BS: Killed for Being Black? #2

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 05:31 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Mod removes defense, leaves attack
From: beardedbruce - PM
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 05:15 PM

The post in question was between 8:05 and 8:23 AM, I believe.
--Pull up your socks, Bruce, and lower your voice. Your shouting is making this thread all about you. The other one was no longer close to the original topic, and this one is tilting in the same direction."




1. the post was deleted between those times, I think,

2. I had started another thread to complain about the bias show by Mods. THIS is not the place to have that discussion., but I see you want to be sure it is NOT discussed.

3.
As long as Greg F. is allowed to post attacks, I will continue to post the reasons I think he is scum.

The following is from the thread where he proved just how much a scumbag he is:


"Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F. - PM
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:00 PM
...

Beardie is also the guy that, in the thread about cash only for second-hand goods, wanted us to know that the sponsor of the bill was a Dumb Ni--er.
...

If this is the kind of person who encourages supporting OWS, I fail to see why ANYONE should give them any support whatsoever.

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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F. - PM
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:31 PM

For Max and Beardie's benefit, from the archives:

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: pdq - PM
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 07:37 PM

Just for the record, the idiot behind this bill is a member of the Louisiana House of Representitives.

He is Black and a Democrat."





THIS is who the Mod is favoring. Someone who reads "He is Black and a Democrat." and says it is the same as " a Dumb Ni--er.", and then falsely claims someone stated that.

I have a right to clear my name- the Mod's deletion prevents that.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: bobad
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 05:24 PM

I wonder if the fact that Zimmerman's father is a retired judge might have something to do with the "gentle" way he's been treated?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 05:24 PM

Mod,

I had posted to a new thread because this was a new topic- the Mod who deleted my post has made it one. The topic here deserves dicussion WITHOUT the additional burden of this unfair action distracting, but that action DOES deserve discussion.



Subject: BS: Mod removes defense, leaves attack
From: beardedbruce - PM
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 05:11 PM

I would like to protest that some Mod has removed my defense, but left Greg F. 's attack on my in the thread. This is taking sides, and the person does not deserve to be a Moderator .

Subject: RE: BS: Mod removes defense, leaves attack
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 05:15 PM

The post in question was between 8:05 and 8:23 AM, I believe.

--Pull up your socks, Bruce, and lower your voice. Your shouting is making this thread all about you. The other one was no longer close to the original topic, and this one is tilting in the same direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 05:15 PM

McGrath: yes, it's up to the state to prove otherwise. See my link above: The [Legal] Case To Be Made Against George Zimmerman. What one hopes is that the state (and their local representatives) will really pursue all available evidence (including, but not limited to, witness reports) and make good use of it.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: BS: Mod removes defense, leaves attack
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 05:11 PM

I would like to protest that some Mod has removed my defense, but left Greg F. 's attack on my in the thread. This is taking sides, and the person does not deserve to be a Moderator .

"Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: Greg F. - PM
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 08:47 PM

Not at all- you can thank Bruce for closing down the previous thread."

My explanation, and comments were deleted.

I OBJECT TO THIS KIND OF ACTION.

PLEASE put it back, so MY side can be heard.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 04:47 PM

So have I got it right? If you shoot an unarmed person on the street in Florida and claim it was in self defence, you walk free unless there are witnesses to contradict you?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 04:37 PM

George's father spoke well on television today, my heart goes out to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 02:02 PM

I thought the main point being made about the Sarasota case was that it wasn't a media sensation, even before trial, for reasons we are invited to imagine.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 01:47 PM

Spaw's got it. That's the core of it. Of course several other details could be added to demonstrate why this case is of particular interest.

Yes, the process of "trying the case" in the press/internet is problematic, given the way the evidence trickles out and is liable to the biases of those who present it (to say nothing of the biases of those who hear it).

It's clear (at least one hopes!) that there is relevant evidence that is not currently public.

However,

It's the contrast between the two cases Spaw outlines that causes (some) people to be paying such close attention: the bottom line question is whether the evidence and the process are being handled fairly and appropriately. Conflicts among statements made by those in the process (the police chief, and others) cause this question. And, in the history of American jurisprudence there are historical precedents of miscarriage of justice as a result of bias against African Americans. It behooves us to watch closely and keep pressure on the side of justice.

Questions...

Justice for Trayvon Martin: Questions (Jonathan Capeheart, Washington Post)

The killing of Trayvon Martin: More questions (Jonathan Capeheart, Washington Post)

Trayvon Martin: The 5 Key Unanswered Questions (ThinkProgress)

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 01:28 PM

Desert Dancer comes through, AGAIN!
However, that being said, no matter how much evidence or proof posted, there are those on here who insist that others share their 'enlightened liberated' hates, and will NOT step out of their preconditioned prejudicial boxes, until it bites them in the ass...and when that happens, they only hate the lion's teeth they just backed into!...and then they ennoble that hatred and prejudices to elevate themselves as a lofty member of some antiquated political identity to delude themselves with!

