12:58 PM

Art is right.

McGrath and Paul Burk's posts are pure (hopeful) speculation.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Jul 09 - 07:03 PM

Wrong. The illegal and immoral mishandling of prisoners who were believed, correctly or not, to have information vital to ongoing military operations or security was part of the Bush regime's policy. Mistreatment of "ordinary" prisoners in Abu Graib was the result of illegal activity on the part of poorly trained and badly supervised soldiers. Blaming it on the Bushites doesn't make it true.

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jul 09 - 06:59 PM

I'm afraid I'm a bit sceptical about the claim that the treatment of prisoners in Abu Ghraib was just a matter of "individual members of the armed forces who were bad guys and girls."

It seems more likely that they were doing what they believed they were expected to do, with some reason, including the high-up authorisation by the USA of "enhanced interrogation" methods which are recognised as torture by most authorities.

I have no doubt that if it ever comes to war crimes trials of Taliban commanders, they will claim that any episodes of maltreatment of prisoners was down to their own "individual bad guys".

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Jul 09 - 06:41 PM

Wrong. The treatment of prisoners was an integral part of American policy under Bush.

Face it: your sequence is

Deny it happened
Blame it on the pony express
Say they deserved it anyway

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: DougR
Date: 04 Jul 09 - 06:29 PM

Abu Garab, I think is not a good example, Kevin. The atrocities committed there were not condoned by the U.S. government (I suspect that you are aware of that too my friend). They were committed by individual members of the armed forces who were bad guys and girls.

I don't believe there has been an official announcement about how the soldier was captured (or kidnapped)by the Terrorists. I heard that he just wandered off base too.

Bobert:

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jul 09 - 04:35 PM

They mistreat their prisoners not to extract information, but for the satisfaction of seeing their enemies suffer.

A bit like what happened in Abu Ghraib then...

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jul 09 - 12:25 PM

That's what I heard, as well, Arnie... I donno...

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: Arnie
Date: 04 Jul 09 - 07:02 AM

How did the Taleban capture this soldier in the first place? I heard a report that he simply wandered off the base - could this be true?

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 09 - 03:59 AM

As a cause for concern, this capture was sure to result in a discussion here.
Also, it was bound to raise the issue of how we treat prisoners compared to how they would treat us if the tables were turned, so why attack the messenger?

They regard our concern not to cause suffering as a weakness to be exploited. They all claim to have been mistreated.
Wolfgang recently reminded us that earlier terrorists later admitted lying about that to gain sympathy and support.

They mistreat their prisoners not to extract information, but for the satisfaction of seeing their enemies suffer.
Even the evil of EI is far above the wickedness of these people.

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 07:42 PM

Dougie, Dougie, Dougie...

I never thought that I'd have to warn you not to start political threads here in Mudville... No, I thought (silly me) that you had more sense...

Like I said, "Silly me"...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: jeddy
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 07:16 PM

i would rather that no country had any part of the nazi regime in practice.

EI has flip sides to both reguements, but as i asked earlier how do you make someone tell you something when they are willing to go as far as suicide to prove themselves right, if you do get a response from said questioning how do you check it is the truth?

i don't think anyone here is uncaring towards this soldier and his family and i think that to suggest so shows complete contemp for the people here. if i thought this were the case i would PM joe and ask for this thread to be removed.

take care all

jade x x

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 06:08 PM

'The euphemism actually originated in Nazi Germany (no kidding) as "Verschärfte Vernehmung" which translates into English as "enhanced interrogation."'

You want your country associated with this?

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 05:43 PM

Try 2005.

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 05:42 PM

Doug, EI isn't torture? It's recently been announced that a guy died from it. That irrefutable enough for you?

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: DougR
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 05:40 PM

Peace: would you please use your considerable influence with our current president and urge him to release the two memos Cheney referred to? I really would appreciate it.

I'm sure General Petraeus is correct. However, I am not talking about torture. Show me irrefutable evidence that the enhanced interrogation used on a few captured terrorists is torture. You can't do it. All the rest is OPINION!

Jeri: You are a nice person and I like you, but I don't think your post of 03 Jul 09 at 05:19 PM is worthy of a reply.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 05:19 PM

" Gen. Petraeus: Torture yields information 'of questionable value.'
"Some may argue that we would be more effective if we sanctioned torture or other expedient methods to obtain information from the enemy. That would be wrong. Beyond the basic fact that such actions are illegal, history shows that they also are frequently neither useful nor necessary. Certainly, extreme physical action can make someone 'talk;' however, what the individual says may be of questionable value." [Gen. David Petraeus, Letter to Multi-National Force-Iraq, 5/10/07]"

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 05:18 PM

What I find sadly typical of your viewpoint Doug, is that you start a thread pretending to care about a kidnapped soldier then drop the false concern so you can use the man's situation as a soapbox to advocate for torture.

