2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine (EU)

Subject: RE: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 03:21 PM

Michae Savage was banned from Great Britain for political reasons.

Oh, really? The evidence I've seen is that he was banned because he was a charlatan.

Subject: RE: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: pdq
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 02:59 PM

For those who don't know, talk show host Michael Savage is actually Dr. Michael Weiner, the world's top authority on herbal medicine. He spent years in every tropical jungle collecting plants and talking to native people about their traditional cures. He has written around 30 books.

Michae Savage was banned from Great Britain for political reasons.

Subject: RE: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: michaelr
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 02:11 PM

How are my brains and common sense going to help me in distinguishing between harmful and non-harmful drugs?

By evaluating the available information and making an informed decision to use or not use. At least, that's how I use mine.

pdq -- home run? What's amazing??

Subject: RE: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 02:05 PM

Signed, the EU can fuck off.

Subject: RE: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 02:02 PM

You also cannot assume that a Big Pharma-produced drug that has gone through required testing and approval processes is SAFE...

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Of course, no tsting at all is much better than testing by the FDA.

Oh, ye nation of morons.....

Subject: RE: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: Amos
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 01:45 PM

"The government has the responsibility to see that all products sold in the country are safe and do what they are suppoesd to do. That applies to food, drugs, lawnmowers and even guns. The government does not have the right to tell us which reliable, serviceable products we can buy."


That's a huge responsibility. If you ask an "authority" from a pharma lab about the validity of tea-tree oil or apple-cider vinegar he'll move to have them outlawed. If you ask someone who has used them, you'll be told they are safe and effective.

Melatonin, for example, is a terrif aid to sleep when times are stressful. I have used it for years. WWhy should anyone tell me I can't? Especially someone who is dependent for his paycheck on purely allopathic methods and principals ?


A

Subject: RE: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: bobad
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 01:37 PM

"nothing is safe" ???

Subject: RE: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: pdq
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 01:22 PM

Subject: RE: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 01:11 PM

"I'm saying that nothing is safe and anything has the potential to harm you, so rely not on the government but on your brains and common sense."

How are my brains and common sense going to help me in distinguishing between harmful and non-harmful drugs?

Subject: RE: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: pdq
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 12:22 PM

Amazing.

A " homerun" by michaelr.

Subject: RE: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: michaelr
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 12:03 PM

LOL -- no, I'm saying that nothing is safe and anything has the potential to harm you, so rely not on the government but on your brains and common sense.

Subject: RE: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 11:42 AM

"The government has the responsibility to see that all products sold in the country are safe and do what they are suppoesd to do. That applies to food, drugs, lawnmowers and even guns. The government does not have the right to tell us which reliable, serviceable products we can buy."

So what's your problem, pdq? The question, up for discussion in this thread, is: have herbal medicines been tested? And in most cases the answer appears to be 'no' - therefore these substances should not be on sale.

"You also cannot assume that a Big Pharma-produced drug that has gone through required testing and approval processes is SAFE - as evidenced by numerous recalls, bans and class-action lawsuits."

I'm not disputing that, 'michaelr' but:

1) Most herbal medicines have not been tested at all.

2) No area of life is free from risk.

So what you appear to be saying is that because there is an element of risk associated with taking tested drugs we should all start taking untested drugs instead?

Subject: RE: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 11:20 AM

Some food for thought:

Bear gall bladders

Subject: RE: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: pdq
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 11:18 AM

A true "libertarian" believes in freedom of choice on almost all issues. The Libertarian Party is not the same thing. It was started by Ron Paul who is, essentially, a Bush-hating Texan. That was also true of Ross Perot. The Libertarian Party made an attempt to rope-in disperate groups for their power base but, essentially, failed.

About undisciplined thugs running around England, what could that possibly have to do with a political philosophy that has the same roots as the US Constitution.

As far as drug companies feeding your kid an untested drug, that is another absurd leap in logic. The government has the responsibility to see that all products sold in the country are safe and do what they are suppoesd to do. That applies to food, drugs, lawnmowers and even guns. The government does not have the right to tell us which reliable, serviceable products we can buy.

Subject: RE: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: michaelr
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 11:15 AM

You cannot assume that a herbal medicine is safer and/or more effective than a generic drug manufactured by a pharmaceutical company.

You also cannot assume that a Big Pharma-produced drug that has gone through required testing and approval processes is SAFE - as evidenced by numerous recalls, bans and class-action lawsuits.

Subject: RE: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 11:11 AM

Do some reading about 'herbal medicines' in the United States.
Rob, thanks for those words of insight.

They are not tested for safety, purity or efficacy.

Some have harmed people permanently.

They have been analyzed sporadically

   Some do not contain the 'herbal' on the label.
   Some contain 'herbals' not on the label.
   Some contain active pharmaceuticals (obviously not on the label.)
   Some contain lead, pesticides or other impurities.

One 'herbal' I know of is a hormone - melatonin. You'll find it among the vitamins and rose hips, but it shouldn't be there at all.

