BS: Bit of a moral/legal puzzle

Subject: RE: BS: Bit of a moral/legal puzzle
From: Penny S.
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 09:59 AM

I have called the police on their nice new non-emergency number (101) for advice, and been told I can do what I like with the tools. If taken to the nick they would probably just be thrown away. They have my details. I have an incident number. Sorted.

Thanks for the advice, folks.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Bit of a moral/legal puzzle
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 02:42 AM

Something of the sort happened to me once. After notifying the guy twice that he had left them and giving my phone number I did nothing further. I kept them with my things for the next several years and eventually started giving them away - eventually they were all gone. No worries.

Subject: RE: BS: Bit of a moral/legal puzzle
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 06:04 PM

Appropriate postage for heavy tools likely to be prohibitive, Art. Without wishing to rob Richard's mates of their fee it sounds like taking them to police seems a reasonable thing to do. We 'found' a load of stuff in our back garden one day - we knew very well how it arrived but could not say without getting an already troubled young man into more trouble. I put them in the back of the car and took them to the local nick - They asked no questions and, I am told, they were returned to theor owners.

Just say you found then in your bin cupboard. You could assume that they belong to said dodgey builder but who can confirm they are actualy his?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Bit of a moral/legal puzzle
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 05:22 PM

If the postman, as you said earlier, knows where he is, wrap the stuff up, put the appropriate amount of postage on the package (without an address), and ask the postman to deliver it. That way, it will be "officially" out of your hands and into his.

Subject: RE: BS: Bit of a moral/legal puzzle
From: Penny S.
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 04:50 PM

My current plan is to look for the police car when it pops into the village next and ask if they will take it. We don't have anything like a local nick any more, but a great big block near the Eurostar station.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Bit of a moral/legal puzzle
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 02:47 PM

Gosh, Richard. We haven't a clue!

Subject: RE: BS: Bit of a moral/legal puzzle
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 02:39 PM

I MUST support the idea of paying a solicitor for advice. Guess why?

Subject: RE: BS: Bit of a moral/legal puzzle
From: MarkS
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 12:24 PM

Can you turn them over to the local police as "found items." If the owner ever does show up you can refer him to the local police station to reclaim his goods.
They are out of your hair and you have generated a record as having make an effort to return them.

Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Bit of a moral/legal puzzle
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 11:42 AM

Presumable the man has committed enough fraud to be wanted by the police. Ask the police if they would like some tools with his fingerprints and perhaps his DNA on them.

What a warm glow we would get if the answer is "Yes."

Subject: RE: BS: Bit of a moral/legal puzzle
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 11:41 AM

Bert's idea is a good one. Give them to the police.

Subject: RE: BS: Bit of a moral/legal puzzle
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 11:06 AM

Or, you could ask a solicitor the appropriate course of action, if you don't want things to come back & bite you in the arse..

Subject: RE: BS: Bit of a moral/legal puzzle
From: Bert
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 10:40 AM

If you just want to get rid of them, you could drop them off at the local nick. If THEY make a fuss and won't take them, then insist that they charge him with fraud.

Subject: RE: BS: Bit of a moral/legal puzzle
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 10:11 AM

yeah, 20 odd years ago I lived in a shared house with Scots & Irish builders..

One of them did a sudden disappearance when rent was due,
leaving behind loads of gear in his room
that was probably nicked from building sites....???

Reminds me, one of his industrial drills with all the owners ID and serial numbers filed off
is still safely stored for his return in our cupboard under the stairs..

Subject: RE: BS: Bit of a moral/legal puzzle
From: Penny S.
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 09:59 AM

Cash Converters offer one third of their valuation for what they take. They'd probably laugh and offer less than a quid. I would feel ashamed to offer them to a charity. Unless it were* a charity involved in getting young people to do up places**, but even then, good tools are required to do a good job.

*Note Govian use of subjunctive.
**I realise I do have a contact for that sort of thing, but out of action at the moment, and possibly needing to have easily identified and strictly inventoried tools.***
*** Which has made me wonder if the guy wanted to get rid of his tools for some reason, in a place where no-one would look for them, because they had been used for some nefarious purposes.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Bit of a moral/legal puzzle
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 09:50 AM

Need to keep it in perspective...