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: DougR
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 05:08 PM

Alice: I started this thread to prove a point. No one wishes more than me that the soldier, either captured as, Bobert puts it, or kidnapped as the press has reported it, gets back safely and, hopefully, without having endured torture of any kind. I certainly pray he returns with his head securely attached to his body.

Arguments that enhanced interrogation is ineffective were countered recently by former VP Dick Cheney. As I am sure you all know, he stated recently that memorandums exist that prove that valuable information was gained from terrorists who experienced enhanced interrogation AND lives were saved as a result. I suppose we will never know if the former VP was speaking truthfully because our current President/Commander in Chief refuses to release said memos. Am I the only one who wonders why Obama refuses to do so? He has the power to release them, but doesn't. Could it be that the memos, in fact, support the former VP's statement? If they do not, Cheney was certainly taking quite a gamble. I believe Obama does not release the memos because he KNOWS they support Cheney's statement.

Critics of enhanced interrogation complain that if the US uses those techniques, our military personnel, if captured, would be treated to the same type interrogation.

I believe the terrorists don't give a damn what we do to their fellow terrorists if captured. If they did, why would they send them off with bombs strapped to their bodies? Have you heard of one instance when our military or even members of the press, if captured by terrorists, were NOT tortured?

I'm sorry if you, Alice, and many others feel this is an inappropriate posting. If Joe agrees with you, he certainly can eliminate it. I think it is timely, and that the subject matter is arguable.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: heric
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 04:48 PM

Just facts, Ebbie. Nothing to do with propoganda or hate. Turning a blind eye to horrible facts doesn't seem wise.

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: Alice
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 02:20 PM

This soldier is a real person with real family and friends who love him, and to use him as a symbol to defend torture and bash Obama is absolutely sickening. This thread is a lapse in judgment I didn't expect from Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 01:53 PM

Ah ha! Two Minutes of Hate at work. :)

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 01:01 PM

"War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength."

And enhanced interrogation is not torture.

..........

But I'd disagree with michaelr's implication that Doug shouldn't frequent the Mudcat. The line to draw shouldn't be disagreement, but being disagreeable. And Doug is rarely if ever disagreeable.

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: heric
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 12:46 PM

But back to the thread title. I agree with DougR that the Taliban and al Queda didn't learn videotaped decapitations, mutilation, dismemberment and corpse desecration from us, but I was a bit surprised to open the thread and see a deliberate trolling event arising from this incident. That strikes me as extremely disrespectful.

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: heric
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 12:40 PM

"In the same memos, the Justice Department did note that forced sleep deprivation, when used in conjunction with other techniques, had been called torture in the past, both by the U.S. Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals (in a lawsuit about human-rights violations in the Philippines) and the U.N., on multiple occasions. Nonetheless, the Justice Department memos concluded that the use of prolonged [week long] sleep deprivation "cannot be expected to cause 'severe mental pain or suffering,' " as defined by U.S. criminal law."

(The Justice Department memo writers concluded, somehow, that the maximum allowable period of sleep deprivation would be 264 hours, though no detainee was deprived of sleep for more than 180 hours, or 7½ days.)

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: Alice
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 12:37 PM

Another example of Newspeak - under Bush, "hunger" in a America was changed to "food insecurity". Click

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 12:34 PM

Indeed, not kidnapping. Capture, yes.   He's a POW, not a victim of a crime. (OK,to some *war* is a crime, and to others, our *being* there is a crime... but not a felony/misdemeanor kind of crime.)

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: heric
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 12:30 PM

Enhanced interrogation includes actual drowning and resuscitation.

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 12:24 PM

Anyone old enough to remember 'Newspeak' should be informed enough to look twice or more times at what comes out of governmentese.

Do you get rid of all your hostility in 'Two Minutes of Hate', Doug?

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 11:39 AM

"Enhanced interrogation" is not torture.

"Enemy combatants" are not prisoners of war.

Anyone else have any good examples of reinvention of the English language to avoid following law and human decency? I expect there are some left over from the Raj.

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 11:18 AM

"Enhanced interrogation is NOT torture."

So what does "enhanced" mean if not torture?

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: GUEST,Briggfoot
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 11:02 AM

The Taliban stated several years ago that they were looking to capture a British soldier, to skin them alive and beam the footage across the world, in a similar fashion to what they did to a lot of Russian soldiers in the 80's.

Will they treat a US soldier any different? I don't know, I pray so.....
My thoughts are with his him and his family, he is probably not having an easy ride at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 09:14 AM

Bobert, these people are known for the cruel execution of their prisoners.

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 08:18 AM

I see your one US soldier kidnapped and raise you....

This mornings Financial Times of London.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

one dead CO of the 1st Bttn Welsh Guard...

