BS: Ian Bailey to be extradited

Subject: RE: BS: Ian Bailey to be extradited
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 06:39 PM

Extraditing Ian Bailey to France for questioning over the murder of Sophie Toscan du Plantier would have implications for every citizen in the Irish State, it was claimed today.

A barrister for Manchester-born Bailey argued the ruling means anyone who knocks down a French tourist in Ireland could face criminal proceedings in the victim's home country.

The former journalist is wanted by officials in Paris investigating the killing of film-maker Sophie Toscan du Plantier, who was violently beaten to death in Co Cork more than 14 years ago.

Seeking leave to appeal an extradition order at the High Court in Dublin, Mr Bailey's barrister Martin Giblin argued there was public interest to allow his appeal to the Supreme Court.

Mr Giblin said the case went beyond his client as the decision would become the stark reality facing every Irish citizen in the state.

He maintained any son or daughter who killed or injured a tourist in a car crash could be shipped off to France to face prosecution.

"Everyone is potentially in the firing line," he added.

Under French law, authorities can investigate the suspicious death of a citizen abroad but they cannot compel witnesses to go to Paris for questioning.

An investigating magistrate, Patrick Gachon, was appointed in Paris to conduct an inquiry into Ms Toscan du Plantier's death after the Director of Public Prosecutions in Ireland announced that nobody would be charged following a Garda investigation.

Earlier this month, Mr Justice Michael Peart ordered the Manchester-born 53-year-old to surrender to authorities in France.

The judge reserved his decision on the appeal until April 13.

Press Association

Subject: RE: BS: Ian Bailey to be extradited
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 11:40 AM

Hardly "unheard of" since the O.J. Simpson case. It's quite possible to bring a civil suit for homicide in English or Scottish law as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Ian Bailey to be extradited
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 10:14 AM

jack , IWOULD ADVISE YOU READ THE ARTICLE IN SAT MARCH 19 2011, BURDEN OF PROOF BY MICK CLIFFORD.
Iquote the last paragraph
if bailey is exradited.his fate should be of concern to anybody interested in basic rights and freedoms.you dont have to sympathise with the mans pligh to recognise the dangers inherent in what appears to be unfolding

Subject: RE: BS: Ian Bailey to be extradited
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 10:10 AM

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The Free Library > General Interest/Informational > General interest > The Mirror (London, England) > February 28, 2003
The Free Library > Date > 2003 > February > 28 > The Mirror (London, England)
SOPHIE'S FAMILY TO SUE SUSPECT KILLER; Civil action taken against twice-arrested Ian Bailey.

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SOPHIE'S FAMILY TO SUE SUSPECT KILLER; Civil action taken against twice-arrested Ian Bailey.
Byline: PAUL CLARKSON

THE family of a French woman battered to death six years ago are suing the man they believe killed her.

The brutal death of TV producer Sophie du Plantier in Schull, West Cork West Cork (Irish: Iarthar Chorcaí) in south-west Ireland, lies in Ireland's largest county, County Cork. The area is actively promoted as distinct from other areas of the county, such as the more populated northern or eastern parts of the county, as well as the more urban in December 1996 remains a mystery.

No one has ever been charged with her killing despite one of the largest investigations in the history of the state. Relatives of the 39-year-old victim have now lodged a civil action in the High Court against Ian, also known as Eoin, Bailey, once a suspect in the murder case. He has always proclaimed his innocence.

The freelance journalist still lives in the area and was twice arrested and quizzed by gardai but released without charge.

The wealthy du Plantier family have been critical of Garda efforts to catch Sophie's killer.

Exasperated by the deadlock in the probe, four members of the family hope to get damages in a civil court, where the burden of proof is much lower than in a criminal case.

Despite the death of her millionaire film producer husband Dan- iel Toscan du Plantier two weeks ago, Sophie's parents Georges and Marguerite Bouniol still want to launch the action.

The couple, along with Sophie's brother Pierre, lodged papers in the High Court on December 19 last year - four days before the sixth anniversary of the murder.

The family are in the US at present and were not available for comment.

But a spokesman for the Courts Service confirmed the legal papers had been lodged.

The Irish Mirror first revealed that Sophie's family were considering legal action in November last year.

Her husband Daniel, 61, died broken-hearted in Berlin on February 11, never able to return to Ireland after the vicious killing.

Sophie's body was found with terrible head injuries in a lane near her Toormore cottage - bought by her husband years earlier.

Her remains lay outside for 24 hours Adv. 1. for 24 hours - without stopping; "she worked around the clock"
around the clock, round the clock before being found and vital forensic evidence was lost.

