BS: Honda generator batteries

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 04:00 PM

Wisdom comes with advanced age, but only if you keep living it up.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: gnu
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 03:24 PM

JiK... "although having a little air circulation under the battery will minimize condensation and dampness that can degrade concrete."

Jaysus Keeeeriste! Do you know and think of EVERYTHING? That wouldn't have even occured to me! Thanks... and the same to everyone who has posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 03:13 PM

gnu -

You'll find trickle chargers labelled as "motorcycle battery chargers" or occasionally as "maintainers" that are (according to claims) intended for long term connection to "maintain" a battery, like over the winter when you don't ride your cycle much. It's debatable whether they're really that much better than the regular auto chargers, but they're smaller and should do the job for you.

The "maintainer" style aren't much good for bringing a low battery up, since they generally show about 2 amp maximum charging capacity. They'll get the job done, but could take several days to do an initial charge on even a decent sized motorcycle battery. (Lots of those cycle batteries come "dry" and you have to add the water and charge them before using.)

Many of the little ones have screw holes in a flange so that you can mount them on the wall near where you keep the bike (or on the bike?), and no "carry handle," and some don't even have a light to tell you if they're on/connected. Fancier ones, not much different in price, may have two or three status lights that tell you 1. if it's plugged in, 2. if the battery is connected, 3. if the battery's connected reverse polarity, and maybe one or two other functions.

The decent "auto battery chargers" often allow you to select 6 or 12 volts, show a maximum charging capacity of 8 to 12 amps or so, often have a "charging rate" ammeter to show how much is coming out at any given time, and may have a "hot shot" setting for "starting" a car with a very low battery that may put out anywhere from 30 to 80 amps. Most of them will claim a "trickle charge" ability for keeping a battery up, and "intelligence" that decides automatically when to taper down to that. One in this type likely will run closer to $40 to $60, although "bargains" sometimes do pop up in the ads.

For long-term "charge maintenance" most battery makers recommend a "cycled" charge where the maintainer senses battery voltage and only applies its own when the battery drops off a little, or a "timed cycle" that applies a little higher voltage for a while and then lets the battery "settle" for a different time. Most "not-very-intelligent" chargers/maintainers just drop the charger voltage back to around 12.8 to 13.4 V (from a higher voltage during charging) when the current the battery is taking drops to 1 or 2 amps.

An ammeter is pretty much useless during the maintenance trickle, since the current level is too low to register on the ones commonly used. It's of some use when you're charging a low battery since you can watch the needle drop and guess how much you've accomplished. Most newer designs just use LEDs for "status indicators" and the new ones without a meter may do a better job, although the "specs" and "manual" that come with any of them almost never tell you what you need to know to tell how good a given one is.

As to putting the battery on a board, manufacturers all say it's unnecessary. Old batteries had cases made of pitch/tar that could discharge some without an insulator (board) under them, and some old ones "spit acid" or "ooze acid vapor" and wood is more resistant to the acid than most other things that might be around. The board is not necessary with any modern battery for protecting the battery from discharge, although having a little air circulation under the battery will minimize condensation and dampness that can degrade concrete.

A better solution than the board would be a real "battery box" like many boats (and campers) use, but it may be impossible to find one small enough to be really suitable for a keep-alive battery of the size you really need. If you add an external battery as a replacement for the one in the welder you can use almost anything that's "big enough," and you might choose one big enough to fit into one of the battery box sizes generally available. "Too big" a battery probably won't hurt anything, although a bigger size (within reason) won't really affect how long one lasts by very much and the price does go up for bigger ones in the same style.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 02:16 PM

But can it beat you at checkers?

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: gnu
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 02:03 PM

As opposed to a regular charger. These, near as I know, will sense a battery's present state of charge and speed up charging in the initial stage, lessen as the battery approaches full charge, and maintain the charge when the battery is at full charge.

Near as I know.

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: gnu
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 01:23 PM

Sandy... it's sealed. The solar jobby is $140 reg.

