I go away for awhile, what happened?

Subject: RE: I go away for awhile, what happened?
From: Paul G.
Date: 26 Jul 99 - 09:50 PM

I did a guest spot on a radio show yesterday. On the wall above the control board was an admonition that says it all, for me: "Do not speak unless it improves the silence".

I'll be silent now.

Subject: RE: I go away for awhile, what happened?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 26 Jul 99 - 07:42 AM

Who was it said "the price of Freedom is eternal Vigilance"? A Yank, I think - and not one of the dumb ones, Joe! - but whoever, I can only agree with him.

Subject: RE: I go away for awhile, what happened?
From: GeorgeH
Date: 26 Jul 99 - 07:07 AM

'scuse a two-penn'th from a newcomer here . . but like most of us (I'd guess) I've been throught these arguments elswhere more than once . .

Free speech (a relative term anyway) does not mean the freedom to say what you like where you like . . If you liken Mudcat to a club there comes a point where someone's behaviour, and refusal to modify that behaviour, means you have to "request" them to leave for the sake of the other members.

Trouble is, once you've done that once it becomes SO much easier to do it a second time . . and a third . . Until the club's frank and forthright discussions and argument are replaced by a cicle of smug, self-congratulatory back-patting.

So - I'd guess Max's decision was the right one this time, but that makes it harder rather than easier to get it right next time!

G.

Subject: RE: I go away for awhile, what happened?
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jul 99 - 03:33 PM

Why continue to stir up things and aggravate others?

This seems to be further discussion of something several of us seem to still want to discuss in a non-personal and positive way.

Peace does not exist of its own accord, but through a conscious effort to develop and maintain understanding and tolerance.

Seems to me the Mudcat could use some more understanding and tolerance. Also, seems to me, we can arrive at that by respectful and healthy debate, as well as sharing the music, which is included in darn near every thread I've ever seen in here, including the BS ones. It seems a "natural progression" in most non-specific threads.

Katlaughing

I'm going to add my remarks to Kat's message, because I don't want to bring this to the top of the Forum Menu again.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: All this nonsense
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25-Jul-99 - late afternoon

Gee, this all reminds me of my years as a Scout leader and camp counselor. It took me a few years to learn it, but I finally figured out that when there was a fight going on, it was not my job to determine who was right or wrong - what I was supposed to do is stop the fight. So, that's the deal - I don't care who's to blame. I just want it to stop, because everybody's getting hurt.

There were certain threads that were continuing the cycle of bitterness, and Max decided to interrupt that cycle. What he said was that any messages that were added after his post would be deleted. If somebody still wants to talk about it, I suppose they can post to this or a new thread, and they can even post links to those other threads if they really want to. Since there is that freedom, I don't think anybody has cause to squawk about "censorship."

I think that there are some people here I can call "victims," people who have made targets of themselves, one way or another. Certain people seem to draw attacks to themselves, and most people do not. there are various reasons for that, and I do not care to dwell on it; but I think that everyone should think about whether they say things in a way that leaves them unprotected. Then there are the "aggressors," who swoop down and pummel the victims with remarks they view as clever. Then the victims are mortally offended and limp away whimpering. Then comes the really melodramatic part - the rest of us, the "good guys," ride in on our white horses to give comfort and support the victims with a hundred smarmy messages so they can get right back up on their feet and be victims again.

And so the cycle repeats itself, and the battle thread soon becomes 150 messages long.

I think I'm pretty good at stepping back and looking at all this objectively. Maybe not, but I think I am. Well, from my perspective, it all looks like a really bad soap opera. Usually, the bulk of the discussion at the 'Cat is quite interesting, and a casual visitor can find all sorts of wonderful stuff to explore. Over the last week, the forum was full of vicious infighting, and it isn't anything to be proud of. I don't think anybody who came for a visit last week will bother coming back.

The balance seems to be back now - mostly music, and a fair amount of other discussion. Some of the discussion may be quite heated, and that's as it should be - but let's see if we can do it right this time.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: I go away for awhile, what happened?
From: Mudjack
Date: 25 Jul 99 - 01:23 PM

Yeah Don, tough week end at the home front, but some us were out at Blessings Barbara's for a week end of song and fun. Came back to this and BOOM, When the fire gets hot, that seems to be the time to turn off the PC and find youeself an appropiate song and wail away. Our week end did have some serious moments of debate like. "Which key are we going to do this song?"
God knows I love Peace and tranquility.
Mudjack

Subject: RE: I go away for awhile, what happened?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Jul 99 - 12:23 PM

"We seem to be doing a lot of that lately"
The "We" referred to was an extremely small number of people. Please. Enough threads have been shut down, (I agreed with the cessation of the "Max takes action" thread)let us now police ourselves. We've learned.