More than 1,000 people were quizzed in the months after the killing but despite orders by the DPP DPP - Dining Philosophers Problem to re-examine the case, no criminal proceedings have ever been issued.

Cork gardai, who compiled 2,000 pages of evidence during their investigation, could be called as witnesses in the case.

The personal injury action, almost unheard of Not heard of; of which there are no tidings.
Unknown to fame; obscure.
- Glanvill.

See also: Unheard Unheard in unlawful killing In English law unlawful killing is a verdict that can be returned by an inquest in England and Wales. The verdict means that a death was caused by another person, without lawful excuse and in breach of the criminal law, in other words homicide.
..... Click the link for more information. cases in this country, has still to be listed for hearing in the High Court.

Bailey's solicitor said action would be strenuously contested.

Subject: RE: BS: Ian Bailey to be extradited
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 06:38 AM

On past form, no they wouldn't.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-10672343

More people are extradited from France to the UK than the other way round:

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2006-07-19c.83822.h

The greatest imbalances involving the UK are with Spain (far more are sent here) and Lithuania and the USA (far more are sent there - the US really does fit the image you're complaining of).

I can't find similar figures for Ireland. Maybe their system isn't sufficiently transparent for them to make them public.

Subject: RE: BS: Ian Bailey to be extradited
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:31 AM

To me the irony is if it was the other way round ie. some other country wanting to extradite a French citizen with little or no evidence, the French authorities would either tell them to piss off or ignore the request completely.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Ian Bailey to be extradited
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 04:21 PM

Jack,
1. do you think it is easier to prove ones innocence, or do you think it is easier for the prosecution to prove a persons guilt.
2. it is generally accepted amongst the legal profession that to prove guilt in civil case, requires less evidence than is needed to prove guilt in a criminal case.
whether the french system has a better or worse record is irrelevant, what is happening in this case, is that because a family has political clout, they can cause an extraordinary circumstance, that is:the extradition of a person to another jurisdiction to be tried under a different system.

Subject: RE: BS: Ian Bailey to be extradited
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 09:24 AM

I wasn't asking a theoretical question about the French system - I have some idea how it works. I was asking for factual evidence. We know theory doesn't protect anybody from a fit-up in the British systems, from Oscar Slater to Barry George. Does the French system actually have a worse record?

Subject: RE: BS: Ian Bailey to be extradited
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 08:51 AM

"...An Irish CID spokesman said on the radio yesterday that there was no question of the force 'looking to interview anyone else concerning her death'.

That says they know it was him in a roundabout way.

Unfortunately that is precisely what has been said by police (and accepted by commentators) in cases where things have turned out that they were wrong. Including cases where subsequent evidence has led to other people being convicted, and the original accused completely exonerated. For example the Rachel Nickell murder

Subject: RE: BS: Ian Bailey to be extradited
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:22 AM

In principle, yes. It dies not have a presumption of innocence, and the investigation is undertaken by an investigating magistrate so there is inherent bias, and it is not a public trial system. To be sure, there are safeguards, but the roots of the system are less protective than the common law.

Subject: RE: BS: Ian Bailey to be extradited
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:58 PM

Is there any reason to believe the French system is more likely to lead to wrongful convictions than the Irish one?

Subject: RE: BS: Ian Bailey to be extradited
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:45 PM

It worries me too Dick.

Subject: RE: BS: Ian Bailey to be extradited
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 04:06 PM

NO ,there was no incompetence on the part of the Irish Garda, but there was only one person available to carryout the autopsy,Dr Harbison, and he was very long in getting to the scene of the crime.
as far as I know Bailey has offered DNA samples, AND THEY HAVENT MATCHED.
But there is another point of importance here;that is that someone should not be extradited, to a different criminal jurisdiction, just because it is easier to convict someone, under a system whereby the accused has to prove his innocence rather than the prosecution having to prove guilt .
It beggars the question why, and the answer appears to me to be that the Du Plantier family have considerable political clout in France, ANOTHER CASE OF WHO YOU KNOW and how well you are connected.
the same sort of effort would not be used if the murdered person was a homeless tramp

Subject: RE: BS: Ian Bailey to be extradited
From: Thompson
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 03:26 PM

Scarcely fair to the Gardai - look at their use of technical evidence in the Rachel O'Reilly killing, where they secured a conviction using a combination of mobile phone call, text and location records, CCTV cameras from a wide area and time scale, and witness statements - it was a tour de force any police service would be proud of.