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 01:21 PM

intelligent is a relative term.
I mean, intelligent when compared to what or whom?

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: gnu
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 01:18 PM

Oh... yeah... "intelligent" battery charger sale this week at Crappy Tire... $20... I'll have me one on the morrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 01:16 PM

gnu, check out motorcycle and lawn tractor batteries as they may fit. They won't have much reserve capacity but if maintained at a proper and constant float voltage they will probably supply all the kick that you need. There are also batteries designed for emergency lighting that supply 6 or 12 volts in a smaller package. You should find them at most electrical supply stores. Canadian Tire offer a 15 watt solar charger, often on sale for less than $100, but a 2 amp trickle charger is much less if you have a place to plug it in. I would be tempted to shitcan the Honda battery and extend the wiring to an external one. If you want the generator to be portable you could always use the manual start.
Properly maintained lead-acid batteries should last for much longer than 2 years if they are not deeply discharged and the fluid level is maintained above the plates.

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: gnu
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 01:15 PM

I'm still setting in on a board.

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 12:38 PM

I don't think the concrete one is true these days. See here for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: gnu
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 11:37 AM

Indeed... I will set it on a board.

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: EBarnacle
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 08:15 AM

Oh, yeah, don't let the battery or genset sit directly on concrete. For some reason, this encourages discharge.

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: gnu
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 07:37 AM

The battery compartment is small and the Honda battery "just" fits. I am going to try to find one today just for interest sake but I kinda doubt it. I do have a spare battery that will do the job but I'll have to set it on the floor next to the genie. The remote start is an add-on that I didn't get. The genie does not remain connected to the emerg panel... it's manual switching with a plug-in cable connection.

G... the solar powered trickle charger will definitely be looked into.

If I left anything out... late night... late start.

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 05:55 AM

I have two solar powered trickle chargers, and they work just fine, as long as the battery is healthy. Then again, poor batteries don't work with anything really. Remember that nornal lead acid batteries, are only good for 2 years of maximum efficiency, after that they deteriorate. Many users who require total reliability, change them after 2 years as a matter of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 04:51 AM

As even gnu suggested, the best approach would be to have a mains powered trickle charger "permanently" (or semi-permanently) connected to the generator battery so that the battery is always at full charge when the line power goes off. This shouldn't require much more than running a fairly light gage wire pair from the charger to the generator battery (or to the generator "12V charging post?). Most "maintenance trickle chargers" only deliver a couple of amps, so AWG14 or even 16 GA wires should be adequate although I'd probably stuff in 10 GA, or perhaps 12, since derating some for DC current is a good idea but mainly just 'cause I tend to be a little conservative in such things.

As the generator appears not to be intended to be portable, my personal preference would be a plain ol' auto (or deep discharge boat?) battery outside the generator but nearby where it's easier to maintain, on a trickle charger and clipped in parallel with the generator's "built-in" battery. The builtins are usually wrapped up in fancy shrouds and stuff which is one reason they tend to use sealed "no-maintenance" ( = expensive) batteries. The much cheaper "boat/automotive" kind generally require a check on water levels & such at least occasonally, although only a little such attention should really be necessary.)

An external battery could also be used for an "emergency light" that turns on automatically when the mains go down (but should have a separate switch to turn it off if the generator starts without giving you an excuse to go futz with it). Based on some past experience - not necessarily very applicable to the current real world - I don't much care for "automatic stuff" that's supposed to do things in the dark where it's hard to see whether it's actually behaving itself. (Or maybe I just like to make it easy to fiddle with my stuff since I've had so many fun stuff bits to fiddle with over the years.)

If the existing setup doesn't maintain stable charge on the battery, the 2+ years is probably pretty close to expected life for most battery types I'd think would be likely in something like this. The replacement should last somewhat longer if consistent charging can be achieved, although assurances about how long anything will last are cheap and "disposable."