(with respect) Rick Fielding

Subject: RE: I go away for awhile, what happened?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Jul 99 - 12:21 PM

Gee, I count 33 out of the latest 50 as distinctly music related and several more as inclusive of musical discussion.....doesn't seem so bad. And this one doesn't seem vindictive, mean spirited, or threatening. Unless of course it's in the fact that I'm responding to an anonymous poster. Sorry.

catspaw

Subject: RE: I go away for awhile, what happened?
From:
Date: 25 Jul 99 - 12:03 PM

It is not so much a matter of debate, but of turning things into personal attacks. We seem to be doing a lot of that lately.

I don't think I particularly like the idea of shutting off threads, either. But I do think there is a time to shut up and get back to the music. This thread is one of those times. Why continue to stir up things and aggravate others?

Subject: RE: I go away for awhile, what happened?
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jul 99 - 11:36 AM

Uh, Don: I DO have a vacuum!**BG** And, I never put raisins in my corn muffins!

Well, said. I don't think we will accomplish anything if we cannot discuss, freely, AND without getting personal and vindictive. And I hate that I am now being more circumspect about what I share of myself, my opinions and the music I love.

katlaughing

Subject: RE: I go away for awhile, what happened?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 25 Jul 99 - 10:43 AM

I have read a lot of posts, even the little Armalite post and I see no way to reply without offending someone or beginning a flame war with someone else.

I will say this. I have long held that the notion of freespeach is ours to use and obuse as we see fit. But with the priviledge to speak must also come the wisdom to remain silent. We all choose to visit and live in this house for a time each day and as a family we have come to know the shortcomings and blessings of many of our friends and antagonists. I would never think of of going to Katey's house and begin an acrimonious debate with her about her lifestyle, corn muffins, or the dustbunnies under the sofa. But I would ask her what it is about her life that makes it best for her, point out that Raspberry Jam instead of brown sugar improves cornmuffins some considerable. And then I'd say the dustbunnies remind me of home. We must not stop these debates any more then we should stop the search for music and songs. If we can't express and exchange views as freely as we express and exchange lyrics and music then we must consider this a regulated community. I must say that many of the views expressed that some considered with out merit I tend to agree with. But the way they were posted and supported was done in a hurtful and clearly mean spirited manner. If the forum is to be an Ivory tower, dedicated to music alone, I would offer this thought. Shut it down and start fresh with all attendees signing a contract that states no politics or treason spoken here. But think before we do what songs that will delete from our context. I'd rather come to this house with all opinions welcome and debate freely engaged as long as people aren't the brunt of insult and innuendo and civility is maintained. In any case, I'm here for the long hawl, cornmuffins(no raisins,please,) dust bunnies debate or not.

Regards to all.

Don

Subject: RE: I go away for awhile, what happened?
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Jul 99 - 10:19 AM

I e-mailed him as well.

Folks, I've considered bailing out myself. There's trouble in paradise, and only so much stuff will fit under the rug.

I'll shut up after this. I just wanted to get my .02 in - if there are problems that caused several people to leave, censoring talk about it in this forum won't solve anything. I'm not trying to turn the knife in anyone, but refusal to allow discussion has bothered me at least as much as the actual discussion has bothered others.

Respectfully,
Jeri
Please feel welcome to email me. (Anticipating this thread will shortly be closed.)

Subject: RE: I go away for awhile, what happened?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 25 Jul 99 - 09:44 AM

Don, While a bit uncomfortable with a lot of heat, a forest fire is the only way to germinate the seeds of the lodgepole pine. What happened here while you were down (souds like what I had to do with my cat lately) is just like that probably.

Art

Subject: RE: I go away for awhile, what happened?
From: Dale Rose
Date: 25 Jul 99 - 08:18 AM

I sent Don an Email list of 10 or so threads. That should take care of his questions, though they don't make especially entertaining reading.

Subject: RE: I go away for awhile, what happened?
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 25 Jul 99 - 06:35 AM

Don,

It is hard to explain. Set your threads back to 14 days and pick some of the BS threads or one titled "My Little Armalite" to get a taste for it. I would also suggest one titled "Max takes action."

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: I go away for awhile, what happened?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 25 Jul 99 - 12:53 AM

Hi Gang,

It appears that controversy has struck while my computer was broken down. What has happened? Shambles is gone on indefinate leave. Art is uncharacteristically ( and unnecessarily) falling on his sword about something. There seems to be a lot of handwringing going on and Joe Offer is shutting down a thread. I've never seen this before....... whats up?

If you don't want to retune a thread, contact me at [e-mail].

Regards to all

Don