They're brave too - Irish people will remember a case in the 1980s or 1990s when two unarmed gardaí stopped a heavily-armed IRA lunatic in a car and persuaded him to come to the station, where he pulled a gun on them. They then followed him and recaptured him.

Set up by a War of Independence gunman who was determined that the force, unlike the British police in Ireland, would carry no arms, their motto is: "The Garda Síochána will succeed not by force of arms or numbers, but on their moral authority as servants of the people."

Sure, there are gobshites in the Garda Síochána, as there are in every police force, but there are many admirable men and women who do their jobs well and bravely.

As for Ian Bailey's guilt or innocence, if the French investigation finds him guilty, the European court appeal system is open to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Ian Bailey to be extradited
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 02:58 PM

Did IE9 kill off your cannabis plants, then?

(I would guess that High Court judge is conveying a not-very-coded message to the effect that the Gardai can't investigate their way out of a wet paper bag and the French have to be able to do it better. He's probably right).

Subject: RE: BS: Ian Bailey to be extradited
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 01:40 PM

Well... I installed IE9 and it's shite... problem after problem. And I cannot reinstall a previous version. And I can't do a restore after a Windows update. F***in Micro$oft!

Subject: RE: BS: Ian Bailey to be extradited
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 01:39 PM

no, it means that there is no evidence to charge any one.I know Ian Bailey, he is not a friend of mine ,IN FACT i find him a bit of a pain in tharse but I believe he is innocent, look at the quality of some of the witnesses against him, for example Leo Bolger, who gets a suspended sentence for having an underground factory of cannabis plants,the whole thing stinks.


Cannabis grower gets suspended sentence

By Liam Heylin

Thursday, June 17, 2010

SAYING he was "perhaps driven to trying to survive in the magnificent peninsula of Dunmanus Bay", a judge suspended the sentence of a man who turned to growing cannabis on a massive scale after his equestrian centre went out of business


Leo Bolger, 45, said through his senior counsel Tom Creed yesterday he knew he was facing a jail sentence but asked the judge to suspend as much of it as possible.

Judge Patrick J Moran said he was prepared give the defendant the benefit of a suspended sentence.

"I think perhaps you were driven to trying to survive in the magnificent peninsula of Dunmanus Bay," Judge Moran said.

The judge made this comment against Bolger's background of falling out with a neighbour about a drain and the neighbour then using a gas cannon to make gunshot bangs to clear birds.

Bolger said, at worst, the bangs went on all day at one-minute intervals and that this made his equestrian business untenable as the horses could be frightened.

He said the neighbour had no cereal crops to necessitate the use of a gas cannon.

He ran the equestrian school from 1989 to 2006 in Dunbeacon in Durrus, Co Cork, but had to give it up because of the cannon bangs. He said financial desperation forced him to start growing cannabis.

Detective Sergeant Fergal Foley said the cultivation of the cannabis was the most sophisticated operation of its kind seen in west Cork.

Bolger built a bunker in an overgrown area of his lands. In it he created two rooms, linked by a hallway. One room was used for germination of cannabis plants. The other was used for cultivating plants to maturity.

Advanced hydroponics, heat regulation, watering and a lighting system revolving around the plants to give an even quality of light were all used in the cultivation.

The street value of the cannabis plants at the time of the garda drugs search was at least €50,000. The charge to which he pleaded guilty was one of having drugs for sale or supply at a time when their street value exceeded €13,000, an offence which can carry a mandatory minimum sentence of 10 years and up to life imprisonment.

Judge Moran cited the McGinty case, which gives a precedent for a judge suspending the entirety of a sentence on such a charge.

Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/cannabis-grower-gets-suspended-sentence-122724.html#ixzz1H4I5Ftjt

Subject: RE: BS: Ian Bailey to be extradited
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 01:38 PM

They could send this guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Ian Bailey to be extradited
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 01:29 PM

An Irish CID spokesman said on the radio yesterday that there was no question of the force 'looking to interview anyone else concerning her death'.

That says they know it was him in a roundabout way.

Subject: BS: Ian Bailey to be extradited
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 12:32 PM

I think this decision is disgraceful.
There is not enough evidence to charge him, therefore according to Irish and English law he is innocent.
France has a different legal system, guilty until proved innocent, yet this crime was committed in Ireland not France, and as I understand it he is to be questioned by French Police, I am also under the impression, that the family of the unfortunate murder victim, have said that they wish to prosecute for civil damages, as I understand it, this means considerably less evidence of guilt is necessary.
To be extradited for questioning to another country is Bizarre, when there is not sufficient evidence OF GUILT according to the Irish DPP for a prosecution.what the hell is going on ?