..or even this wonderful ascription of delusion:
"Progressive, advanced, avant-garde, broad, broad-minded, catholic, enlightened, flexible, free, general, high-minded, humanistic, humanitarian, indulgent, intelligent, interested, left of center, lenient, libertarian, magnanimous, permissive, radical, rational, reasonable, receiving, receptive, reformist, tolerant, unbiased, unbigoted, unconventional, understanding, unorthodox, unprejudiced"

My my, what a pompous oxymoron!!!!!

Peace and Love, (remember those days?)

Warmest Sane Regards to Becky in Tuscon,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 01:27 PM

Well, Spaw, its kinda like all those cases in the South back in the Good Old Days of not so long ago when Black folks tried to swim across a river carrying an anvil or a half-dozen log chains. Clearly a lapse of judgement on their part.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 01:15 PM

Bruce.....Your case listed goes exactly to the point.

In the case you list, a black man followed two white men for whatever reason. A confrontation took place. The white guys lay dead.   The black man was detained and then arrested. A case was developed; a trial took place. The prosecution presented evidence and the defendant had a lawyer to plead his own case. The jury declared the guy guilty.

Works for me......at least due process took place.

In the Martin case, a white man followed a black man (even though he was told by the police to NOT DO SO) for whatever reason and a confrontation took place. The black man lay dead. The white man was detained but NOT arrested. No case was developed, no trial has taken place. Due process has not taken place. The white man went happily on home within hours of the shooting taking his weaponn with him.

Does not work for me........no due process.

I guess the lesson here is that the black guy in the first case above should have claimed he felt threatened by the two white guys entering his neighborhood and claimed he was standing his ground.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 01:10 PM

Desert Dancer comes through, AGAIN!!...however, that being said, there are those, on here, that no matter how much evidence, and proof presented, just REFUSE to step outside their preconditioned prejudices!
Those who hate, are going to hate, until it bites them in the ass(but then they'll only hate the teeth, and discount the fact that they backed into the lion' mouth). It's a ploy to ennoble themselves, to sound 'relevant'...and an 'outstanding member of a political identity' regardless of the abandon of common sense!

Or this one:
"Progressive, advanced, avant-garde, broad, broad-minded, catholic, enlightened, flexible, free, general, high-minded, humanistic, humanitarian, indulgent, intelligent, interested, left of center, lenient, libertarian, magnanimous, permissive, radical, rational, reasonable, receiving, receptive, reformist, tolerant, unbiased, unbigoted, unconventional, understanding, unorthodox, unprejudiced"

..and what other platitudes they delude themselves with!

Peace and Love!
Warmest, Sane Regards to Becky in Tuscon!!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 12:58 PM

Bruce of the Beard: Seek professional help. Please.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 12:15 PM

Greg F states:

"Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: Greg F. - PM
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 08:47 PM

Not at all- you can thank Bruce for closing down the previous thread."



My post defending myself has been removed- WHY???

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 12:13 PM

I note MY comments about the previous thread being shut down have been removed. I am glad that the Moderator does not allow people to defend themselves from lying racist scum, but leaves the original lie here without comment.


If this is what MUDCAT has become, you all deserve people like Greg F.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 12:03 PM

What's more, the "message" of the Z-M case (however the facts turn out) is that if you're a young black man walking in a middle-class gated community, you may be shot and killed by a racist white man acting for the neighborhood, who'll go free because of a controversial new gun law.

The "message" of the C-K-T case (again regardless of the details) is that if you're an innocent person who blunders, perhaps drunkenly, into a high-crime area in the middle of the night, you may be shot and killed by a sociopathic criminal.

Now, from the perspective of newspaper sales, Web hits, and ad revenues, which story is more interesting? Which "has legs"?

There are dozens of murders every day. The national media will go with the one they think is most likely to grab your attention and get your dough.

That's capitalism and a free press. Nobody said either is perfect.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 11:58 AM

It is a part of this topic, and should be available and NOT removed by the Mod., IMO

As for MY postings, MOST have been in defense of myself from Greg F attacks on ME, not my posts.

Bobert,

IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ME DEFENDING MYSELF, THEN YOU CURB THAT LYING RACIST.