John

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 01:20 AM

If you use an automatic transfer switch it should be held energized by commercial mains power which will drop out (IE open circuit) when a power failure occurs. Another set of contacts ( break before make ) will connect the generator to all or part of your local distribution. There is usually a time delay when the commercial power returns to ensure stability before transferring back. If the switch does not break before make it is possible for the generator to feed back onto the power line so this isolation is a must. A 12kv to 110 volt stepdown transformer will step the 110 back up to 12kv and fry some poor lineman working on a supposedly dead line. This circuitry is not operated from your battery. There should only be a sensor circuit or relay telling your generator when to start. It will then probably connect through another relay operated by its ac output sending juice to the isolation switch. In all of this with the possible exception of the sensor circuit there should be no drain from the start battery. A trickle charger should hold the battery at its proper float voltage. If a battery is the right voltage and the poles properly connected any one should work providing that it fits in the available space.

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: EBarnacle
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 11:20 PM

JiK hasa a point. Almost all auto parts shops have THE BOOK, which all the equivalent and replacement parts for generics like batteries. There are also places like Batteries Plus which will rebuild if there is no other way.

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 08:16 PM

No gnu, I understand why you bought a Honda generator. My question was why the Honda generator has to have a Honda battery.

If your battery made a lot of noise, you'd have a problem with any brand of generator, I'd think, since the only noise they usually make is a sort of gugle while they vent the hydrogen and the flash-bang when it goes off.

The "Remote Start" is possibly a reason why the battery runs down when the generator doesn't run, since there has to be enough "life" always turned on to answer when the remote calls for a start.

In most areas, an "isolator" is mandatory for anything wired into the house (and should be required everywhere), and most of them also require a separate "keep alive" voltage with some drain, and may have been wired off the generator battery. The isolation relay needs to switch before the generator starts, but after the mains go down, because if it was an outside short that killed the mains - or something shorted when the ice took the line down - it might also blow the generator before the relay powers up and flips. (The isolator, assuming you have one, might not be Honda? "House equipment" makers like CH et.al. make a lot of them.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 07:33 PM

Serviced locally... Hence the cost of service?

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: gnu
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 07:19 PM

"The question of WHY you "have to buy it from Honda" needs some explanation..."

Quiet. Eco-throttle. Cold start tecnology. Remote start. Serviced locally.... like I said, it ain't commercial use... it's for firing up a house that's down, winter or summer.

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 06:37 PM

If it's a "standby generator" it may need some drain from the battery for the "power failure" circuit to start up when needed. Even if you're not using it that way, there may still be "keep alive" functions that drain the battery for some reason that Honda thinks are "important."

Old people, and other seriously handicapped who need mobility aids will completely understand the complaint.Scooters, power chairs, and the like all use "exotic" batteries that can be difficult to find and "unexpectedly expensive."

A common and relatively inexpensive work-around is a "trickle charger" like what some use to keep motorcycle batteries alive - if it's a 12V battery. A decent one shouldn't cost more than about $20 at Walmart (or another less embarrassing place), although you could look around at the auto parts places and possibly find something "more versatile" at about the same price.

This only works if there's a single 6V or 12V battery of conventional kinds, and most "mobility machines" run off a couple in series (12V x 2 = 24V) or for big stuff that resembles a golf cart, 6 x 6V in series (36 V) is common, and a few even use 90V.

For mobile devices the higher price is partially explainable by the need for "spill proof" features, and the batteries generallly are "gel type" that literally can't spill acid. Motorcycles generally use "wet" batteries, with spill resistant features. Presumably motorcyclists require only that you won't get a face full of acid while your friends have time to pick up your 2,000 lb machine when it lands on top of you in a ditch.

For small portable generators there might be a valid reason for spill resistance, but for those big enough to really have to have electric start it's a little difficult to envision tipping one over. Theres a broad middle-range though where it's a very good idea, even if you might conceivably be able to start it manually on a good day. (You never really need the generator on a good day.)