Sounds like this dodgy tradesman has 'done a runner' with a substantial amount of your money
and just abandoned the tools because they are probably worthless old junk.

Best not to worry about it,
if the tools are any good just use them and not be bothered about him wanting them back...


Would a charity even accept them as donation ?

Cash Converters would most probably offer less than a tenner for the whole lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Bit of a moral/legal puzzle
From: Penny S.
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 09:50 AM

And I see from the Theft Act, that I need to have made reasonable steps to discover him. There is one more step I need to make to exhaust matters - see above.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Bit of a moral/legal puzzle
From: Penny S.
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 09:47 AM

Further information. I asked in the shop next door to his if they had a contact address for him, and they had not. They did have his mobile number. They also had a list of people who had paid him for furniture which was never delivered. They also knew that the electricity company had been trying to contact him, had arranged a meeting at the property with him, which he had not attended, and had had to effect an entry in order to disconnect the supply as he was in large debt to them.

That was when I decided to end the arrangement.

Odd addition. I was getting rid of some veneered chipboard and had it by my front door ready to go to the dump when he called for some money, and he said he could use it in mending his stable and would collect it in his Land Rover. I agreed. Weeks later, it was still there.

Reason for not asking a solicitor - cost exceeds value of goods. Hugely. As far as I am concerned they are mostly useless, and I'm trying to declutter.

It seems from the above that the position is what I suspected. I can't get rid of the stuff. Unless, possibly, when the decorators are about the current location so that I don't have to deal with him alone, I issue via text (if still active) an invitation to collect from the front of the property by a certain date, and he comes and gets everything. Or not.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Bit of a moral/legal puzzle
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 09:19 AM

Ask A Solicitor- not an internet café

Subject: RE: BS: Bit of a moral/legal puzzle
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 08:38 AM

Legally??? You more than likely do not "own" the tools...

Morally??? If the scammed you then heck with you making any effort to return them...

Suggestion: Find a safe storage place for them that is out of your way and put the entire episode out of your mind... If the bum decides one day that he wants his tools and gets a lawyer and you have disposed of them without obtaining "legal possession" then you will be victimized again by the jerk...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bit of a moral/legal puzzle
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 07:40 AM

Ah, the people's republic of New Ash Green. I know it well. So long as you are in England is all that matters. I am doubtful whether there is a sufficient act of abandonment for you to assert ownership by finding. If, however, he was to sue you in person for conversion you would have a counterclaim (and I think quite possibly a set-off) for the money he did not return.

More exciting is whether it would be theft. I think, technically, there is a risk that it might be but I would expect S 2(1)(c) of the Theft Act 1968 (look it up) as amended to afford you a defence.

Subject: RE: BS: Bit of a moral/legal puzzle
From: Penny S.
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 06:47 AM

New Ash Green, North-West Kent, UK

Subject: RE: BS: Bit of a moral/legal puzzle
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 06:44 AM

Which jurisdiction?

Subject: BS: Bit of a moral/legal puzzle
From: Penny S.
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 06:40 AM

In the bin cupboard by my front door repose an old tool chest, a couple of incomplete socket sets and a few old tools that don't fit.

I acquired these because they were left in my old place by the man who didn't fit the kitchen he had supplied and retained about £1700 I had given him for the work.

When I gave up expecting him to do anything without attempting to extract more money from me, I wrote to him ending the arrangement, asked him for a repayment, told him where his tools were and changed the locks.

I dropped a copy into his largely abandoned shop. He at some point picked it up and dropped it again without opening it. I left a copy at the old place in case the replacement fitter was there and he tried to get in. Examination of the electoral rolls showed no recent address for him, but did associate another surname with him. I also engaged the postman with this information, and he told me the man moved about a bit, he knew where he was, and would deliver a copy to his address. (Which I did not ask to know.)

He has not, over a year later, collected his tools. In a phone conversation earlier, when he said he thought I did not want him to do the work, and I pointed out that if I had changed my mind, I would have sought to return his tools, he had seemed uninterested in reclaiming them.

If I had seen him collecting all the stuff from his shop, I would have returned the tools in person, but he flitted without notice.

Do I now own the tools? Do I own them enough to include them in a yard or boot sale?

Penny