=============
PDQ, you are doing something quacks do. When someone questions the efficacy of a quack's 'medicine,' the quack starts talking politics instead. For example, when the hawkers of laetrile were challenged, they'd talk about 'freedom of therapy' rather than presenting evidence that laetrile worked. In time people figured out that laetrile was a cruel hoax, and we don't hear about it anymore.

You wrote "People must be free to drink the type of tea they want..."
That sounds sensible, but keep in mind that tea is a certain plant that has been cultivated and drunk for centuries. Putting any old dried plant in hot water doesn't make tea.

Under present U.S. law, I could snip up poison ivy, put it in bags and sell it as it herbal tea.

Subject: RE: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 11:10 AM

including virtually all Chinese, Ayurvedic, and African traditional medicine

Ya mean like Rhino Horn, Bear Gall Bladders & the like?

Yeah, I sure would hate too see them go............

Subject: RE: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 11:03 AM

Yes, 'pdq', but should you be able to feed your child an untested drug? What choice does the child have?

"People must be free to drink the type of tea they want, drive their favorite motor vehicle, think what they want and do what they want."

I'd like to show you my local park where people have scattered litter everywhere, sprayed grafitti everwhere, allowed their dogs to crap everywhere and regularly set fire to the grass thus destroying the wildlife. That's what a lot of them 'want to do' - should they be allowed to do those things?

The trouble with Libertarianism is that it's all selfish ME, ME ME! All rights and no responsibilities. Please keep it over your side of the Atlantic!

Subject: RE: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: pdq
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 10:45 AM

There is another thread which attempts to trash "libertarian" thinking, but the author knows nothing about the subject.

This is a perfect example of "liberty", the concept which "libertarian" thinking is based.

People must be free to drink the type of tea they want, drive their favorite motor vehicle, think what they want and do what they want. The government should stop micro-managing everyone's lives and do basic government duties.

If someone is selling the gall bladder from a poached bear, he should be prosecuted and sent to prison. That is not a matter of "liberty", it is one of criminality.

The government may have a role in seeing that the product is pure and properly represented, but not in determining what people can buy, eat, drink or do.

Subject: RE: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 10:13 AM

I'm with Shimrod!


"Thousands of years" of non-western "medical knowledge" (vis the OP) says that ground up rhino horn is a great aphrodisiac...presumeably because of its phallic appearance.

And loads of other similar bullshit for which there is as much evidence as there is for astrology or crystal healing...ie zilch!

I'm not saying that some *herbs* aren't effective remedies against some things (after all, many...most possibly) pharmaceutical products are derived from what were initially plant products.

From what I can see of the legislation, all they're trying to do it to ensure that any product that makes health claims has gone through testing to (a) substantiate the claims (b) to evaluate side effects and (c) to ensure it's safe.

If I'm going to take *anything* to cure or alleviate symptoms of a problem I'm having, I want it to be tested. The fact that some alternative medicine branch has been peddling its effectiveness for "thousands of years" (vis the rhino horn) cuts no ice with me at all. Sorry...won't be signing.

Subject: RE: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 10:04 AM

I would not take any drug which had not undergone full safety testing and controlled, randomised clinical trials for efficacy. And I CERTAINLY wouldn't give an untested drug to a child!

Yes, I know that only the big drug companies can afford such testing but I don't see any alternative. There are already strict laws about what you can and cannot claim - for example you cannot claim that a cosmetic product can cure or treat a particular skin condition without full safety and efficacy testing. Similarly you will notice that your local herbal medicine emporium is careful not to make specific medical claims for any of their products (because they cannot substantiate such claims).

You cannot assume that a herbal medicine is safer and/or more effective than a generic drug manufactured by a pharmaceutical company. This is an area bedevilled by myths, bullshit, misunderstandings and the 'snake oil' mentioned above.

Subject: RE: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 09:46 AM

I've signed - another gross breach of our rights.

Subject: RE: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: Chris Partington
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 09:05 AM

...and the snake oil.

Subject: RE: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 08:29 AM

Ah - but getting the seeds....

Subject: RE: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 08:04 AM

What complete and utter bollocks.

No one can ban herbs. You can grow them yourself.

Subject: RE: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 07:40 AM

Signed.

Subject: RE: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 07:24 AM

I wonder. can't this be claimed to be racist? A breach of EU Human Rights? or something?

Subject: 2 Days to Save Herbal Medicine
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 05:58 AM

For those who may find this campaign of interest. I have signed and would encourage others to do so too:

"In 2 days, the EU will ban much of herbal medicine, pressing more of us to take pharmaceutical drugs that drive the profits of big Pharma.

The EU Directive erects high barriers to any herbal remedy that hasn't been on the market for 30 years -- including virtually all Chinese, Ayurvedic, and African traditional medicine. It's a draconian move that helps drug companies and ignores thousands of years of medical knowledge.

We need a massive outcry against this. Together, our voices can press the EU Commission to fix the directive, push our national governments to refuse to implement it, and give legitimacy to a legal case before the courts. Sign on the right, then forward this campaign to everyone, and let's get to 1 million voices to save herbal medicine:"

http://www.avaaz.org/en/eu_herbal_medicine_ban/?cl=1042212480&v=8982