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 08:01 AM

First of all, I find the word kidnapped a curious term in an area where a "hot war" is being waged... There is another term that better describes what happened to this guy and that is he was captured and is now a "prisoner of war"... I mean, let's get real here??? We don't hear about the US kidnapping Taliban, do we... No, it's capturing, folksm, and it's part of war...

Now as to whether or not this soldier is being tortured, I think that is anyone's guess... I mean, why would we assume that the Taliban would think he had information??? Most folks in the war really don't have much information... The field commanders come up with the schemes and grunts go out and do the dirty work... So most soldiers are purdy much clueless about the overall plans... That is one of the arguments that have been made against the US torturing folks... There is a mispercdeption that everyone who is captured knows everything when, in fact, most are purdy much clueless...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: Stu
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 06:29 AM

"Enhanced interrogation is NOT torture."

So you'd happily subject yourself and your closest relatives to enhanced interrogation then?

After all, if it doesn't harm them you would of course be ready to put your money where your mouth is or that would make you a raging hypocrite.

Let's hope the guy comes back safely.

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 04:41 AM

Michaelr, I can honestly say DougR and I are poles apart regarding politics, but from time to time he is a contributor to the music Thread, so Doug listen to some oldies like"Keep the home fires burning" and pray for the day that the US sees sense and hotfoots it out of an unwinnable war.

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: PoppaGator
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 04:11 AM

I hate to burst anybody's bubble, but there is a lot of very justifiable doubt that torture ~ OR "enhanced interrogation" (torture lite?) ~ produces anything except satisfaction for some people's frustration and/or bloodlust.

Whatever "intelligence" comes out of the exercise is not especially likely to be objectively true. It might be true, it might not, but it is almost certain to verify/justify the interrogators' preconceived notions, even when those preconceptions are completely unfounded.

As long as the subject remains strong, brave, and true to his compatriots, he won't say anything. When he's broken/weakened/"persuaded," he'll say anything ~ generally, whatever he thinks his "handlers" want to hear.

Ask John McCain about this.

That said, I'm sure that we all hope and pray that the young soldier is successfully rescued.

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 03:47 AM

Ebbie - unsustainable, but, from the usual suspects, all too sadly believable.

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: DougR
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 01:30 AM

You, michaelr! I think you are cute.

Seriously, though, I like this forum, and as you probably know I am a long time member, because it is one of the few places where one can express one's opinion, which may be in opposition to the majority of members, but still know that democracy exits. I have found that there is always great tolerance for other opinions on this forum.

I rarely see many comments in the BS portion of the Mudcat that relates to music, unless a notable musician dies, which makes another obit thread possible. You may not be aware of this, Michaelr, but I think that's why the music threads are separated from the BS ones.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: michaelr
Date: 02 Jul 09 - 10:48 PM

Doug, why are you here? Your views are diametrically opposed to those of most Mudcat members (those who make them known, anyway), and you don't have much to say about music. What is it that attracts you to this forum?

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jul 09 - 10:22 PM

"Enhanced interrogation is NOT torture."

Unbelievable.

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: DougR
Date: 02 Jul 09 - 09:13 PM

I would be shocked to learn that they did not, McGrath. I do not believe the terrorists are influenced one whit by how we treat our terrorist captives.

I am not suggesting that torture be used on anyone. Enhanced interrogation is NOT torture.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jul 09 - 06:53 PM

DougR, don't you realize that having tortured in the recent past makes it far more likely that the GI's capturers may feel justified in doing the same? Put into the equation that a number of "terrorists" have died at US hands in the process.

It is difficult to moralize about an antagonists' getting dirty when one is standing in the same muck.

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jul 09 - 05:34 PM

Do you think they would be right to do so Doug?

After all, if Obama is wrong to abandon torture, which your comment seems to indicate is the case, that would seem to imply that it would be wrong for the Taliban to do the same.

Subject: RE: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: jeddy
Date: 02 Jul 09 - 05:32 PM

i feel extremely sorry for his family and friends and hope with all my heart that he is returned to them, without the box!!

i do think we need to retain standards in the questioning of suspectsandmake sure we get the truth rather than anything that will get the pain to stop, but if they are not put under pressure they will never crack.
how do you get someone to confess plans or plots when they are more than willing to die for their cause?

i confess to not having a clue.

take care all

jade x x

Subject: BS: US soldier kidnapped in Afghanstan
From: DougR
Date: 02 Jul 09 - 05:23 PM

I assume there is nothing to be alarmed about however. Since Obama and his jolly gang of Democrats have succeeded in banning enhanced questioning of Al Queda captives, I'm confident that the young man will not be mistreated by the terrorists. They may separate his head from his body, but surely they would not subject him to enhanced interrogation. Will they?

DougR