And yes, Bobert, I AM yelling at you.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: meself
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 10:20 AM

I think I can explain: in that case in Florida, a young Black man who killed two Whites was arrested tried and convicted; in the other case, a White man who killed a Black boy was briefly arrested, then given his gun back and sent home without being charged. By juxtaposing these two cases, I'm sure BB was suggesting that there may be an element of racism in the handling the latter case.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 09:08 AM

Per BB "THIS [above] IS SIGNIFICANT TO THE DISCUSSION HERE!!!!!! "

Oh yes? How and why, exactly, Bruce?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 09:00 AM

I find it interesting, bb, that you go months without posting and along comes an issue about guns and the rights of mostly white people and you come here with multi-postings which in themselves are the favorite tactic of those on the right to shut down discussion... Same during the mad-dash-to-Iraq days... Tons of postings... The shotgun approach... If you have an opinion, fine... But quantity isn't going to make your opinion anymore correct...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 08:46 AM

Bruce- Get help. Please.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 08:31 AM

I guess we can only discuss what the Moderator wants us to.

Waiting now to be told what I am supposed to be thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 08:28 AM

"SARASOTA, Fla. (AP) — In a case that generated blaring tabloid headlines in the U.K. press, a Florida teen is facing life in prison without parole for murdering two young British tourists who got lost and wandered into a housing project where their convicted killer lived.
After an eight-day trial, a jury on Wednesday convicted 17-year-old Shawn Tyson of two counts of first-degree murder in the shooting of James Cooper, 25, and James Kouzaris, 24, last April.
The two men were on a three-week Sarasota holiday and spent an evening drinking when they got lost."

"Witnesses testified that Tyson told them he saw two "crackers" — a derogatory term for white people — walking through the neighborhood and that he intended to rob them. The tourists said they didn't have any money and begged Tyson to let them go home. The men also told Tyson they were lost.
"Since you ain't got no money, then I have something for your ass," Tyson recounted to a witness, then added that he shot the men several times.
Hallett said friends and family were thankful for the support provided by Sarasota police and municipal officials.
And Davis, who attended the trial, said although he was satisfied with the verdict, it rang hollow.
"Ours is a life sentence with no chance of parole for a broken heart and a shattered soul," Davis said.
Both men also said they were "dissatisfied" with the lack of support or condolences from the United States government and President Barack Obama in particular.
"We would like to publicly express our dissatisfaction at the lack of any public or private message of support or condolence," Joe Hallett, a friend of the two victims said."


THIS IS SIGNIFICANT TO THE DISCUSSION HERE!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 08:23 AM

REMOVING POSTS THAT POINT OUT SOMETHING YOU DON'T LIKE IS NOT FAIR, MODERATOR.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: Wesley S
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 08:17 AM

The internet chat rooms are not going to get to the bottom of the case. That's why this needs to be in front of a jury. And a real judge.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 08:13 AM

"Spike Lee apologized on Wednesday for retweeting a tweet thought to contain Trayvon Martin shooter George Zimmerman's address that turned out to be an elderly couple's residence.
Lee wrote:
I Deeply Apologize To The McClain Family For Retweeting Their Address. It Was A Mistake. Please Leave The McClain's In Peace. Justice In Court
Lee retweeted the erroneous information to his 240,000-plus followers last Friday. The original tweet--posted the same day by Marcus Davonne Higgins, a 33-year-old from Los Angeles, using the Twitter handle @Maccapone--was sent to several celebrities including Lee, 50 Cent and LeBron James. Higgins urged friends on Facebook to "REACH OUT & TOUCH" Zimmerman.
The couple--David McClain, 72, and his 70-year-old wife Elaine--had been living in fear after their Sanford, Fla., address, via Lee, was widely disseminated.
Lee's tweet sparked outrage among critics who said he was encouraging vigilante justice."


http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/spike-lee-apologizes-george-zimmerman-address-tweet-015514123.html

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 08:02 AM

IMO the moderators are trying to deal with a difficult situation, but do not always get it right.

I don't know if I could do a better job.


And, (again IMO) They are Us.

But too many here keep silent when the person who needs to be controlled is in support of what is believed, and attacking someone that disagrees with what we want to be the truth.



" for freedom of speech to mean anything, it must protect those with whom we vehemently disagree."

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 07:10 AM

Bobert,

"Why should we allow people to sabatouge our community???"

I ask that myself, but it seems that self-defense is prohibited if one is in the minority.

Sort of the subject of the previous and this thread, isn't it??

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 12:10 AM

Be patient, and wait for the truth to come out.
Remember the time that folk music used to be part of the 'peace/love movement?...Look what politics has done to a lot of you.

Peace!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 10:42 PM

That's what I'm talking about, b-bad...

I was accused of trying to "lynch" (???) Zimmerman for asking those same questions...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: bobad
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 09:55 PM

Police surveillance video obtained by ABC News shows no blood or bruises on George Zimmerman, who allegedly shot and killed Florida teenager Trayvon Martin. The video puts Zimmerman's account of events into question.

The video shows Zimmerman arriving at the Sanford Police Department in a police cruiser.

Zimmerman told police last month that he had followed Martin on foot, but eventually lost sight of Trayvon and turned around to walk back to his SUV. That is when, according to Zimmerman's account, Martin approached him from behind and confronted him.