The question of WHY you "have to buy it from Honda" needs some explanation, but in some cases of configuration, size, capacity, etc, another brand may not be much cheaper even if you can find one. For others, there are a ridiculous number of configurations generably available and a more generic one might be less difficult to find than you'd guess.

A pair of little ones for a scooter, listed at $137 each at a half dozen different "scooter stores," came at $57 apiece about a month ago at the "we'll build any battery you need if it's not in stock" shop and was "off the shelf" in a standard design that met all the specs and fit perfectly.

The batteries were for the scooter that Lin drove into a 5" deep puddle of water, apparently to "see if it would float." It didn't. The old batteries were shot, and wouldn't charge after the blown controller was replaced. Unfortunately, the new batteries (with new controller) revealed that the motor is also crap, so the scooter's still "in maintenance" for now. The scooter shops sell the motor only as part of the complete transaxle ($380? list), but I may be able to find one as a separate component for about $100(?) if the scooter stays on my list of things to do. The batteries will fit the replacement scooter we got for her, if I can keep them alive until it needs them. (The "blown scooter" sells for about $900 - mail order only, from Walgreens or Sams, although the place where we got it went out of business. Repairs are getting marginally cost-effective but I can screw with it indoors instead of mowing the lawn when it's 106F outside.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: gnu
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 06:27 PM

There is no flow from the primary panel. There cannot be. It is an emergency panel feed from the genie. As far as a short, if there was a short in the feed to the battery charging system, the battery woulda died long before 2 years and 2 months in service.

The deal is that that the Honda charging system is point zero fuck all while the unit is running. It will charge the battery if it is being operated 8 hours a day MINIMUM. That is, commercial use. NOBODY buys a Honda like this one for commercial use because they do NOT need or want the features that Honda sells these genies for at such a HIGH price. It's guys like me that want the features but it's guys like me they want to sell their EXPENSIVE batteries to that last until two months after the warranty is over because of the shit charging system.

Did I mention I am pissed off?

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: EBarnacle
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 06:09 PM

You may have a short somewhere in your system. Modren battries should hold a charge better than that. All else failing, don't sweat the state of charge. Just start it when you need it. The system, if it is hooked into yer main system, should top off on its own and run when there's no outside power coming in.

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: gnu
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 05:46 PM

999... hahahahahaha! GREAT one!

EB... yes, there is a pull start cord. Ever Honda couldn't fuck that one up.

Crappy Tire has a charger on sale this week for $20. Worth a shot.

JtS... better from Honda... yeah, I woulda thought so too... especially for the price I paid. But, there were a number of reasons (features) I paid 3 times what I could have bought an el cheapo for. Still, the shit charging sustem really pisses me off.

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 05:30 PM

Fit an isolation switch, for when it's on standby. A decent battery will hold it's charge for some time

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 05:20 PM

A generator with a battery? What? electric start? You live like a king you do! LOL

Can you get an inverter and keep the battery charged from your house current?


Buyer beware I guess. I would have expected better from Honda.

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: EBarnacle
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 05:16 PM

Does the genset have manual starting?

EB, one handedly

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 05:15 PM

He can't get his hand off either.

Subject: RE: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 05:08 PM

What's the connection between your arm, and your foreskin g?

Subject: BS: Honda generator batteries
From: gnu
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 04:22 PM

If you buy a Honda generator, be aware that ya gotta run it for two days to charge up a nearly depleted battery and that the battery will steadily deplete if yer not running it at least six hours a shift or you can cough up $173 + tax in Moncton and that they retail for $203 + tax normally. Now, you can charge it but you need a charger... and even that is not a guarantee that the battery will be okay.

And, no, ya can't buy a battery that will "fit". Ya gotta buy a Honda Battery or connect one externally.

Fuckin piss me off! A Honda generator doesn't have a decent charging system and nobody else's batteries will fit and they charge and arm and a foreskin for them. Arrrggggghhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!