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BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 23 Jul 09 - 04:45 PM I see they named the river after you.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Peace Date: 23 Jul 09 - 12:58 AM It is here, too. I'm in Alberta, Canada. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 22 Jul 09 - 09:19 PM I'm from the north of England, Peace - it's considered an art form around here. It can confuse outsiders, but that's generally considered a good thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Peace Date: 22 Jul 09 - 09:07 PM What yer sayin' is were a couple of miserable old farts, right? (Well, this half of we is, anyway.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 22 Jul 09 - 07:50 PM I grumble, therefore I am :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Peace Date: 22 Jul 09 - 07:31 PM I'm with Smokey on that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 22 Jul 09 - 07:28 PM Smokey, it is being mischaracterized by those who claim that there is a fundamentalist atheism as if it were religious in itself. That is grossly incorrect. It's an attempt by some religious people to discredit an atheist view. (etc.) I see what you mean now, thanks for your patience. There are atheists who make such a song and dance about it that they may as well be religious though, and I find them intensely irritating. I suspect, that like the religious ranters the attitude comes from insecurity about their beliefs - hence my earlier comment about testing their faith, albeit slightly tongue-in-cheek. I happen to think it is impossible to discredit an atheist view, but sadly it doesn't stop some of 'em trying. I'm inclined to agree with LH, in that they should all just fuck off and leave us in peace. What individuals believe is irrelevant, it's what they DO that counts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jul 09 - 05:59 PM I've met a few fundamentalist atheists in my time, strinsinger. They're just as intolerant and bullheaded and unpleasant to be around as the fundamentalist religious people. You can hardly tell the one from the other if you go strictly by their attitude...but they work from diametrically opposite scripts! ;-) It would be nice if they would all agree to go live on some isolated island. They could fight about stuff there, and leave the rest of humanity in relative peace. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 22 Jul 09 - 03:13 PM Well, labels are malleable, but I think there is a spectrum of attitudes, with numerous quirks and twists and kinks in it, ranging from absolute materialism to various degrees of spirituality, various mixes of perception, doctrine, and dogma. In my view there is little distance between dogmatic theists and hard-over dogmatic materialists with no tolerance for spiritual experience. I put them both at the same end of the specturm, the end where the idees fixees and the rigid dogmatism are found. Saying "there is no infinite spiritual plane to be found behind material existence" is different from saying "there is no unary anthropomorphic male at the top of a rigid hierarchy of cherubim"--yet both views could be called atheistic. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Stringsinger Date: 22 Jul 09 - 01:59 PM Smokey, it is being mischaracterized by those who claim that there is a fundamentalist atheism as if it were religious in itself. That is grossly incorrect. It's an attempt by some religious people to discredit an atheist view. Thom Hartmann and Christopher Hitchens had a debate about this on one of the blogs, recently. There was no resolution of the discussion and a complete disagreement about it. Thom says there is a fundamentalist atheism and Chris said no. I agree with Chris. Some people who are religious are analogous to smokers who can't understand those who reject tobacco smoke. They do it and see no reason not to so why shouldn't others? I think there needs to be far more tolerance on the part of many religious people toward accepting that there is an atheist position and allow for disagreement without rancor and defensiveness. I only present my views on the appropriate forum such as this thread. I don't post them to any other thread on another topic. An exception would be if I were challenged about my position. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 22 Jul 09 - 01:08 AM Only joshing, old bean.. Besides, why change perfection ;-? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: M.Ted Date: 22 Jul 09 - 12:57 AM Don't change your self for me, Smoke, you won't be happy. Pedantry has lost it's sparkle, and, at least in the circles that count, is regarded as boring, and bigotry has been overdone-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 22 Jul 09 - 12:56 AM Amos, eef I zing, zee vorld cries.. I schtick to zee moosick, eet ees murch saifaire. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 22 Jul 09 - 12:12 AM Zing, undt der vorld zings mit you; cry, undt you cry alone. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 21 Jul 09 - 11:29 PM Uh, vott iss ziss 'zing'? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 21 Jul 09 - 11:26 PM Thanks Amos. I don't quite know how I'm going to manage socially without derision and mockery, but luckily I went to an English grammar school, so I've always got pedantry and bigotry to fall back on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 21 Jul 09 - 10:01 PM Dave Barry is a widely-read American humorist with a zing. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 21 Jul 09 - 09:21 PM Oh dear, does that mean we have to give up deriding and mocking in order to be 'nice'? Where would 'faith' be without something to test itself against? Dave Barry (who he?) is obviously right, but I don't think you're comparing like with like. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: M.Ted Date: 21 Jul 09 - 08:40 PM I don't really have a problem with any ideas that anyone might have about any sort of deity, pro or con, because I think that God can take care of himself. I have a great deal of respect for people who try to make something worthwhile out of their lives, whether it is in the imitation of Christ, or some other path of self-realization. And as to the people who deride and mock them, I think of Dave Barry, who said, "A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 21 Jul 09 - 07:47 PM Stringsinger, I'm inclined to agree with your views, but how is it possible to mischaracterize atheism? For me it's a very straightforward, effortless thing that doesn't require or offer any defence or explanation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 21 Jul 09 - 07:06 PM Pah! Eet ees a battle of ze wits wiz an unarmed opponent!! Zere is no honor in eet!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jul 09 - 06:30 PM Absolutement! I cannot resist zee tasty challenge of zee personal combat weez Amos. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 21 Jul 09 - 06:05 PM Me, 'owever, 'e goes haftair personallement, which gives me greate zense of importance in the cartoon world. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jul 09 - 05:13 PM That's all fine with me, strinsinger. I'm just talking about the subject in a general sense, not going after you personally. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Stringsinger Date: 21 Jul 09 - 03:52 PM LH I do not reject people who have different ideas than me nor do I pester anyone. I will speak out though when someone says something about religion with which I don't agree. I do not think that my position on opposing religion makes me any better than anyone else. I will not be pestered into having to accept any ideas of "spirituality", "transcendence" or any of the airy ideas of supernatural language. I will disagree when they are brought up as a criticism of atheism. I feel the need to defend atheism or agnosticism (which really is a form of atheism) when it is mischaracterized particularly on a thread of this nature. Of course, I am open to discussion on this issue as long as it doesn't get contentious or personal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jul 09 - 03:04 PM Au contraire, mon frer! Even now I am attempting to process and set up 2 large orders from customers stateside, one in Indiana and one in Minnesota. Then I have to go out to Brafasco at the local industrial mall and see if I can quickly source some large washers with 5/8" holes. I am busy, man, busy, busy. No time for fripperies with the likes of vous. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 21 Jul 09 - 02:57 PM Leedle Hack: Schtop pretendtink!! You know perfeckly vell you don't verk. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 21 Jul 09 - 02:54 PM Well strap me to a tree and call me Brenda - what are you chaps smoking out there? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jul 09 - 02:45 PM Where ARE you right now, Amos? Are you at work? If so, get to it, man! Show a little responsibilty. I am at work and I have other stuff I really need to do here... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 21 Jul 09 - 02:32 PM Ach, Leedle Hack, now you haff REALLY backschlided!! Dot parrot technique is morally lower dan Beardet Bwoosch mimicking his bettersch, und is really below your schtandardsch. You muscht call at once for a new scheries of appointments. Ve haff schome SCHERIOUS recoffery verk to schtart on. Liebenscheiss |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jul 09 - 02:29 PM Amos's profound admiration for Chinga's highly questionable posturing and lifestyle, and his profound awareness of Chinga's moral shortfalls, are wrapped up in a bubble of benevolence which stems from the fact that Amos sees Chinga as a projection of the unattainable virgin/whore figure that he always secretly wanted but never had. Chongo does not see Chinga in this light, and is thus less forgiving of Chinga's failings and of Amos's patronage of her crass attempts to slander a hardworking and responsible chimp. A frank opinion from Chongo is a good antidote to Amos's waxen enthusiasm for Chinga. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 21 Jul 09 - 02:20 PM Little Hawk's profound admiration for Chongo's inner self and his virtues, and his profound awareness of Chongo's moral shortfalls, are wrapped up in a bubble of benevolence which stems from the fact that Little Hawk sees Chongo as his own projection. Chongo's sister, Chinga, does not see Chongo in this light, and is thus less forgiving of Chongo's failings and Little Hawk's in designing him. A frank opinion from Chinga is a good antidote to LH's waxen enthusiasm. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jul 09 - 02:15 PM Yes, indeed. ;-) I do exactly the same thing. To be able to laugh at one's own little hypocrisies and arrogant tendencies when one catches them in the act is the first good step to understanding and getting along with other people, in spite of whatever shortcomings they may seem to have. As you say, "one needs to be in touch with one's inner 'twat'". I enjoy playing out stories with various fictional characters like Chongo Chimp in order to demonstrate the amusing and often very predictable behaviour of people who have some good qualities (and Chongo does)...but who also have some major blind spots in certain areas too which can cause them to be quite unreasonable at times. You can't just sum up these characters as "good" or "bad", because they are a confusing mixture of both. Chongo is loyal, courageous, determined, hard-working, and very independent. This is good. He's extremely outspoken. That can be good...or it can be bad...depending on what's going on. He detests prejudice against apes and monkeys...yet he is himself extremely prejudiced against most apes and monkeys because he thinks chimps are way better than all the others! He's very upset by human prejudice against apes and monkeys, but he's equally prejudiced against humans. Most of the time Chongo is relatively unaware of his "inner twat", but now and then he experiences a moment of real clarity, and realizes that he has been behaving like a total jerk. He is then quite capable of admitting to his own foolishness and is genuinely apologetic about it. He tries to make amends. This makes Chongo quite likeable in my opinion. He may be a rough diamond, but there is some real value there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 20 Jul 09 - 11:15 PM If one becomes aware of that tendency (assuming superiority over those of different belief) in oneself, though, then one is at least on the way toward doing it less, and that's a good start. I'm apt to laugh at myself.. One way or another we can all be twats now and again. (and again) One needs to be in touch with one's 'inner twat', I think. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Jul 09 - 10:52 PM "The onset of intolerance is when we assume superiority over those of different beliefs to our own, and that applies to all of us." Dead right, Smokey! We virtually all do that to some extent, we assume our superiority over those with different ideas or beliefs, and to that extent we are intolerant. I think I've met one or two people in my life who don't do that at all, but I sure don't include myself among them. If one becomes aware of that tendency (assuming superiority over those of different belief) in oneself, though, then one is at least on the way toward doing it less, and that's a good start. I seem to share an old cultural feature of the Indians in the early days of the arrival of the Whites in North America: I really enjoy hearing about other people's religious ideas. I find it fascinating. I don't like it if they aggressively try to convert me (and neither did the Indians like that), but I am delighted to hear them simply explain their beliefs and their traditions. I'm also pleased to see and share in some of their ceremonies, as a guest. I want to hear about a variety of religious traditions and ideas. I find it interesting in its own right, and it helps me know a lot more about other cultures and why they think the way they do and where their ideas came from. It enlarges my view of humanity, and that can only be good. Being of no religion myself, I am free to be friends with any of them...provided they're willing to be friendly to me...and I find that most people are quite willing to be friendly if you treat them respectfully. This is real 3D life I'm talking about, of course. It tends to be a lot nicer and more polite than the Internet....where people feel free to say any damn thing that pops into their mind, because they're artificially separated from the people they're saying it too, and they figure they're risking nothing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 20 Jul 09 - 09:37 PM Yes, I'm rather intolerant in that respect too, though I think the biggest sin is being boring. (was that Oscar Wilde?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Peace Date: 20 Jul 09 - 07:51 PM I really don't give a darn who's what religion--as long as the individual doesn't TELL me about it. That pisses me off. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 20 Jul 09 - 07:28 PM Especially those of us who understand that principle. We're REALLY the superior ones... :>) Jes' funning. Every viewpoint has a web of firm, even transparent beliefs which inform their core range of awareness. The hardest trick in the world, though, is to recognize from one's set of experiences what beliefs one must be holding, and then to change them. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 20 Jul 09 - 07:25 PM The onset of intolerance is when we assume superiority over those of different beliefs to our own, and that applies to all of us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Jul 09 - 05:41 PM Mrzzy: "The trick is, LH, the only people doing bad things in the name of their undemonstrable belief are the religious, not the nonreligious. And as we've said before, just because the church has done good doesn't mean the church is required to do good. However, who was the philosopher, for good men to do evil requires religion." Not so, Mrzzy. Good men have also been doing evil in the service of political causes and financial objectives since the dawn of human civilization. They obey the orders they get from their commanders and officers and bosses. They very often have no idea that they are doing evil...but they still do it. It is no exclusive preserve of the religious. Political causes are also often founded upon completely undemonstrable beliefs that are simply matters of political philosophy. There are a great many historical examples of that. You see, people do not just have faith in unseen "gods"...they also have faith in unseen ideas and those ideas can stem from the non-religious power structures just as readily as they do from the religious ones. For good men to do evil only requires that they either don't fully understand what they're doing...or they're not strong enough or well-informed enough to hold up under the overwhelming pressure of command structure and general circumstance. Most people are basically good...in a general sense...but they all do some evil now and then, and that's for a great variety of reasons. You can't possibly pin it all on religion. ;-) In fact, it would be laughable to pin it all on religion. You've have to BE a very religious person in some very fundamentalist way all your own to come up with something as extraordinarily unrealistic as that. You're so busy finding just the "weasels" in the woods, Mrzzy, that you don't even notice the bears, wolves, martens, foxes, wolverines, and other predators that hunt alongside the weasels. That seems to be because you don't WISH to look for anything but the weasels. Well, watch out for the wolf. He's right behind you. And he's not religious in the least. ***** strinsinger: "I don't think it's intolerant to disagree with someone else's idea of religion. The intolerance comes in when you try to exert your view over others. I think you can reject the belief system without rejecting the person. I don't think love me love my religion applies." I agree with that, strinsinger. I see no reason why you should not disagree with someone else's idea of religion or reject their belief system. That's entirely your own business. But you shouldn't pester them about it, and you shouldn't blame all the evil in the world on religious people, because if you do that, you are demonstrating a very unreasonable prejudice that cannot possibly be justified. Heck, I reject all kinds of belief systems (religious and otherwise), but that doesn't cause me to prejudge people just because they have a belief system different to my own. I have found very good people in a whole lot of belief systems I don't personally subscribe to. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Riginslinger Date: 20 Jul 09 - 04:20 PM And after a while you end up with Jesse Jackson! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 20 Jul 09 - 04:04 PM A further thought is that while these questions may make an individual vulnerable to religious dialogues, because they engage him spiritually to some degree, the questions that give rise to organized religion are of a different sort altogether, such as "how can I gain control over these rowdy bastards?" and "how can I persuade the community into supporting me?". A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Mrrzy Date: 20 Jul 09 - 04:04 PM The trick is, LH, the only people doing bad things in the name of their undemonstrable belief are the religious, not the nonreligious. And as we've said before, just because the church has done good doesn't mean the church is required to do good. However, who was the philosopher, for good men to do evil requires religion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Stringsinger Date: 20 Jul 09 - 03:30 PM I don't think it's intolerant to disagree with someone else's idea of religion. The intolerance comes in when you try to exert your view over others. I think you can reject the belief system without rejecting the person. I don't think love me love my religion applies. "What is important in life? What do we live for? Why do we die? What constitutes good and evil, and how should we behave to others? Is there anything beyond death? Is there any higher purpose in our lives? Where did we come from?" These questions do not require religious belief. Nor do they really require a philosophical system of belief. What is important in life is highly individual and can't be scripted. What do we live for is built in to our DNA. Good and evil depend on certain definitions that are often hard to agree about. In religion, there is a Manichean view which states that there are definitive goods and evils proscribed by religion. Is there anything beyond death to me is a question not worth asking. There can be no answer that makes any sense. Higher purpose does not require philosophy or religion to suggest what that is. It is highly dependent on values and definitions. We are learning more about where we come from through scientific breakthroughs in physiology, cosmology and other disciplines. In short, you don't need religion or philosophy to answer these questions, some of which will remain unanswerable regardless. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: M.Ted Date: 20 Jul 09 - 03:29 PM "People who object to other people being either religious or nonreligious strike me as being a lot like people who object to other people belonging to any religion or political party or nation or culture or race that is different from their own. They're intolerant and prejudiced and probably fearful at some level. Whichever thing makes them most afraid...that's where you'll find their strongest prejudice coming forth." You've hit the proverbial nail on the head, Little Hawk-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: M.Ted Date: 20 Jul 09 - 03:26 PM I don't think we exactly disagree, Mr. Red--I was just saying that morality doesn't come from the Universe, it comes from us--I use "Grand Architect of the Universe" in the sense that Freemasons do, as sort of a catch-all for your favorite Prime Cause---An atheistic universe still has to have a Prime Cause, of some sort--- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Jul 09 - 01:59 PM Yes, the primary reason for building walled settlements was for the defense of the community from raids by armed bands of soldiers and bandits. The only way you could do it was to erect high walls around the place. The settlements were usually primarily agriculturally-based to begin with, but wherever you gather many people together you also provide much opportunity for tradespeople of all kinds, thus you begin creating a mercantile base as well...and it keeps growing. All of this is beautifully described in "The Pillars of the Earth". The people in Kingsbridge are eventually forced to build a wall around the town out of sheer necessity, because a loal baron keeps raiding the place and killing its people. Such things would have inevitably occurred with or without religion, but religion is one of the things that naturally seems to arise with the growth of a human culture. And why? Because people seek answers about the biggest philosophical questions in life, that's why. Questions like: What is important in life? What do we live for? Why do we die? What constitutes good and evil, and how should we behave to others? Is there anything beyond death? Is there any higher purpose in our lives? Where did we come from? Much of science also arises out of these questions, and that's why religion and science were seen as parts of the same discipline for a very long time...and probably will be seen that way again in the rather near future. All these questions are very much worth asking, and it is because people ask them that we have both religions and philosophies of all kinds. People who object to other people being either religious or nonreligious strike me as being a lot like people who object to other people belonging to any religion or political party or nation or culture or race that is different from their own. They're intolerant and prejudiced and probably fearful at some level. Whichever thing makes them most afraid...that's where you'll find their strongest prejudice coming forth. They might better be happy with their own way of being and leave others alone to likewise be happy with their own way of being. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 20 Jul 09 - 01:52 PM Well, centers for defense may have been the basis of city-formations, but there's nothing religious about wanting to stay alive and fend off marauders. And there's nothing religious about most marauding, either. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Paul Burke Date: 20 Jul 09 - 01:31 PM There's no evidence that the first cities were mercantile. Settlements like Jericho and Çatal Hüyük were probably more defensive in nature- in a world where some have crops and domestic cattle, and others live as gatherers and hunters it makes sense to concentrate strongly enough to frighten or fight off marauding bands. The Mesopotamian cities developed around the need to organise massive communal works for irrigation- based agriculture. The need for organisation came first, and it's the power behind the organisation that needed a legitimisation- hence priesthoods and religions. Trading in the earlier days seems to have been more ritual than economic, though as the elites became more successful at monopolising surpluses, trade in luxury goods became established. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 20 Jul 09 - 12:56 PM it was the tool used to steal the hard work of ordinary folk that made cities possible. I think you will find there are plenty of simple economic factors in the mercantilism that brought about the expansion of the first cities without landing on religion as th eprimary tool. That is not to say that religions haven't stolen lots of hard work from people at all levels; not to mention lives, property, families and other valuables! The net worth of the Catholic Church today is probably as big as many international corporations. One discussion on Yahoo as regards the net worth of the RC organization worldwide:
Consider, as well, that these valuations do not include the estimation of market value of properties world-wide, or holdings of priceless works of art and antiquity of which there is no clear inventory publicly available. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Jul 09 - 12:23 PM People will kill in the name of anything...whether or not they are religious. They will commit all manner of crimes and immorality...whether or not they are religious. They will also do all manner of kindness and wonderful and beautiful things...whether or not they are religious. Therefore judge them only on the basis of what they actually do...whether or not they are religious. If you can manage that, you can truly be said to be free of prejudice, and you will also make a useful contribution to human happiness...both yours and others' happiness. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Mr Red Date: 20 Jul 09 - 07:00 AM M.Ted I think you're missing my point. I describe what is based on what can be seen. Theory follows facts. "Architect of the Universe" is a religious contruct. The evidence for this "Planner of the Fimament and all below" is based on deduction from the evidence. Theory follows analysis of the facts. A subtle difference and delineated by the "B" word. Belief. Killing is inevitable however immoral. Greed is inevitable. And made worse by population - currently human being the worst example. And killing in the name of religion is not unheard of even today. Greed is not the preserve of the ungodly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Jul 09 - 11:44 PM "all the good things can be done without it" Not necessarily. As is made quite clear in "Pillars of the Earth", the Christian church often served as a very progressive social force in medieval Europe, given that they were a far more peaceful alternative to a bunch of murdering robber barons and their soldiery whose basic instinct was to live by plunder, rape, and indiscriminate brutality. The churce helped poor people, it assisted the homeless, it provided medical assistance to the sick, it discouraged the barons from committing the worst abuses by shaming them into moderating their bad behaviour, and it provided a refuge for desperate individuals in time of war. It also provided education at a number of useful levels and promoted literacy. It was an important civilizing influence in the early medieval period....when under good leadership (which was sometimes the case). It was a baleful influence when under vicious or corrupt leadership...but so is any other sytem under those conditions. To ignore all that and focus only on "the bad things" done by religion is to be blind to at least half the picture. The sequel to "The Pillars of the Earth" is "World Without End", also a very good book, set in the same town a few centuries later, during the Hundred Years War between England and France. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 19 Jul 09 - 08:47 PM I often use "holy shit" when I am clumsy and stub a toe or something or am surprised to the state of shock. That brings a whole new meaning to starting a religious movement. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Mrrzy Date: 19 Jul 09 - 06:41 PM But once again, it was only the bad side that required religion - all the good things can be done without it. I *love* the Pillars of the Earth. And its sequel, whose name escapes me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Jul 09 - 06:23 PM Well, I've seen and given consideration to both the good and the bad side of religion, Paul. I'm keenly aware of its historical abuses...and I belong to no religion. I'm also keenly aware of the very positive and progressive things that have been done by many religious people throughout history. Accordingly, I don't judge either religion or religious people as intrinsically good or bad on the baisis of their beliefs. ONLY on the basis of how they APPLY their beliefs, and for what purpose. They are all things...from the very worst to the very best. I've got a suggestion for a superb novel you could read by Ken Follet. It's called "The Pillars of the Earth". It's set in a town in England in the 11 or 12th century, and it follows the lives of a number of individuals...some of them are in the church, some are not...some are deeply religious, some are not...some of the best and worst among those people can be found in EITHER camp. The point is, you shouldn't prejudge people on the basis of whether or not they are religious or not...you have to wait and see how they actually USE the beliefs they have...for good or for evil. It's a terrific story. Read it if you get the time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Paul Burke Date: 19 Jul 09 - 06:15 PM LH, you use words in a technically idiosyncratic way. Religion/ power? You want to use the word "religion" in a way that absolves it of its past. You can't just shuck off 4000 years of oppression like that. The earliest religions we have evidence of were all about power- it's quite probable it was the tool used to steal the hard work of ordinary folk that made cities possible. Cruelty is at its historical roots- look at the Abraham/Isaac story: possibly an echo of someone refusing to xdo what religion required of him- sacrifice of the first-born son, at least for nobles, continued in Phoenician and later Carthaginian society until it was destroyed by the Romans (who used different human sacrifices). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Jul 09 - 06:03 PM Well....there are also "extremely", "majorly" (more Valley Girl lingo)...and...hmmmm... Paul - I think the Arab-Israeli conflict, indeed the whole modern cause of Zionism...is essentially a political issue that has been masquerading as a religious issue. Politics quickly embraces and coopts all other issues, as political zealots will happily use ANY issue they can find which will motivate people to join the cause. And what is politics really about? Power. And who has the most power? He who controls the main sources of money and trade in the theatre of action. And how are those sources of money and trade gained? Through military supremacy. And how is military supremacy gained? Through better sources of funding, superior weaponry, and better trained soldiers. And if the politicians can tie people's religious ideas to the political causes they are pushing, so much the better...it will make people much easier to manipulate and control. Religion wasn't the cause of any of that...but it makes for a great motivator once the political course of action has been decided upon by the politicians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Mrrzy Date: 19 Jul 09 - 05:18 PM I decided a long time ago to stop perpetuating the myth. Nonetheless, it left me with words like "very" and not much else. Shit, fuck, and very. Extremely constraining, but worth the effort, I find. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Riginslinger Date: 19 Jul 09 - 04:33 PM I looked her up. Ruth Ellis finished her sentence by hanging. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Paul Burke Date: 19 Jul 09 - 04:24 PM He claims that Dawkins is wrong is saying that the Israel/Palestine conflict could be attributed to religion. He'll have a job explaining why the Zionists chose to settle Palestine, rather trhan, say, Manitoba. Even allowing that it was Victorian romanticism, rather than echt religion, that drove the Zionist cause, the romance would be empty without the religion to legitimise it. That's not taking away anything from the more immediate cause, the scramble for oil in the 1930s, and the Mesopotamia pipeline. The most agonizing sense of hanging time that I can remember in recent memory is waiting for Diane Rehm to finish a sentence. I'm too young to remember waiting for Ruth Ellis to finish her sentence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Stringsinger Date: 19 Jul 09 - 04:08 PM Robert Wright has written a book called the Evolution of God. He is an ex-Baptist but in my view carries with him many of the authoritarian traits of the major Abrahamic religions. His view of conscience is that of being judged and acting out that. He claims that Dawkins is wrong is saying that the Israel/Palestine conflict could be attributed to religion. He says it's economic or cultural or land issues. I call this a form of denial. He was on Bill Moyers program recently. I think his view is close to a Deist position. Apparently his book has made the best seller list of the Times. His arguments invite rebuttal. It will be interesting to see how this shapes up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Jul 09 - 04:01 PM 200! Are we there yet? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Jul 09 - 03:59 PM You really are longing for an extended bitch-slapping session with mois aren't you, Amos? Should I come down for a visit to San Diego soon? We could sip mint juleps on the deck together, sit in the sun, and deliver subtle and witty verbal attacks on one another for hours and hours until someone's metaphorical dick finally withers up and falls off.... ;-) Then the "loser" (ha ha) could buy the "winner" (ha ha) a copy of "The Solipsist's Guide to the Galaxy". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 19 Jul 09 - 02:32 PM I think we should take up a collection in gratitude to LH for being always at hand and ready to inform us of what we should realize, and how to go about it. Such dedication to conformance amongst independent thinkers should be rewarded, indeed. Perhaps we should collect our wastes for a day or two and send them to him for his rich compost heap. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Jul 09 - 02:02 PM Exactly, Amos. ;-) OMFG! OMC! JF! Did you see that????? The best way to de-sensitize and cure atheist hypersensitivity to the use of the word "God" in conversational 21st century English is to hang around some teenage girls who've never had a religious thought in their entire lives, and listen to them say "OMIGOD!!!" about 35 times a minute as they chitchat about the latest gossip and stuff that's got them going. Soon you will realize that it's just another meaningless word in common usage and not worth reacting to or getting het up about at all. Or your head will explode. Whichever happens first. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 19 Jul 09 - 11:28 AM OMG!!! OMFG!!! Did U C wt Little Hawk SAID??? OMFG!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Stringsinger Date: 19 Jul 09 - 11:21 AM I sort of agree that expletives using holy words are cultural. I remember a prominent musician from Quebec telling me that when they get mad they say "piss in the chalice". In Quebecois though. I often use "holy shit" when I am clumsy and stub a toe or something or am surprised to the state of shock. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Paul Burke Date: 19 Jul 09 - 06:07 AM I doubt if the legendary Irish football commentator was invoking a deity when he uttered the immortal line "Holy bejasus fuck, he's scored!" on air. As for invoking "prominent religious figures", I've never heard anyone say "Dalai Lama!", or "Mahatma Gandhi!" when they've stubbed their toe- but it would be fun. "Mohammered!" when you've hit your thumb instead of the nail, "Canterbury!" has a good ring to it, "Holy Ghost!" and "Allah!" are sadly underused, but I suppose "Jonathan Sacks!" would only be appropriate when you've caught your foreskin in the zip. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Jul 09 - 01:15 AM Mrzzy - "Ooh, I've been trying for many, many years now to omit the terms god, damn, heaven and hell and it's a bitch, let me tell you." And it's really, really silly of you to even be concerned about it at all. These are common cultural expressions that have arisen out of thousands of years of past human civilization, they are NOT statements of religious doctrine. They are generic emotional statements that serve to convey emphasis and nothing more. When I say: "Goddammit!" when hitting my thumb with a hammer...I am NOT referring to a deity. I am registering a strong emotion. When I say: "God help them..." I am expressing a hope that things will work out well for them, I'm not referring to a deity. When I say: "God, it would be wonderful"...I am merely emphasing more strongly how wonderful it would be, I'm NOT referring to a deity. When people gasp "Oh, God!" during sex...they are NOT referring to a deity, they are conveying emphasis in the moment. And so on, and so on, ad infinitum. The fact that you, Mrzzy, choose to make a specifically religious-anti-religious-based issue out of these common uses of the word "God" (and various other common words) in contexts that usually have little or nothing to do with anyone's religious faith indicates only one problem: YOUR mental problem. You are obsessed. You're obsessed with something that does not even have the meaning you ascribe to it, and presents no threat to anyone. You're like Don Quixote, only there isn't even a friggin' windmill there! It's ludicrous for you to waste your time and energy over something like this. It's as silly and pointless as if you had decided that all Scottish cultural things were somehow a threat to humanity, and you went around complaining about kilts, sporans, claymores, Scottish names and words, and everything else that ever came from Scotland. It's that ridiculous. It's the kind of attitude that truly merits the not very kind comment "get a life". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 18 Jul 09 - 06:37 PM They're just words, Mrrzy.. and by Satan's underpants, we have a right to use them without guilt. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Mrrzy Date: 18 Jul 09 - 05:33 PM Ooh, I've been trying for many, many years now to omit the terms god, damn, heaven and hell and it's a bitch, let me tell you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 18 Jul 09 - 04:46 PM I trust it was meant ironically, LH, but who can honestly say that on certain occasions they haven't blurted out the name of some prominent religious figure or other? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Mrrzy Date: 18 Jul 09 - 04:11 PM "God," it would be funny? Now, that's funny. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 18 Jul 09 - 01:12 PM Why do we need initiatives to be "faith-based"? Why can't they be done because it's the right thing for society to do? They say they are doing God's work. I agree with you though, and I think 'good deeds' have an infinitely greater social value if done for their own sake rather than with the seemingly unnecessary excuse of religion. Although a lot of good is done at ground level by religions, and not always conditionally, the people doing it are generally under the illusion that it's their faith that makes it happen. Why anyone would need such an excuse just to be a good person, I've no idea.. Not low self-esteem, that's for sure. It's not even a good excuse - Hitler said on several occasions that he was doing God's work. It was the same illusion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Stringsinger Date: 18 Jul 09 - 12:22 PM Getting back to the original thread, any deprecating remark about non-believers has to be answered forcefully in a lucid rebuttal. So many times non-believers are called upon to be polite or quiet when religious groups force their rituals on us. I think Obama needs to hear this and not make us invisible. "Faith-based" initiatives claim to help the poor or the hungry but their employment is always conditional. Why do we need initiatives to be "faith-based"? Why can't they be done because it's the right thing for society to do? Any joke about bullets is not funny. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Stringsinger Date: 18 Jul 09 - 12:16 PM M Ted, this is why religion acts as a kind of narcotic. It doesn't bring their jobs back, make the economy better or put people in political positions who make constructive choices. It's a sleeping pill. LH, it would be wonderful. Every person could think for themselves and believe what they wanted without getting in anyone else's way. People who are religionists could keep their beliefs to themselves and not proselytize. They could leave us non-believers alone and not try to convince us that they are right. In the meantime, as long as this doesn't happen, non-believers need to speak out and say, hey, we're not invisible and reflect a percentage of people who agree with us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 17 Jul 09 - 09:12 PM 'S okay, I just forgot it again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 17 Jul 09 - 09:11 PM Uh... I just remembered onanism.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Jul 09 - 08:58 PM Yes, let's see an end to "isms", shall we? Think of it...(sigh)... No Republicanism, no libertarianism, no conservatism, no liberalism, no Zionism OR anti-semitism, no racism, no sexism, no communism, no fascism, and no bollocksism!!!! God, it would be wonderful. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 17 Jul 09 - 06:12 PM I like the term anti-ismist! Why, thanks Mrrzy, though to be a true anti-ismist, one also has to be open to the idea of anti-anti-ismism, otherwise pointless arguments can ensue.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: M.Ted Date: 17 Jul 09 - 06:11 PM I said this, JohnP--"In a "secular", more complex society, other associations replace the religious ones--country clubs, unions, folk clubs, or whatever--"meaning that when the opportunity arises, a lot of people fullfill their need for support and community in organizations that are build around something other than religion-- that was leading into another, very important point: "the thing is that in when a society is in transition, when people are disenfranchised, when jobs are lost, and when other associations fall apart, people move back to the religious groups." Which means that when all the other doors are closed on them, the religious ones are still open to them--furthermore, they take their disappointment, pain, feelings of rejection, and most important, their anger at the rest of the world with them. That's the beginning of militant fundamentalism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Mrrzy Date: 17 Jul 09 - 05:01 PM I like the term anti-ismist! Not a blog, aha... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Mrrzy Date: 17 Jul 09 - 04:59 PM Thank you, Paul Burke. You really can't put a person down on the basis of their belief unless it gets in your or society's face. Well, unless they mention it, you wouldn't know what it was, but if they mention something completely idiotic in a perfectly polite tone, it's still idiotic. Will go read the blog now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Ed T Date: 17 Jul 09 - 01:03 PM http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_I8Cg2cYthpM/Sk49hwK9JRI/AAAAAAAAAlI/0d84OsniIZM/s1600-h/JesusHeReallyJustDontCare. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 17 Jul 09 - 11:45 AM Any cultural cluster such as a church, a Boy Scout Tropp, a ROtary Club, a garden club or a police division has inherent in it the risk of toxic memes. Forming a group multiplies the risk factor because the vectors of transmission are reinforced, and also because the individual immunity is compromised by the mechanism of distributed responsibility. Sitting in the heart of a "We are" clump it is much easier to accept ideas because someone among the "others" has vetted them. The inclination to elect authorities, and then to follow them, illustrates this weakness. The responsibility of "I am" to choose rightly in the marketplace of ideas gets watered down by the happy anodyne of agreement and the displacement of ownership. This is why organized religion, essentially, is an oxymoron, a self-contradiction in premises. Nothing taps deeper into the boundless well of individual being andindividual responsibility than a brush with the Infinite, but writing it down and forming a group around it is almost self-defeating. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: John P Date: 17 Jul 09 - 11:22 AM To me, the biggest difference between a church and any other social organization is that the church is founded on and centered around a belief in gods. I don't have any problem with that, until people start saying that non-religious social organizations are the same as churches, in that they fulfill the same role in society. Of course churches fill their members' need for community -- any group does. But that's not the reason for the existence of churches; you don't need any special set of beliefs to belong to a country club or a non-religious service organization. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Stringsinger Date: 17 Jul 09 - 10:29 AM M Ted, Groucho said "I wouldn't join any club that has me as a member." The problem is that religious clubs tend to be more aggressive and some violent about wanting to "share" their values with others. I don't see the country clubs or unions going to war with others over their beliefs. Maybe folk clubs though. :) Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: M.Ted Date: 17 Jul 09 - 07:23 AM Religion is often the basis for cultural identity, that is to say, the church is the center of a community. The church, mosque, or synagogue is a substitute for the "tribe" that someone belongs to(though not the only one). It is often the center for social and business relationships, and the vehicle for mutual support in times of trouble. In the larger community, the church that one belongs to often relates to your position in that community--workers belong to one church, tradesman to another, businessmen and wealthy property holders belong to yet another-- In a "secular", more complex society, other associations replace the religious ones--country clubs, unions, folk clubs, or whatever--the thing is that in when a society is in transition, when people are disenfranchised, when jobs are lost, and when other associations fall apart, people move back to the religious groups. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: DMcG Date: 17 Jul 09 - 02:25 AM The only people who can't use logic to resolve the question of the existence of gods are people who believe in gods. The agnostic viewpoint is perfectly respectable and quite as logical. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Paul Burke Date: 17 Jul 09 - 02:21 AM But can we get back to the start of the thread: irrespective of what the boy believes or doesn', can't the goddists find it in themselves to praise his courage? If the original joke had been about a n****r, a Jew and only one bullet, and the boy had identified himself as a Jew? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Peace Date: 17 Jul 09 - 02:16 AM The reason I don't believe in GOD is that I don't know what GOD is. It's much like folk music: what's folk music? We can't decide on that, but now we are trying to decide on the 'maker of all things', etc. Right. I have some property for sale. Is this GOD people do or don't believe in a benevolent GOD? A good GOD? An evil GOD? YMMV, but until that's dealt with--the implied question in the above questions--then even atheists don't have too much to talk about in regard to GOD--or lack thereof. IMO. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Paul Burke Date: 17 Jul 09 - 02:08 AM That's the point about religion, or, for that matter, absence of it: it seems to make not the slightest difference to behaviour. I know Catholics who are socially very progressive, and others who are racist reactionaries. American Protestants show the same diversity, as do Muslims. And the only thing I share with the odious Hitchins is that neither of us thinks there's any such personality, power, intelligence or entity as anything that could be meaningfully described as a god. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 16 Jul 09 - 11:01 PM I haven't observed that the recent crop of atheists is particularly right-wing. I think the only thing new about their brand is they get to invoke more recent science in their rebuttals. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Stringsinger Date: 16 Jul 09 - 09:47 PM I think you can recognize the concept of a god without believing in it. Atheist is a label but I still maintain it just means non-belief in a supreme being. You can recognize mythology and know that it's just that, nothing real. I think you can have some fruitful discussions about mythology. Theism is a form of mythology in my opinion. I have to say that Hitchens really bugs me because he's spoiling for a fight all the time. Dawkins is accepting of people who have religion but he's a "get along without going along" type of person. He wants to know what you think and why. I'm not sure where Harris is. He has stated in his book the "time-bomb" theory of excusable torture. I can't buy into that. Dennet is very erudite and I found his book hard sledding. It seemed like he ran off into a lot of different directions because of his breadth of knowledge. Robert Wright has written a piece for the blogs with which I don't agree. He says that many of the wars today are due to economic and ethnic divisions and not part of religion. He cites the Israel/Palestine situation. I think he denies the religious implications. I go with Dawkins on this in that religion is a big part of the problem. Wright's contention is that the so-called "new atheism" is right-wing. That might be true of Hitchens and sometimes Harris but not the others. Again, the "new atheism" thing is a red-herring. Atheism hasn't changed. And there are all kinds of atheists, not a rubber stamp. Anti-theism is on the rise. It tends to be reactive rather than proactive. You really can't put a person down on the basis of their belief unless it gets in your or society's face. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 16 Jul 09 - 07:24 PM "Every time I touch one, it heals up" .....trad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Bill D Date: 16 Jul 09 - 06:49 PM "Then one old greybeard of a god said,"I am the one true god"...and all of the other gods died laughing." ....Nietzsche |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 16 Jul 09 - 06:01 PM One of many.. polytheism rools ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Paul Burke Date: 16 Jul 09 - 05:44 PM There is such a god, and he's called Ch3ch2oh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 16 Jul 09 - 05:40 PM Camels have more knees and put their feet down in a different order to horses. It depends which desert. If there's a god, why did he make me spout such pedantic shite? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Paul Burke Date: 16 Jul 09 - 05:17 PM Which would you rather have in the desert, a horse or a camel? A horse is a camel designed by grass plains. A camel is a horse designed by the desert. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 16 Jul 09 - 02:08 PM The only people who can't use logic to resolve the question of the existence of gods are people who believe in gods. (John P) I agree. I'm glad you used the plural too - to believe in only one god (faith in spite of no evidence) and yet deny the existence of all the "others" appears too illogical to be within the realms of sanity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 16 Jul 09 - 10:34 AM M.T.: I think that little string of logic is elegant. Perhaps we have been exposed only to the finished film, not to the heart of the script-writer, whose work had to go through sponsors, producer, industry mugwumps, and the whole of the organizational mangle before reaching a theater near you! :D A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: John P Date: 16 Jul 09 - 09:17 AM Some responsess to M.Ted: My own view is that atheism and theism are of a single fabric. One cannot exist without the other. I also think that the idea that there is, or isn't a God, or creator, is, in great measure, a product of the system of logic that we have created, and, for that reason, isn't anything that logic can be used to resolve. I would say that without theism, atheism wouldn't need to exist. Other than that they don't really have anything in common. I would also say that the belief that there is a god is not the product of any logic, but the reverse. The only people who can't use logic to resolve the question of the existence of gods are people who believe in gods. The real problem with both theism and atheism has nothing to do with the validity of either, it relates to the way that they are used as devices to cultivate and maintain political and social power. Well, that can be a problem. I've been an atheist all my life and have never used it to cultivate power. The only problem that atheism has created in my life is occasional minor discrimination from believers. Curiously, neither theism nor atheism address this in their own discourse, though always figures in each one's critique of the other. It's pretty hard to talk about being an atheist without reference to theism. As I said, there's no reason for atheism to exist without theism. Trying to draw comparisons between them seems like it's making too many assumptions about why people are atheists and how they behave around that. For me and most everyone else I know, atheism just isn't very important. The only time it comes up is during rare philosophical discussions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: M.Ted Date: 16 Jul 09 - 07:57 AM I think you're missing my point, Mr. Red. Here's a further explanation: A) We, at least those of us in the Christianity inspired Peace/Love/Tree-Hugger Culture of the Western World, believe that killing and death and suffering are bad-- B) The Architect of the Universe created a system wherein killing and death, and the attendant suffering entailed therein, are necessary-- C) It doesn't seem like the Architect of the Universe shares our values-- D) It is therefore unlikely that he "revealed" those values to us. Are you with me on this? Right rev tinminer: You said,"When someone can prove that there is a supirour celestian being, i shall remain a non beliver" I respect anyone who sticks to their guns like that! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Mr Red Date: 16 Jul 09 - 05:09 AM If the universe is so moral, why do all living things eat other living things? physiology. A cat would die if it did not get animal protien, humans can survive as vegitarians but have to have the right food on offer which takes luck or society to engineer. The universe ain't moral. Enough people in it are, to highlight the immoral parts. The problem is defining morality and the plethora of religions and subdivision therein give testimony to the problem. Is it moral to refuse to acknowledge the cohesive benefits to society of organised religion? Any more than it is to point to the scope for abuse of that cohesion? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 15 Jul 09 - 11:13 PM You raise a powerful point about the fabric inside of which our whole discussion has mostly occurred, MT. This is why my preference is to focus on the matter from the individual transactions outward, rather than pretending to escape that fabric and describe it from the top down--hence my remark about "godding in the affairs of humans" as a description of the matrix that generates not only the mythology but also the very experience itself, to whatever degree it occurs. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: M.Ted Date: 15 Jul 09 - 09:54 PM Some thoughtful and educated responses here, all much appreciated. Surprisingly, there isn't as much disagreement in substance as there is in style-- This discussion reminds me of the roller derby in a lot of ways--they go round and round, there are lots of collisions, conflicts, and confrontations, but in the end, not much change in position. Flew is one of a small number of people who are open enough on the subject to actually change their position based on their own reasoning, which I think is reason enough to study what he has to say. My own view is that atheism and theism are of a single fabric. One cannot exist without the other. I also think that the idea that there is, or isn't a God, or creator, is, in great measure, a product of the system of logic that we have created, and, for that reason, isn't anything that logic can be used to resolve. The real problem with both theism and atheism has nothing to do with the validity of either, it relates to the way that they are used as devices to cultivate and maintain political and social power. Curiously, neither theism nor atheism address this in their own discourse, though always figures in each one's critique of the other. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Riginslinger Date: 15 Jul 09 - 09:23 PM The most agonizing sense of hanging time that I can remember in recent memory is waiting for Diane Rehm to finish a sentence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Mrrzy Date: 15 Jul 09 - 07:52 PM Thanks, Donuel! I can't usually listen to her but this might be worth a try. Her vibrato gets me at that frequency that if I were epileptic would send me into seizures. Trees flashing by your car in the sun do the same thing at certain particular frequencies... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Donuel Date: 15 Jul 09 - 05:54 PM Look for the Author of The Evolution of GOD, interviewed by Diane Reems today. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Mrrzy Date: 15 Jul 09 - 04:38 PM Wesley S, most of Europe was Catholic at the time. See this map for example. But thanks for pointing out that I implied (rather strongly, but mistakenly) that all catlicks, as it's pronounced here, hate jews, my bad. Of course atheists can have faith, it just isn't a prerequisite for the atheism itself. But we can have faith in all kinds of things that aren't supernatural. And we don't have faith that there are no gods, even those who believe that there are no gods (rather than those who don't believe in any gods). Morality is a human invention. However, it was inevitable, since DNA gets around in bodies that are motivated, to wit literally moved by motives, and so there is motivation towards (mediated through the sensation of pleasure) and motivation away from (mediated through the sensation of pain). These are organized through the two neural structures, one in each hemisphere. Thus, pain is "bad" and pleasure is "good" at a very fundamental level for all animate DNA forms which we call Animals. And many, many social animals, ourselves included, have also evolved the ability to deceive and detect deceit, and the punishments inflicted upon said deception show that the society is structured such that deceit is "bad" if you get caught, but worth the effort (e.g., "good" if you don't). From that you get morals as soon as you think. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Jul 09 - 02:54 PM On a certain mystical level you can and will see the face of God in literally everything. It's called "wisdom". Or it's called "the God delusion". Depends on whom you ask. ;-) If God is the infinite, then of course God is seen in everything...because there is no place where the infinite is not. This doesn't make sense to people who see "God" in limited terms (like a specific being with specific attributes). It also doesn't make sense to people who react negatively to the very word "God", because you can't even talk to them about it without getting into a fight of some kind. And it ain't worth it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Stringsinger Date: 15 Jul 09 - 02:41 PM What's moral and ethical depend on interpretation of these by society. Scientists are investigating this question. I think that a kind of morality is built into the DNA of the human brain otherwise the species would have opted for "eating each other". Is morality and bullying a contradiction? Is war the human "specialization"? There was a time when drugs were used to benefit society before Big Pharma found it could manipulate the erstwhile "market". Meanwhile, there are those who see the face of god in their hamburger. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Jul 09 - 02:37 PM M. Ted - It is a good idea to eat things, or else you will starve. ;-) We make moral choices, however, about whom we shall eat, and those choices are based on ideas of species, community, etc. Most human beings in most cultures have decided that it's immoral to eat any other human being. (there have been some notable exceptions to that too) Morality is not an "all or nothing" thing. You are not completely moral, are you? Neither are you completely immoral. You're a compromise between the two. Moral codes are usually an attempt toward improving people's behaviour, but they never result in totally perfecting it. Furthermore, there's nothing immoral about a hawk eating a mouse...although the mouse doesn't like it! ;-) Our views on morality continue evolving, and our morality is not "all or nothing"....it's a compromise between various extremes of behaviour. To eat any and all other living beings, including one's own family members and children, would be going to one farthest extreme. To refuse to eat ANY other living beings, including plants, would be going to the other farthest extreme. Most of us are somewhere in between those extremes. Most sensible moral systems are based on a middle path between gross extremes of behaviour. The Buddhist path is a particularly good one in that respect...but then you have the extreme Buddhists and the moderate Buddhists. The moderate ones are more relaxed in their view of morality, and probably wiser, in my opinion. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 15 Jul 09 - 01:38 PM The ethical impulse, or frequency-band, or ideal, or whatever it is in structure, does not require moralistic encodifications to operate, and in fact such codes suppress it ion the individual when they are enforced or asserted. Nor does the ethical drive require a deity, or any external Superior Entity, as it is quite demonstrable that in the absence of suppression or duress, individual humans tend to seek the ethical optimum to the best of their understanding. (If they are culturally indoctrinated as cannibals, this may involve eating other humans, but they will still seek it, and try to eat them in a fair way). Education in false or incomplete data -- such as the belief that "God hates you to touch your own genitals" or any such bizarre notion--when introduced into this process, aberrates it beyond recognition. Left to observe for himself, without all the moralistic bullying that is endemic in some cultures, the individual can become both ethical and bright by the use of his own intelligence and exposure to true statements of data. (This assumes he is physically sound and not assaulted by drugs, etc. Once pain, drugs and overwhelming indoctrination enter into the equation, all the insanities of the species are possible.) A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Stringsinger Date: 15 Jul 09 - 01:26 PM M Ted, you can't judge humanity by what takes place in other species. One of the reasons we've hung around so long is that we don't eat each other. I hope that doesn't change. A lot of that has to do with the evolution of the human brain. Morality is a human construct and has a survival mechanism built in. I have no faith in "faith" but I can hope for a better future for mankind. Flew is not a major spokesperson today for the atheist position. His "mechanical" god appears Aristotelian although he purports to support teleology. Deists generally do not support teleology. The Founding Fathers of the Constitution were Deists including Tom Paine. In "The Age of Reason" he rails against atheists. No scientist that I know of says that they created life. You can look at religion as Dan Dennett has pointed out in his book as a computer virus that has been handed down from generation to generation. Dawkin's "meme". Darwin never purported to create life. He was a scientific observer of the process. A Deist approach suggests a First Cause which some specify as the small sub-atomic particle that imploded into the cosmos. The idea that it couldn't have been created is anathema to many who seek a "metaphysical" or supernatural explanation. It couldn't in their view just happened. The conceit here is that because mankind creates things, it has to be projected on to a supreme "creator". It's a case of a god being made in man's image. An attempt to explain the unexplainable leads people into intellectual blind alleys. They have to attribute life to something other than just what it is. A theistic position can never be scientific unless it is proven by science. It will always be interpretive and speculative. Respectfully, Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Mr Red Date: 15 Jul 09 - 10:02 AM Athiest can have faith. Mine is faith in human nature. Some good, some bad, some so blind to reason they replace it with belief. Some downright selfish and criminally greedy - but lets not talk about bankers. I calls it a faith - but it is a blueprint for life. How to deal with people. Whatever gets you through this quagmire - says I. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: M.Ted Date: 15 Jul 09 - 06:07 AM If the universe is so moral, why do all living things eat other living things? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Jul 09 - 02:47 AM Morality and ethics are generally (for the most part) based on courses of action that will minimize causing harm to people, damaging their property, and hurting people either physically or emotionally. As such, morality is extremely rational, for the most part, and is not arbitrary in the least. (one will find some specific exceptions to that, but most human ideas of morality are based upon not causing harm, being helpful to others, and improving things rather than making things worse) Therefore, I doubt that the Universe is inherently ammoral in its basic nature...when it comes to living beings. Morality makes a lot more sense than ammorality, and I think you will find some moral consciousness among a great many living things....not just humans...because it is rational and sensible for more advanced living things to develop their own forms of morality. It enhances their survival when they do and it improves their lives. That's evolution in a nutshell. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: M.Ted Date: 15 Jul 09 - 02:17 AM Thanks for reading and sharing your thoughts, Frank--to clarify, Flew was for fifty years one of the leading atheistic philosophers, and, though he claims to now be a theist, he still rejects the ideas about special revelation, and still says that morality, ethics, and all that sort of thing are strictly human inventions, for human use, and, by extension, that the universe is essentially amoral. His "creator" would be more of a mechanic than anything else, and would have conceived and created cells along the same lines as our development of microprocessors, and went on to create life forms on the same principles as we created our computers and such things. Good, evil, and burning bushes wouldn't have come into it at all. The only reason that it couldn't have been just some scientist, or a group of scientists who created life is that, scientists are life forms, and they wouldn't have existed yet;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 15 Jul 09 - 12:35 AM Hallelujah Brother, for it is written that thou shalt carry thy guitar in a gunny sack, and sit beneath the trees near the railroad track. And thou shalt thus find true peace and enlightenment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Peace Date: 14 Jul 09 - 11:45 PM I hear that! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 14 Jul 09 - 10:03 PM Apologies for thread drift... I've seen Chuck Berry, and God is rock and roll :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 14 Jul 09 - 08:59 PM Not really, but I've got a few kicking around from 'back then'. Not many, but precious to me. I've got all thirteen Freak Brothers comics in original form. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Peace Date: 14 Jul 09 - 08:49 PM You collect comics? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 14 Jul 09 - 08:47 PM Probably my favourite. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Peace Date: 14 Jul 09 - 08:36 PM I see what you mean. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 14 Jul 09 - 08:32 PM Google sorted the spelling, no problem. Very amusing. Always been a Robert Crumb fan, meself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Peace Date: 14 Jul 09 - 08:24 PM Make that "Herman" cartoons. Can't believe I misspelled that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Peace Date: 14 Jul 09 - 08:13 PM If you haven't looked at Hermann cartoons, do so. Unger is a hoot, Smokey. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 14 Jul 09 - 08:11 PM Heh heh. After much painstaking research I'm now a Wizard of Id fan - thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Peace Date: 14 Jul 09 - 08:08 PM Rodney standing guard on the castle wall. he hears troops coming. he yells, "Who goes there?" Voice says, "William the Conquerer". Rodney says, "State your business." The reply: "I just did." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 14 Jul 09 - 08:06 PM Never seen it, just looking it up. I'm more Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Peace Date: 14 Jul 09 - 08:01 PM Were you ever a "Wizard of Id" fan? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 14 Jul 09 - 08:00 PM Mustn't grumble - at least we get fresh shit daily. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Peace Date: 14 Jul 09 - 07:50 PM Found on the www and edited a few out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Peace Date: 14 Jul 09 - 07:49 PM Religion Shit List Taoism: Shit happens. Confucianism: Confucius say, "Shit happens." Buddhism: If shit happens, it isn't really shit? Zen Buddhism: Shit is, and is not. Hinduism: This shit has happened before. Islam: If shit happens, it is the will of Allah. Catholicism: If shit happens, you deserve it. Protestantism: Let shit happen to someone else. Presbyterian: This shit was bound to happen. Episcopalian: It's not so bad if shit happens, as long as you serve the right wine with it. Methodist: It's not so bad if shit happens, as long as you serve grape juice with it. Congregationalist: Shit that happens to one person is just as good as shit that happens to another. Unitarian: Shit that happens to one person is just as bad as shit that happens to another. Lutheran: If shit happens, don't talk about it. Fundamentalism: If shit happens, you will go to hell, unless you are born again. (Amen!) Judaism: Why does this shit always happen to us? Calvinism: Shit happens because you don't work. Seventh Day Adventism: No shit shall happen on Saturday. Creationism: God made all shit. Secular Humanism: Shit evolves. Christian Science: Shit happening is all in your mind. Unitarianism: Come let us reason together about this shit. Quakers: Let us not fight over this shit. Utopianism: This shit does not stink. Darwinism: This shit was once food. Capitalism: That's MY shit. Communism: It's everybody's shit. Feminism: Men are shit. Chauvinism: We may be shit, but you can't live without us... Idolism: Let's bronze this shit. Existentialism: Shit doesn't happen; shit IS. Stoicism: This shit is good for me. Hedonism: There is nothing like a good shit happening! Mormonism: This shit is going to happen again. Wiccan: An it harm none, let shit happen. Scientology: If shit happens, see "Dianetics", p.157. Jehovah's Witnesses: May we have a moment of your time to show you some of our shit? Moonies: Only really happy shit happens. Hare Krishna: Shit happens, rama rama. Rastafarianism: Let's smoke this shit! Agnostic: Shit might have happened; then again, maybe not. Satanism: SNEPPAH TIHS. Atheism: I can't believe this shit! Nihilism: No shit. And of course we must add...Alcoholics Anonymous: Shit happens-one day at a time! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Riginslinger Date: 14 Jul 09 - 07:42 PM "Atheism hits the mainstream!" It'll be on Fox News by the end of the week! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Ref Date: 14 Jul 09 - 07:42 PM My wife tells me I must be a Humanist because I'm not egotistical enough to be an Atheist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 14 Jul 09 - 07:18 PM "Catholicism understandably asserted historical roots predating the schism; but then again, so did most (if not all) Protestant sects." (etc.) Thanks for clarifying, PoppaGator - I've learned something. For some reason I've always assumed the (apparent) Catholic viewpoint that they were always 'it', and others simply broke away from them. Not that I've ever been a Catholic, incidentally. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 14 Jul 09 - 07:11 PM Oh, LH, just click on Bill's name--he has laid down his every point of view over the years on this subject!!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Jul 09 - 06:05 PM Bill - Yeah, I know. So go ahead and comment. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Stringsinger Date: 14 Jul 09 - 04:16 PM Flew states: "It seems to me that for a strong moral argument, you've got to have God as the justification of morality. To do this makes doing the morally good a purely prudential matter rather than, as the moral philosophers of my youth used to call it, a good in itself." There is no evidence that can be scientifically offered for this statement. It's an opinion for whatever reason. The fact that he was at one time a credible scientist doesn't make his opinion substantial. He goes on, ". Perhaps I should mention that, when I was in college, I attended fairly regularly the weekly meetings of C. S. Lewis's Socratic Club. In all my time at Oxfordthese meetings were chaired by Lewis. I think he was by far the most powerful of Christianapologists for the sixty or more years following his founding of that club. As late as the 1970s, I used to find that, in the USA, in at least half of the campus bookstores of the universities andliberal art colleges which I visited, there was at least one long shelf devoted to his very various published works. " Although Flew was kindly disposed toward C.S. Lewis, the fact that he is well published does not give Lewis any particular special scientific credibility. He continues: "It seems to me that Richard Dawkins constantly overlooks the fact that Darwin himself, in the fourteenth chapter of The Origin of Species, pointed out that his whole argument began with a being which already possessed reproductive powers." Darwin did not say that this was a supreme being. That's a point of interpretation on Flew's part. There were many beings with reproductive powers and not simply one. Darwin didn't have the scientific information then that we have today about the origins of the galaxies and life in general. Flew manages to support his claims of Deism by citing philosophers, not scientists. Hume may be the closest to a scientific bent but is in the realm of philosophy, not science. Flew is asked "So of the major theistic arguments, such as the cosmological, teleological,moral, and ontological, the only really impressive ones that you take to be decisive are the scientific forms of teleology?" Teleology is a theistic concept. A Divine Watchmaker. Unsupportable by scientific evidence. I think Flew was unduly influenced by his relationship with the theologians and philosophers who were his mentors. He became wrapped in the spiderweb of metaphysics which prevailed during his time in college. As to the First Cause, if we are to accept it at all, then I disagree with Flew in that it is very important to concern ourselves with its implications. It impinges on how we perceive the "Big Bang". Of course there's the question as to what caused The First Cause? I think that Flew has flown out of the realm of science into philosophical and theological speculation. I think Dawkins would concur with that. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Riginslinger Date: 14 Jul 09 - 04:14 PM "Now, of course, before the Reformation, all of Christiandom was ostensibly under the authority of the Bishop of Rome (i.e., the Pope)." The East split off from the Roman Catholic Church in 1054. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Bill D Date: 14 Jul 09 - 04:05 PM "Do you believe in life? That's my idea of God. Life itself." and "John - I realize that some people may find it confusing if I call life "God"....but I don't care. ;-) They're welcome to their own concept, and I'm welcome to mine. " *grin*...and I am still entitled to mine that, if you say something that vague and general, you are saying very little except to yourself. Saying it to an open forum invites comment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: PoppaGator Date: 14 Jul 09 - 03:59 PM Christianity was Christianity before the split ~ then, once the reformation had begun, Catholicism understandably asserted historical roots predating the schism; but then again, so did most (if not all) Protestant sects. Every group quite sincerely felt that they were carrying on the "true" message of Christ, or whatever. Now, of course, before the Reformation, all of Christiandom was ostensibly under the authority of the Bishop of Rome (i.e., the Pope). We should keep in mind, however, that transportation and communication back in the 1500s was much more limited than in today's world ~ the Church within any given nation and/or language group would have been much more autonomous than we're able to imagine today. Those Protestant groups that succeeded and survived were generally adopted as the "national church" of a given political jurisdiction, and in early days were operated by the same priests and bishops who had been the "Catholic" hierarchy just days or weeks earlier. And, of course, the population in the pews were the same people who had just recently been "Papists." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 14 Jul 09 - 03:47 PM Wasn't European Christianity Catholic before the reformation? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Jul 09 - 03:46 PM Good summation, PG. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: PoppaGator Date: 14 Jul 09 - 03:03 PM "And we've already been through the fact that most Germans, and thus most Nazis, were Catholic. That's why they hated the Jews." I realize that I am not the first to address this, but I'd like to add my two-cents'-worth anyway: Germany was the home of Martin Luther, and thus of the Protestant Reformation. Well, "Germany" as a political entity did not yet exist at that time, because it was a collection of independent duchies and statelets sharing a common language and culture, many of which adopted one or another form of Protestantism as their established religion while others remained aligned with the Papacy. Prussia, along with many other areas that would later unite to become Germany ~ especially those in the east ~ became quite solidly Protestant. Bavaria, bordering upon France in the southwestern part of the future Germany, remained Catholic. Austria, to the southeast of Germany proper, became predominantly but not exclusively Catholic. Hitler was born and raised in Austria and came to power with his Nazi party in Bavaria (Munich), so there is some reason to associate Nazism with the Catholic heritage of Germany. However, at least as many highly-placed Nazis had German-Protestant backgrounds, and the German nation's historic religious affiliation is at least as Protestant as Catholic, if not moreso. There was a very strong mystical element to Nazi belief that harked back to pre-Christian pagan belief, including the legends celebrated in Wagner's operas, etc. The very basic concept of the "Aryan Race" was rooted in this system of quasi-religious belief. Nazi leadership did not make a great public effort to foist their most exotic beliefs upon their mostly-Christian citizenry, but rather made it a point to nationalize the existing churches in an effort to convince the general public, both Catholic and Protestant, that "God is on our side." Now, anti-semitism has a very long history that predates the reformation. Even after European Christianity had split into Catholic and Protestant factions, neither group was particularly more antisemetic than the other. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Jul 09 - 12:46 PM John - I realize that some people may find it confusing if I call life "God"....but I don't care. ;-) They're welcome to their own concept, and I'm welcome to mine. Besides, people get confused a great deal of the time anyway, regardless of what I say or don't say. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: DMcG Date: 14 Jul 09 - 12:08 PM As a practising Christian, I agree with John P. Ron, if when you say atheists don't admit 'their belief is based on faith' I feel you are confusing several different meanings of "faith". For example, if what you mean is 'their belief is based on axioms that cannot be proved', then so is mathematics, for example. Most people believe that if they hold an object at arms lengths and let go it will fall, but that is not usually regarded as 'a faith'. In fact, you make the statement empty of meaning because it encompasses everything. But while a logical system based on a small number of axioms could be a faith (eg Axiom 1: The Bible is always literally true), the vast majority of such systems lie outside any conventional meaning of 'faith'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: John P Date: 14 Jul 09 - 11:54 AM The difference being, as I've mentioned on other threads. that religious fundamentalists admit their belief is based on faith. Atheists are not intellectually honest enough to admit this. What a lazy statement! And so blatantly incorrect! Ron, can we assume you've talked to all the atheists in the world? How did you miss me? Please show a bit more intellectual honesty in what you say. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 14 Jul 09 - 10:52 AM From a cursory review it appears Flew was not paying attention when he read The Blind Watchmaker, if he did read it. It addresses the ontological argument neatly. But in spite of that I am sympathetic to Flew's version of Deism, except that it on the whole is a camp so muddled with various intellectual and spiritual leavings as might make some mucky military midden out of a meadow. It is always curious to me that people who discover, one way or another, that there may be a spiritual dimension to their existence, proceed almost maniacally to form it in their minds as a noun, a single conceptual object. I think it is much more fair to say their is godding among the affairs of humans than to say there is an entity walking around backstage by the name of God. There are perhaps 6.771 billion people on Earth at this hour, and given how many viewpoints each of these people has there may be a trillion informed points of view making up the composite cognosphere of life in this cold corner of the galaxy. And anyone or all of those viewpoints may be godding away at any moment. This automatic, cliched obsession with a unary entity makes less sense to my mind than Bush's compulsion for a unary Executive, and it may have similar flaws behind it. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Mr Red Date: 14 Jul 09 - 10:49 AM Atheists are not intellectually honest enough to admit this atheism is a refusal to believe. PAL! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: M.Ted Date: 14 Jul 09 - 10:01 AM Dr.Anthony Flew was one of the world's leading philosophical atheists, but not anymore--he has come to believe that as science reveals more and more about the universe, and particularly biochemistry, it seems like there is no other way to explain the how the mechanisms that we are seeing other than that they were created. Here is an interview where he explains his reasoning, and clarifies some of the points that we all seem to have trouble getting our hands around-- Leading Atheist explains why he is now a Theist |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Stringsinger Date: 14 Jul 09 - 09:20 AM One of the problems is the use of the word "belief". Sometimes this accompanies a lack of evidence which undermines its credibility. As I have stated before, there are no unilateral atheists. There are many kinds. They have one thing in common, they don't "believe" in a supernatural supreme being. To posit the existence of a god, you have to believe that it's there. I think there are degrees of disbelief. There is always the possibility that someone could scientifically prove that there is a supernatural supreme being but that hasn't happened. Someone might disprove the notion of gravity or other science such as relativity which quantum mechanics has brought into question. Atheism doesn't always mean being adamant about something. Anti-theism has more to do with the criticism of the practice of religion and its effect on society. The only time I see this conversation coming into focus is when you hear of egregious violations of civil rights or secular rights. An example would be the latest outbreak of political Elmer Ganrtries and Tartuffes being supported by the C Street group lead by Douglas Coe called the "Family" in Washington. Now we're talking anti-theism as it applies to the negation of the Separation of Church and State. Each atheist defines his/her position a little differently. The question I have is what is there to discuss if there isn't a god? Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Wesley S Date: 14 Jul 09 - 09:16 AM Little Hawk - When you say "a plurality of Germans to be successful, and most of those people were Christians, and the majority of them were Catholics." I'd still like to see some sort of reference to back up these claims other than - "Becasue I say so". I'm not saying that you and Mrrzy are wrong. But I would like to see SOME sort of facts to back up your claims. I asked a good friend of mine about this. He's a professor of political science and history at a local university. His response was: "That is something I've actually never heard anything about at all. I'm sure someone has knowledge on the topic, but I don't. As for the distinction between Catholics and Protestants, I'm not even really sure how that categorization would make any real difference. So far as I know, neither religion is less tolerant of Judaism than the other. I've never known either to have a doctrine that would allow hatred or genocide--But that is just an impression--" And that's the point I'm trying to make. That you and Mrrzy are expressing impressions. Not facts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: John P Date: 14 Jul 09 - 09:06 AM "I wish I could tell you how very sick I am of hearing this load of crap." I wish you could too. ;-) Be careful, Little Hawk. You might get me started. I know a lot of words . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: John P Date: 14 Jul 09 - 09:04 AM If you don't believe there is no God, then how do you figure that you're an atheist? Actually I do believe there is no God. That's "believe" with a small b, the kind of belief that comes from making the best judgment I can with the available evidence. Since there is no evidence to suggest there is a god, there is every reason to believe God doesn't exist. But since that can't be proved, saying I don't Believe (capital B) would be foolish. Going back to the "atheists are just like religious fundamentalists" crap, does anyone see how that statement is quite like the joke that started this thread? A huge difference in degree, certainly, but not a difference in type. It's making a group of people sound like idiots so they can be dismissed. Making them be not us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: John P Date: 14 Jul 09 - 08:54 AM Do you believe in life? That's my idea of God. Life itself. Yeah, me too. I just don't see any reason to call it God. It confuses people so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: goatfell Date: 14 Jul 09 - 04:47 AM I was brought up by a athist father and church going mother. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Jul 09 - 02:32 AM Do you believe in life? That's my idea of God. Life itself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Peace Date: 14 Jul 09 - 01:28 AM I wish I could believe in God. But I can't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Jeri Date: 13 Jul 09 - 11:44 PM Technically, the word atheist means without god/s. It could mean a person doesn't believe they exist or they just don't claim a god/God as their own. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Bill D Date: 13 Jul 09 - 11:32 PM "If you don't believe there is no God, then how do you figure that you're an atheist?" The very word a-theist doesn't necessarily imply UNbelief (though it is often used that way). It can simply mean...and should... NOT theist. Yes, I know that 'agnostic' is the other term for 'one who is not sure', but there are differences between 'un-belief', 'trying to believe', and just 'curious, but not impressed with the evidence'. All these are different attitudes that almost need separate words because people have a sliding scale of |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Jeri Date: 13 Jul 09 - 11:26 PM I don't believe you can fly either. Do you think THAT's faith?! Saying what you do NOT believe in isn't faith, it's a lack of faith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Jul 09 - 11:21 PM "I wish I could tell you how very sick I am of hearing this load of crap." I wish you could too. ;-) Ah well, you can't always get what you want, as the Rolling Stones once said, and some things are just inexpressible, aren't they? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: M.Ted Date: 13 Jul 09 - 11:12 PM If you don't believe there is no God, then how do you figure that you're an atheist? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: John P Date: 13 Jul 09 - 07:22 PM The poster who mentioned that atheists and religious fundamentalists are alike, in that both are certain of their beliefs, has the right of it I wish I could tell you how very sick I am of hearing this load of crap. To me, atheism clearly implies a lack of belief, and any theistic religion implies having belief. Saying that a disbelief in God is a form of belief is really, really stupid, and twisting the words around to mean something that they don't. I know that, as in any group of people, some atheists are self-righteous jerks. So what? Of course it is impossible to disprove the existence of God. The atheists, however, have more going for them since there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of God. Why should anyone try to disprove something for which there is no evidence in the first place? If there was a God hanging around the universe, at least of the Christian variety, wouldn't there be some evidence of it somewhere? I - and all the other atheists I know - are atheists because we've never been presented with a reason to believe in a god. NOT because we, in some way, fervently believe there is no god. There is a huge difference between those two positions, and pretending there isn't is dismissive, rude, lazy, illogical, and inaccurate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 13 Jul 09 - 06:50 PM I think I'm an anti-ismist. Atheism, however, requires no more faith than does not believing in giant two headed goat-people (with fins). It is logically sound, which is more than can be said for any religion I've come across. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 13 Jul 09 - 06:10 PM I definitely am, thanks. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Georgiansilver Date: 13 Jul 09 - 05:17 PM We all have choices... I'm happy and proud to be a child of God.... I hope you are happy being whatever you are...... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Jul 09 - 05:12 PM Hatred of Jews was very widespread in Europe during the 30s and 40s, and it was based on hatred of Jews that went way, way back in European civilization, right to the beginning of the Christian era, if not before. Nazis didn't hate Jews because they were Catholics (and a great many of them were), they hated Jews partly because of Nazi propaganda and partly because they had probably already hated Jews anyway even prior to hearing Nazi propaganda, but their hatred was exploited and augmented by Nazi propagandists. Naziism was a political party and a political movement. It was based on extreme nationalism, bizarre racial theories about an "Aryan" race, revenge for Germany's defeat and humiliation in WWI, and hatred of Jews and Communists...the people Hitler mainly blamed for the collapse of German power and the loss of the Great War in 1918. Since it was a political movement, it had to win over a majority or at least a plurality of Germans to be successful, and most of those people were Christians, and the majority of them were Catholics. Therefore Naziism had to appeal to that constituency by allying itself with the Catholic and the Christian faith, and it did so, quite overtly. It also, curiously, revived mystical ties to pre-Christian religion in the German culture...the great myths of the Germanic peoples from the pagan times. Naziism was quite happy to coopt any religion that would strengthen its base of popularity. They also, for example, made much propaganda around Joan of Arc, a Catholic saint, exhorting the French people in occupied France to emulate Joan and resist the English and enlist in the German forces. A minority of Frenchmen who were impressed by that propaganda did enlist in the regular German army and the SS and helped Germany fight the Allies. The Nazis got a lot of mileage out of scaring religious Christian people with stories about the Godless Communists and the "evil" Jews who had "murdered Christ". Hitler referred to Jesus favorably in Mein Kampf, implying that he (Hitler) was carrying out what Jesus would have wanted, and he said that Jesus did not bring a message of peace because "Jesus was a fighter". He obviously interpreted the Bible solely to suit his own political agenda...just as so many other aggressors and oppressors have done. Anyone can use the Bible to justify anything. Hitler used the religious faith of Germans to justify a holy war against Jews and Communists. Does any of this sound familiar to those who have observed the rise of the extreme Religous Right in the USA? I'll tell you who was an atheist. Stalin was an atheist. And so was his entire political philosophy. Some other famous atheist leaders of recent history include Mao Tse Tung and Pol Pot and the leaders of North Korea. Nice bunch of boys, eh? Evil can work equally well under the auspices of a religion...or in violent reaction against religion. In either case, fanaticism and ruthlessness are what produce the evil...not religion or the lack of religion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Wesley S Date: 13 Jul 09 - 03:56 PM "And we've already been through the fact that most Germans, and thus most Nazis, were Catholic. That's why they hated the Jews." And my contention is that they hated jews because they were Nazi's - not because they were Catholic. You are assuming that most Catholics hate Jews. Is there any evidence to prove your point? Any proof that most Nazi's were Catholic? If so I've missed it and would like to see your information. Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 13 Jul 09 - 03:52 PM The connection was that the French Jacobin club used a Jacobin monastery as their headquarters, according to one source. ANd on closer examination it looks like I misused the -ite suffix, which belongs to the early-era defenders of Stuarts and James in particular (Jacobites) who were separate and different from Jacobins who led the Revolution in France, named after the Dominican sect whose monastary they borrowed as headquarters originally. My error. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 13 Jul 09 - 03:47 PM They weren't Scots Jacobites of Prince Charlie, but the French Jacobite Club, supporters of Robespierre, and one of the main forces in the bloody uprisings against the aristocracy in the early phase of the Revolution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Paul Burke Date: 13 Jul 09 - 03:42 PM Paine released from imprisonment by the Jacobites I don't think Bonnie Prince Chairlie's supporters bothered Thomas Paine much. Nor probably did the Jacobeans, and I think he would have enjoyed Jacobians had he known about them. The Jacobins, on the other hand, were potentially a severe (if brief) pain in the neck. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Stringsinger Date: 13 Jul 09 - 03:18 PM I don't see any difference between a new and old Atheist. The only possible difference is the rise of the Anti-theist which takes an aggressive stance toward ending religion. I agree that there is no accommodation that can take place. At this point, I'm not willing to become overtly aggressive in challenging religious people. I really believe that everyone is entitled to their point-of-view whether I agree with it or not provided it doesn't hurt others. I think this point-of-view is an American heritable trait. There does come a time when the imposition of religion on others does become hurtful. Then I see a need for Anti-theism at least as far as that becomes a protest against institutional practices such as child molestation or hypocritical prejudice such as in the so-called DOMA and the abuse of women. I have a problem with evangelizing (forcing religion on another). I see Stalinist Communism as a form of religion. This gives rise to the notion of Fundamentalist Atheism which I believe to be incorrect. Stalin was very much the Jim Jones of the Soviets. I see many political cults being organized today along these same lines. Eric Hoffer wrote an interesting view called "The True Believer". Some of his observations hold true today. I make a distinction between "faith" and "hope". "Faith" is mired in doctrine or rigid adherence. "Hope" is futuristic but not bound by dogma. Obama seems to be confusing the two these days. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Mrrzy Date: 13 Jul 09 - 02:09 PM That's because not believing in gods doesn't require faith in anything, just conclusion. On the other hand, belief in the supernatural does require faith. As the originator of the thread, it isn't that I want you to like the joke, but rather to like the fact that the teller got their eyes opened to what should be a normal variant, unlike Nazism. And we've already been through the fact that most Germans, and thus most Nazis, were Catholic. That's why they hated the Jews. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 13 Jul 09 - 01:01 PM The belief that there is no evidence to hand on which to base a postulate, and therefore no reason to adopt that postulate, is not a statement of faith. It is a statement of the principle of elegance in thinking, which teaches that the simpler explanation which covers the data is preferable to one which is more complex. Declining to erect a belief is very different from insisting that a belief is not true. Unfortunately, the word "atheism" covers both cases without differentiation. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Jul 09 - 11:32 AM You make a bunch of excellent points there, Ron. Specially the part about "religious fundamentalists admit their belief is based on faith. Atheists are not intellectually honest enough to admit this." LOL! Right on. Although...I think the problem is more that they are not aware enough of their own faith to admit to it. They don't realize how big a part faith plays in their taken-for-granted ideas and beliefs. Scientific observation cannot in any way prove or disprove the existence of spiritual matters or spiritual phenomena which are, by definition, not existing within the realm or parameters of this physical world anyway...because the scientific obeserver and his instruments are limited to operatin within this physical space-time continuum. One thing you said that I think is incorrect, though. You said that "the fact is that convinced Nazis were atheists". I don't believe that is so. Some convinced Nazis probably were atheists (as some individuals in almost any political movement may be atheists), but many other convinced Nazis were not, and they believed that God was on their side in WWII and that they had a spiritual mission which was in accord with God's will. I think Hitler believed that, going by what I've read. The Nazi high command send priests to bless German fighting units and preach to the soldiers. They exhorted them to fight against "Godless Communism" just the way the religious Right in America has always done. Every German soldier in the Wehrmacht had a legend inscribed on his belt buckle that said "God is with us" in German. That does not sound to me like a political movement that was atheist in nature. Many people like to call the Nazis "atheistic" now or assume that they were, because it's one more way for those people to make the Nazis fit the evil image they have of them....but I see no evidence that the Nazis were an atheistic movement. Quite the contrary. They were a movement which claimed to be doing God's will and which took much authority from launching a crusade to destroy "godless Communism", and to wipe out the Jews (who were seen as the murderers of Christ). The Nazis were actually a Messianic movement...their prophet (but not their "God") being Adolf Hitler...and their intention being to establish some sort of Messianic world order that would be a renewal of the Holy Roman Empire, under German leadership, of course. Hitler wasn't "God" to them...he was Mohammed to them. There's a difference. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Mr Red Date: 13 Jul 09 - 09:42 AM So Paine was a pain, and Washington washed his hands .............. Reality imitates art. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 13 Jul 09 - 08:37 AM Ron: Paine's bitterness toward Washington was centered on the fact that W., in consideration of French<>English politics at the time, refrained from interceding to have Paine released from imprisonment by the Jacobites. As mentioned earlier in the thread, this put Paine at close risk of execution. Considering the support Washington's own war had received from Paine, it was ingratitude at best. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Ron Davies Date: 13 Jul 09 - 07:34 AM Obviously it should be "split hairs". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Gervase Date: 13 Jul 09 - 07:29 AM that religious fundamentalists admit their belief is based on faith. Atheists are not intellectually honest enough to admit this. Eh? My atheism is based purely on my own observations. No faith involved, merely the observation that there apears to be absolutely no need for a 'creator' and certainly no evidence of one. For me the notion of 'god' seems utterly illogical - particularly the sort of god suggested by the Christian faith - and it it would seem to be self-evident that all notions of 'god' are man-made. I have to say that the statistics for religious belief in the USA do astonish me, particularly those to do with the literal interpretation of the Bible, creationism and the like. As has been said, it must make things very awkward for anyone of any intelligence who wants to run for public office - at least in the UK we have political figures like Nick Clegg, David Miliband and George Osborne who aren't afraid to say that they don't believe in god. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Ron Davies Date: 13 Jul 09 - 07:08 AM 1) Paine: Paine, while at first lionized in France, was thrown in prison , as I recall, for the crime of opposing the execution of Louis XVI. He was not one who knew how to win friends and influence people in his personal life--though a good pamphleteer. He in fact blamed Washington for letting him stay in prison in France, even going so far to accuse Washington of being a bad military commander, and, as I recall, also accusing him of cowardice. I have at least one biography of him--and it irks me that I can't locate it--otherwise I'd give you a direct quote. You can also cut hairs as much as you want, but at the time, regardless of anything he may have said disputing the idea that he was an atheist, he was looked at as such---and therefore political poison. He did not help his cause by not only attacking religion, but doing so by ridiculing tenets of various faiths--the Virgin Birth for instance. 2) the "joke": Well, if the originator of the thread wants us to be happy that atheists are lumped with Nazis in jokes as deserving of summary execution, I'm sure he knows best. Among other reasons the joke is worse than pathetic, the fact is that convinced Nazis were atheists--unless you consider that worship of Hitler is a religion. And that is a plausible statement. Since one of the many reasons atheism has been a complete disaster as a basis of government is that it allows the leader of the country to substitute for a deity--which makes it rather a problem to criticize said leader. 3) The poster who mentioned that atheists and religious fundamentalists are alike, in that both are certain of their beliefs, has the right of it. The difference being, as I've mentioned on other threads. that religious fundamentalists admit their belief is based on faith. Atheists are not intellectually honest enough to admit this. Which is interesting, since they are constantly alleging they have science behind them. Sorry, they do not. Agnostics do --since there is obviously no conclusive proof either way. Not atheists. And as I've also said, I'm not in the least religious. As I've also said elsewhere, any person who seriously thinks atheism has "hit the mainstream in the US", should stay out of politics. Just stay in nice friendly territory---like Mudcat. Any attempt by atheists to take "under God" out of the Pledge, "In God We Trust" off coins, etc, will do nothing but strengthen the Sarah Palins of the US. And if atheists ever do start thinking, perhaps they will realize this. The political stupidity of atheists was amply demonstrated in the 2004 election. And Sarah --(and like political figures)-- is already enough of a threat to the Republic without brilliant thinkers playing into her hands. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 12 Jul 09 - 07:19 PM Remarks on the New Atheism. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 12 Jul 09 - 07:10 PM I think you're right LH. When I say 'religious', by the way, I don't live in a particularly cosmopolitan place, so the observation is admittedly limited more or less to Christians and non-believers. Generally the higher the church, the greater the fuss. In that respect I feel sorry for them. I suspect a fair few will realise they've been conned just as it's too late. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Jul 09 - 06:51 PM That might be because they did not fear divine punishment for their "sins". I can't fathom why anyone would believe in a vengeful God. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 12 Jul 09 - 06:48 PM I was told by nurses who work at our local hospice that non-believers generally had far more peaceful deaths than religious folk and were more accepting of the situation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Bill D Date: 12 Jul 09 - 05:38 PM I have been told I'm GOING to Hell because of the state of my beliefs.......and I have been told I'm sure to go to Heaven because God will recognize my basic 'goodness' and righteous life. I'm not sure which scares me more. As you see, ANY combination of beliefs and rationalizations of them is possible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: GUEST,Wesley S Date: 12 Jul 09 - 05:27 PM So - Mrzzy - are we EVER going to get to hear the answer to the joke? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 12 Jul 09 - 02:20 PM Good post, Jeri. I think there is a subtle cultural burden placed on the word "atheist" well beyond its definition, with connotations of "communist" or "evil-doer" built in. It has nothing to do with the question of recognizingodhood or not, but with a political indoctrination left over from the Fifties, IMHO. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Jeri Date: 12 Jul 09 - 02:11 PM Paine wrote something I've kept on file in my computer for years: ""He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself" - Thomas Paine "This may help people understand why the BNP can post here and why Nazis can hold parades in the US I don't like them, but I don't like a lot of people on Mudcat who think the word 'fuck' when aimed at an amorphous group of people should be removed but find nothing wrong with stalking, bullying and trying to rip individuals to shreds. You say people have rights, then say, 'Oh, except for THOSE people'. The Other People get into power and decide YOU are 'those people'. ALL people have rights or none do. As for the evils of religion, I think bad things happen because religion is a social construct. In any social construct, there are people vying for power and wealth, and that's true of religion as well. Mostly, I think there's a potential for the religiously powerful to misuse power, but there's the potential to use it wisely. Naturally, people have a habit of fouling up. Father Murphy's Law. I believe there are more athiests than those who self report on surveys. It may be a quibble over what 'atheist' means or it may be the negatives associated with the word. Personally, I never really talked about my lack of beliefs until Mudcat. I couldn't bear to see dissapointment in the faces of those kind people I knew. We used to discuss all kinds of stuff at one place I worked. That day, a guy I supervised (technicality--he didn't really need supervision) and I were talking about somebody he'd known. I forget almost everything about the conversation except this: the person had been trusted by my co-worker. He said, '...and then, do you know what he told me? He was an ATHEIST! Can you believe it!?' And there was no more trust between him and his friend after that. I wasn't that into confrontation then, especially not with a subordinate, but I figured not announcing my non-belief in a supreme being was definitely a good thing. Would I have told a pollster? I'm not actually sure. I know for a fact that there are some rather blind individuals who believe that if someone doesn't believe in God, they have no incentive to do right and HAVE to be evil. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Jul 09 - 01:02 PM Why must one be any kind of "ist"? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Mrrzy Date: 12 Jul 09 - 12:16 PM If you don't care, you're an apatheist, no? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Rapparee Date: 12 Jul 09 - 12:02 PM You know, I don't think I've ever gone up to anyone and said, "Hi! Are you an atheist?" When the "missionaries" came to our door a) my wife responded "Catholic and likely to stay that way" and b) I said, "What the fuck business is it of YOURS?!" Sometimes I think I may be more short tempered than my wife, but I can't call a 19-year-old punk "Elder." Hell, I can't bring myself to call ANYONE "Elder." Those who deserve the title don't wear little signs announcing it and don't insist upon being called it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Stringsinger Date: 12 Jul 09 - 11:36 AM In the "Age Of Reason", Paine puts down Atheism. He considers it bad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 12 Jul 09 - 10:57 AM Obviously they did not know their man!!! :D Thanks for the research! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: DMcG Date: 12 Jul 09 - 10:04 AM "... Trouble erupted instantly. Paine was called a royalist by an angry figure in the crowd. One section of the crowd immediately swirled around his feet. It pounced on him, tore at his clothes, punched and kicked him. Someone then shouted "Aristocrat! A la lanterne! A la lanterne!" Others joined in, chanting "Aristocrat! A la lanterne! Aristocrat! A la lanterne!" Three burly men began to haul Paine towards the nearest lamppost in prepartion for his hanging 136" Reference 136 is to "Another Callender - Thomas Turner of Virginia" American Citizen, July 23 and July 24, 1805 I see from that they didn't quite get as far as hanging him up! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: DMcG Date: 12 Jul 09 - 09:52 AM ... while I do so, I should say it was when he was taken by a lynch mob, not by any branch of officialdom. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: DMcG Date: 12 Jul 09 - 09:48 AM It came from memory, based on "Tom Paine: A political life" by John Keane. It will take some time to track the exact reference down ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 12 Jul 09 - 09:43 AM I believe he was on the list to be executed while he was imprisoned in France, where he had made an enemy of Robespierre, but I have never heard he was also strung up. Are you sure of your facts? Even if not, his life story is a very colorful one. Here is a summary. According to this version, he was wracked with fever in his imprisonment, and therefore was allowed to keep open the solid door of his cell. The cell door opened outward and was swung all the way to the outer wall. The gentlemen who were identifying the prisoners to be guillotined were marking the doors of their cells, and by this quirk of fate they marked his door on the inside, where the mark was missed by the roundup because the door was closed later in the day. Eventually Robespierre himself was guillotined. The revolution was a messy business, eh? I hope ours comes more gently... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: DMcG Date: 12 Jul 09 - 03:15 AM Paine, had he been alive in the days of the Witch Trials would surely have been hanged. As slight diversion, Tom Paine *was* hanged, during the French Revolution. Fortunately, some friends found him and cut him down before he died. What is most interesting is his reaction, which was very much "That's the sort of thing you expect during revolutions" ... and he carried on just as before. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: goatfell Date: 12 Jul 09 - 02:56 AM the local atheisist dies and the ministers goes and consoles the widow and when he leaves he turns around and says "it's a shame, all dressed up and nowhere to go." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: maple_leaf_boy Date: 11 Jul 09 - 10:56 PM According to Bill Maher's documentary Religulous, atheism is a large minority. 16% of Americans claim to be atheists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Jul 09 - 10:32 PM Do they fear you are about to marry yourself or something? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Donuel Date: 11 Jul 09 - 09:10 PM This week my evangelist fundamentalist neighbor tied a little noose with a church pamphlet on same sex marriage and hung it on our property. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Jul 09 - 07:27 PM Very interesting stuff, Amos! So he was a Deist, eh? Thanks for posting it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Peace Date: 11 Jul 09 - 07:11 PM Paine's indictment of religion is well documented. Atheists embrace him. Interesting that way back he said "The only people who, as a professional sect of Christians provide for the poor of their society, are people known by the name of Quakers. Those men have no priests. They assemble quietly in their places of meeting, and do not disturb their neighbours with shows and noise of bells. Religion does not unite itself to show and noise. True religion is without either. Where there is both there is no true religion." Paine, had he been alive in the days of the Witch Trials would surely have been hanged. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 11 Jul 09 - 07:09 PM He is honored for his letters regarding political freedom. Particularly, his pamphlets on Common Sense and The Crisis, which opens, "These are the times that try men's souls..." are permanently enshrined as milestones in the intellectual path that led to the American independence and, indirectly, the end of monarchism. As for his "atheism", I offer the following quotation: "THESE are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated. Britain, with an army to enforce her tyranny, has declared that she has a right (not only to TAX) but "to BIND us in ALL CASES WHATSOEVER" and if being bound in that manner, is not slavery, then is there not such a thing as slavery upon earth. Even the expression is impious; for so unlimited a power can belong only to God. Whether the independence of the continent was declared too soon, or delayed too long, I will not now enter into as an argument; my own simple opinion is, that had it been eight months earlier, it would have been much better. We did not make a proper use of last winter, neither could we, while we were in a dependent state. However, the fault, if it were one, was all our own [NOTE]; we have none to blame but ourselves. But no great deal is lost yet. All that Howe has been doing for this month past, is rather a ravage than a conquest, which the spirit of the Jerseys, a year ago, would have quickly repulsed, and which time and a little resolution will soon recover. I have as little superstition in me as any man living, but my secret opinion has ever been, and still is, that God Almighty will not give up a people to military destruction, or leave them unsupportedly to perish, who have so earnestly and so repeatedly sought to avoid the calamities of war, by every decent method which wisdom could invent. Neither have I so much of the infidel in me, as to suppose that He has relinquished the government of the world, and given us up to the care of devils; and as I do not, I cannot see on what grounds the king of Britain can look up to heaven for help against us: a common murderer, a highwayman, or a house-breaker, has as good a pretence as he." He became notorious because of The Age of Reason (1793–94), the book advocating deism and arguing against institutionalized religion, Christian doctrines, and promoted reason and freethinking, for which he would become derided in America. In actual fact, Paine was not an atheist, but a deist, about which Wikipedia makes this summary: "Deism is a religious and philosophical belief that a supreme being created the universe, and that this (and religious truth in general) can be determined using reason and observation of the natural world alone, without a need for either faith or organized religion. Deists generally reject the notion of divine interventions in human affairs - such as by miracles and revelations. These views contrast with a dependence on revelations, miracles, and faith found in many Judeo-Christian,[1][2] Islamic and other theistic teachings. Deists typically reject most supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and tend to assert that God (or "The Supreme Architect") has a plan for the universe that is not altered either by God intervening in the affairs of human life or by suspending the natural laws of the universe. What organized religions see as divine revelation and holy books, most deists see as interpretations made by other humans, rather than as authoritative sources." His political espousal of individual rights undermined monarchies through Europe, and his deism threatened all faith- and doctrine-based religions. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Peace Date: 11 Jul 09 - 07:03 PM Of all the tyrannies that afflict mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst. Every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live in, but this attempts a stride beyond the grave and seeks to pursue us into eternity. The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion. TP |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Jul 09 - 07:01 PM Interesting point, Peace. It's not the religions themselves that are bad...they mostly encourage good behaviour and high ideals amongst people. It's the power-seeking institutions, the leaders, and the hierarchies IN the religions that create all the problems. They misuse the teachings for their own gain. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Peace Date: 11 Jul 09 - 06:57 PM All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. Every religion is good that teaches man to be good; and I know of none that instructs him to be bad. TP |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Jul 09 - 06:52 PM Right on! That's a great personal credo. Most Americans (excepting, of course, the savants on this forum) probably don't know too much about Tom Paine anymore, and least of all that he was an atheist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Gervase Date: 11 Jul 09 - 06:47 PM It's ironic that Tom Paine is held in higher regard in the USA than in his homeland, yet he was an atheist. It's a pity that his personal credo - "my country is the world and my religion is to do good" - hasn't found a firmer footing across the Atlantic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Jul 09 - 06:43 PM A few hundred years ago, it would have been a joke that went: "There's a Saracen, a Jew, and an Atheist, and you only have one bullet. What do you do?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 11 Jul 09 - 06:35 PM This has gotta be the most "Huh?" thread I've seen on Mudcat so far. Though I guess if the same joke was made a few hundred years ago, we'd probably all be creasing our sides? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Jack Blandiver Date: 11 Jul 09 - 06:00 PM Atheism IS the mainstream. Get with the flow! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 11 Jul 09 - 04:33 PM Gnu: By theistic I meant assertive about the existence of a God, or gods. That dopesn't mean acting godlike, anymore than believing that Obama is the President makes one intelligent. ;>) A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Jul 09 - 04:22 PM LOL!!! He should get a dog and treat it kindly but firmly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: M.Ted Date: 11 Jul 09 - 04:12 PM Many "atheists" are "reformed" fundamentalist Christians, and, unfortunately, though they have dropped the doctrines, they approach "non-belief" with the same militant attitude that they had before--which makes them even more tedious than before-- As to Dawkins, I think he resents the fact that no one worships him-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Jul 09 - 04:11 PM A lot of Catholics are really very moderate people in their religious views, I find. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: gnu Date: 11 Jul 09 - 03:09 PM A... buddy... Cat'lics are not theistic in the extreme... if they were, there wouldn't be a lot of peeps around espousing Christian Right bullshit... and a few others. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 11 Jul 09 - 03:04 PM Frank: Surely you will allow there is a substantive distinction between religion and theism? Especially monotheism? Buddhists are not irreligious, and are among the kindest and calmest of people. But they are not theists. Catholics, on the other hand, are not exactly monotheists, because they will pray to the Patron Saint of Anydamnthing at the drop of a hat. But they are theistic in the extreme, according to their Creed. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Jul 09 - 02:36 PM Bill - LOL!!! robo - Good parable. If there is a One True God, I think she's non-denominational...and tolerant. And she probably looks like Liv Tyler in Lord of the Rings. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: robomatic Date: 11 Jul 09 - 01:23 PM I live in a rather red state, Alaska. It is also rather Conservative in the Fundamentalist sense, as opposed to the traditional (Goldwater) sense, which I think was pretty secular. Howsomever, I am from New England, and what a lot of Christain Fundamentalists here are somewhat unaware of the fact that the supposed liberalism of (parts of) New England is likewise derived from Christians and related religions. Atheism has its place in the American consciousness. I'm still reading Dawkins book "The God Delusion" and for the most part enjoying it and storing up its argumentative side. Years and years ago I picked up a short story which I may have re-written in my tiny brain over time. Abraham, the first Jew, was offering an elderly desert wanderer the hospitality of the region, but also troubled to inform him of The One True God, and the old visitor was having none of it. Whereupon old Abe threw him out of his tent. Whereupon the One True God addressed Abraham as follows: "Did you notice how old that man was? If I could put up with him all these years the least you can do is put up with him for one night!" Whereupon Old Abe went after the nonbeliever to apologize and invite him back to his tent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Bill D Date: 11 Jul 09 - 01:20 PM I used to tell folks "Reformed Druid", but too many took me seriously and it took too long to UNexplain. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: gnu Date: 11 Jul 09 - 01:15 PM Bill... "... "what church do you belong to?"" Frisbeetyrian... I believe that when ya die, your soul goes up on the roof and ya can't get it down. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Jul 09 - 01:11 PM My answer would be: "the church of life...congregation: everyone...location:everywhere". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Bill D Date: 11 Jul 09 - 01:06 PM "atheists" (*small 'a' on purpose) are not usually members of anything about being atheistic. Those who are, are usually tedious and silly. The word is usually, and preferably, just a short way of saying "I don't accept what most people assert." It is useless to formally 'deny' Supreme Beingness, as no one can figure out how to check for sure....even saying "I'd bet against it" just states an attitude. All of which makes the situation here in the US so very awkward, as it keeps many very patriotic, talented & intelligent people from running for public office. They KNOW that one of the first questions they will be asked (in most areas) is "what church do you belong to?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: GUEST,iancarterb Date: 11 Jul 09 - 12:59 PM I'm with artbrooks. My preferred self-descriptive would be "indifferent." Never had to use it, though. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: gnu Date: 11 Jul 09 - 12:57 PM Art... "nonpracticing agnostic". Cool. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Mrrzy Date: 11 Jul 09 - 12:16 PM Oh, yeah, and I forgot that I still want to know the punch line... in case, even though it's offensive, it's still funny. Offensive jokes so often are, of course, or they would be less offensive. What I liked about the situation was that the kid obviously thought that there were no real people who were either atheists or nazis, and this was someone he'd already known and been looking up to (according to the counselors he was very well-regarded). Excellent thing to happen for that kid, really opened his eyes to the actual normalcy of the one side of his little equation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Mrrzy Date: 11 Jul 09 - 12:13 PM There is one atheist representative, Pete Stark (Dem-Calif), but he wasn't out at the time he was elected. The link above I thought would be to that, but it was to the first non-Christian person of the same old Book. And when I lived in the Boston area in the Northern (Yankee) US, there wasn't such a difficulty avoiding the pervasive yet metaphorical incense as there is here in the Southern (redneck?) US. I wonder what it would be like out West. I know that my friend from Colorado complained about having to shut out so many God channels on his radio, or something. It was never a problem anywhere else my family's lived on four continents, I might add. Can you imagine a European or African or Australian president saying, in answer to What are you going to do about XYZ, that they were going to prayabout it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: artbrooks Date: 11 Jul 09 - 11:35 AM I guess that depends on your definition and your dictionary. The definition that I am most familiar with is that an atheist does not believe that G/god exists. I am also aware that there is a belief that there is somehow some difference between saying "I do not believe that G/god exists", "I believe that G/god does not exist" and "I believe there is no G/god". I suppose that I am really too simple-minded to see any significant difference between these statements. To me, "G/god does not exist" and G/god exists" require exactly the same degree of belief, and therefor atheism is a religion. I define myself as a "nonpracticing agnostic" - agnostic because I don't know if G/god exists or not and nonpracticing because I really don't care either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Stringsinger Date: 11 Jul 09 - 11:21 AM Once again, the idea of being religious as an atheist denies the meaning of the word. It only means non-belief in religion, nothing more. Atheists who are religious are not atheists. They believe in something they can't prove. Atheists do not attempt to prove that they are right if they are real atheists. They don't have to. They can criticize and dissect religion but don't attempt to prove religious people wrong. They just believe that religious people are delusional. That can be proven by a proportional amount of evidence historically. Once again, you can't prove a negative. It's a logical fallacy. There are agnostic atheists, anti-theist atheists, atheists who eschew labels of any kind, and those who purport to be atheists who are part of a cult or political persuasion that takes a religious point of view. This idea of a religious atheists is propaganda by the religious fundies and I'm surprised that intelligent people drink that Kool Aid. Next, they will tout the Iraq and Af-Pak Occupations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Rapparee Date: 11 Jul 09 - 10:05 AM The figures I cited were taken from easily obtained sources. I leave others to find them as I did -- I've off work for the weekend. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Alice Date: 11 Jul 09 - 09:35 AM JFK was not only the first, but is the ONLY Catholic elected to the presidency. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: artbrooks Date: 11 Jul 09 - 09:18 AM How worrying? I'm a little surprised that there are people out there who didn't realize that there has always been a strong religious streak in the US. This from Wiki is interesting - scroll down about 60% - the number of Muslims in the US has increased by 156% in the last eighteen years, the number of Buddhists by 196% and the number of atheists and agnostics (lumped together, for some reason) by 204%. The number of Jews decreased by almost 15%, to only 2.7 million. The number of none/no religion increased by 138%, to over 34 million and "don't know/refuse to reply" increased by 193%, to nearly 12 million. The total number of Christians decreased by 10% and that of non-Christians increased by 0.6%. These figures are all for adults. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Jack Blandiver Date: 11 Jul 09 - 03:39 AM Thanks for for this fascinating, though quite worrying, glimpse into American Culture... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Peace Date: 11 Jul 09 - 01:53 AM I think JFK was the first Catholic to be elected to the presidency. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: M.Ted Date: 11 Jul 09 - 01:22 AM Just me, perhaps, but it's hard for me to believe that there are very many politicians who believe in anything at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Jul 09 - 11:55 PM Yup. Them's the hard facts all right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Bill D Date: 10 Jul 09 - 11:45 PM "Try getting into Congress as an atheist. It's not even enough to be religious - you have to be Christian. " It took me about 7 seconds to find this http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15613050/ I saw an interview with him during the campaign. The point is still relevant..it is HARD to get a major political position unless you are religious, and almost silly to consider running for president unless you are Christian....so far... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: frogprince Date: 10 Jul 09 - 11:04 PM Safe to assume that those not otherwise identified are assorted Christian protestants? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Jul 09 - 10:47 PM That is quite interesting. How many American citizens are Jewish? And how many of the members of Congress are of other Christian denominations outside of the Catholic faith and the one Eastern Orthodox member? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: artbrooks Date: 10 Jul 09 - 10:46 PM PeterK, somehow I thought we were speaking of people, not politicians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Rapparee Date: 10 Jul 09 - 10:37 PM I have to say that my figures for the House are for 109th Congress -- I believe that a Muslim has been elected since those figures were published. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Rapparee Date: 10 Jul 09 - 10:36 PM In the Senate: 13 Jewish and Orthodox Jewish, including Arlen Specter and Barbara Boxer. 1 Eastern Orthodox (Olympia Snow). 2 "Unspecified." 26 Roman Catholics, the largest group. In the House: 24 Jewish 1 Scientology 4 "Unspecified" 130 Catholics, the largest group. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Jul 09 - 10:29 PM Damn straight. You cannot get elected to high office in the USA if you are a declared atheist. No friggin' way. And that's scary. I'm not sure how it would play in Canada, because in Canada most politicians (with the exception of the odd Conservative) don't even talk about their religious preferences when meeting the press. It's not considered relevant to political campaigning in Canada to discuss your religious beliefs nor is it considered in good taste...except by the more radical fringes of the Conservative Party who have picked it up from the American neo-Conservatives of the Bush era. We definitely have some non-Christian members in parliament, though. I believe there have been a few Muslims elected, and we had an officially gay member of parliament out in B.C. for some time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 10 Jul 09 - 10:14 PM "Being an atheist in the US is no big deal either..." Are you being serious? Try getting into Congress as an atheist. It's not even enough to be religious - you have to be Christian. I'm fairly sure that goes for the senate too. Or am I out of date? Anyway, if anyone can cite a non-Christian congressman or senator, I'll stand corrected. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Jul 09 - 10:01 PM I prefer to think of myself as someone who is interested in all kinds of possibilities, but doesn't know it all yet and belongs to no group who claim to. ;-) So what I call myself now is not an atheist, not an agnostic, not a religious person, but merely a free being. The joke appears to imply that it would be very hard to decide who is more awful and undesirable and should therefore be shot...a Nazi or an atheist...and that's supposed to be funny? As such, it's just plain stupid. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Midchuck Date: 10 Jul 09 - 09:58 PM I'm with artbrooks here. Conventionally religious people and atheists have something in common that I don't share. They both Know the Truth. Sometimes I wish I did. Peter |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: meself Date: 10 Jul 09 - 07:28 PM Weird. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: artbrooks Date: 10 Jul 09 - 07:07 PM Being an atheist in the US is no big deal either, although there are a lot more Christian religious talk shows than atheist religious talk shows. Personally, atheism is far too religious for me - I prefer to think of myself as a nonpracticing agnostic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Rapparee Date: 10 Jul 09 - 06:22 PM I don't even understand the "joke." If your an atheist, so what? As long as your a decent human being why should I care? I don't see atheists trying to overthrown the government or anything. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Jul 09 - 06:13 PM That's a pretty stupid joke, Mrrzy. Kind of astounding, really. It has to make you wonder about the mindset of the people who made it up. Atheism hit the mainstream a long time ago here, but I'm living in Canada...I grew up as an atheist without any big concern about it and I don't remember getting any flak about it from anyone. Mind you, I didn't walk around wearing a T-shirt that said, "Atheist and proud of it!" or anything like that... ;-) I didn't feel threatened over it in any way, so why would I? I'm glad your son told the other kid he was an atheist. It might make him think twice about that sort of thing in the future. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Jack Blandiver Date: 10 Jul 09 - 06:00 PM WTF??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Paul Burke Date: 10 Jul 09 - 05:57 PM Respect for the boy. |
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Subject: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Mrrzy Date: 10 Jul 09 - 05:43 PM Coming from camp, one of the boys said that a trying-to-be-funny camper had asked as a joke, if there's a nazi and an atheist and you only have one bullet, what do you do? Apparently that IS the joke, asking the question. My son said something like um, I'm an atheist, dude, and the guy just gave that trapped look when your eyes go right to left but your face doesn't move... no big deal was made of it but the point was made. So we're OK enough to be in jokes told in teen geek camp! I'm so proud of us! And of Tim, who did exactly as he was raised... |