Zimmerman said that Martin punched him in the nose, knocking him down, and then began banging his head into the ground. That is when Zimmerman allegedly shot Martin.

The initial police report noted that Zimmerman was covered in grass, and was bleeding from the back of the head and nose. Zimmerman's lawyer has also said that his nose was broken in the incident.

But the surveillance video shows no blood or bruises on him. It is unclear whether the medical attention Zimmerman reportedly received would have stopped him from bleeding.

The lead homicide investigator on the Trayvon Martin case recommended George Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter, but was denied.

Chris Serino, the Sanford investigator, filed an affidavit on the night of crime saying he was unconvinced of Zimmerman's account. However, the state attorney's office told Serino not to press charges against Zimmerman because there wasn't enough evidence against him.

Martin's parents and lawyer have said that Zimmerman, who is still free, should be arrested for pursing Martin despite police urging Zimmerman not to follow him on the 911 tapes.

The Raw Story

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 09:08 PM

I didn't even know that the previuos thread had beenclosed but if it was the result of BB, then shame on the moderators...

I mean, he only comes here these days to defend war and guns and if he has some fomula for ending the conversation then that is a sad commentaty on the 1st amendment rights of us all... Why should we allow people to sabatouge our community???

I know that bb said I was all for "lynching" Zimmerman for having the audasity to ask questions... I found that highly offensive but didn't ask bb to be censored...Wouldn't have thought to do so...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 09:08 PM

The media has affected all of us. So far in this thread I have seen the most intelligent people I know continue to bitch.

In simple terms, don't fuck off, but please do calm down.


I was trying to post

"Greg and Bruce, you are both so wrong about each other"

Then the thread was gone. Gentlemen, . . .


PS Bruce is one fine poet, and Greg is one fine thinker, although at times his elocution lacks verve, as does the poet's.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 08:51 PM

Passionate opinions are not banned. Personal attacks for those opinions are banned.

A moderator made the choice to close the previous thread rather than to delete messages. This new thread is to continue the discussion of the case.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 08:47 PM

Not at all- you can thank Bruce for closing down the previous thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 08:12 PM

Why has this thread been reopened ?

It was closed down mid morning. This is going down the same route.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 07:17 PM

Here's my question yet again...

What if Martin had shot and killed Zimmerman claiming self defense???

That's the question that all these self righteous NRA-stand-your-grounders ***refuse*** to answer but...

...that's the real story here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 06:55 PM

""Police should have simply arrested Zimmerman and let a judge sort it out.

Zimmerman has not been arrested because he told police he acted in self-defense, and then-Chief Lee said police did not have probable cause. Florida Statute 776.032 expressly prohibits police from arresting someone who had a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm. Police may investigate, the statute says, "but the agency may not arrest the person" without probable cause.

[e-mail] or 407-650-6394""

So, if Trayvon's punch and the resultant contact between the back of his head and the ground had killed Zimmerman, and unarmed Trayvon had claimed self defence against a man with a gun, he would not have been arrested?

YEAH, RIGHT!!

Anybody seen any flying pigs around Sanford?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 04:32 PM

Thank you, Becky (Desert Dancer)for a clear and informative post.
Like I said before, people, who are interested, should wait for more information before jumping to conclusions, based on biases, both political, and skewed media reports.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 04:27 PM

BS: Killed for being black? Florida today - previous thread, now closed.

The thread was closed just as I was composing a post this morning... here 'tis:

A couple items from the "Not doing it right" files on the search for justice:

(1)

Regarding the bounty for George Zimmerman, offered by the "New Black Panthers": the group does exist, and the Southern Poverty Law Center defines it as a hate group.

New Black Panthers leader who offered bounty jailed in Georgia (Chicago Tribune): "Hashim Nzinga, 49, was arrested on Monday at the office of
his probation officer and charged with being a felon in possession of a firearm."

(2)

A street address purported to be George Zimmerman's that has been distributed in protest against him is actually that of an unrelated couple in their 70s. (How Not To Protest The Killing Of Trayvon Martin, from Ta-Nehisi Coates at the Atlantic)

---

On more the more rational front, Coates has a good (if not encouraging) post, The [Legal] Case To Be Made Against George Zimmerman, about the difficulty in overcoming a "self-defense" plea in any situation, since it is based on the state of mind of the defendant at the time.

And, expanding our information, there was more pursuit of evidence right after the killing than I had seen mentioned before, and the lead investigator was pursuing a manslaughter charge before the case was handed over to the state:

What happened right after Trayvon Martin's shooting? (CBS News)

Trayvon rumors abound, but here are facts (Orlando Sentinel)

I got those links from NPR, which has a few others, as well.


~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: BS: Killed for Being Black? #2
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 02:00 PM

For those who wish to continue on-topic.

Best,

Greg