BS: Catholic teacher fired - supports gay marriage

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: ollaimh
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 10:54 PM

the law in canada is similar to britain, but we use human right codes. catholic schools are bound by them when they act as a public institution. if they take government money , as almost all do, they have to obey the charter of rights and freedoms and the humanrights codes, but even private schools are bound by employment law, and that is not an acceptable reason for dismissal--so far.

i beleve the abuse in the catholic churc\h is much worse than what is public. they have a very effective cover up ans brain washing and publicity campaiign. however that said, the anglican, and united churches are much the same--but without the ability to enact such a fart reaching cover up.

again for me, the genocied against native people in the murderous residential schools is an historic crime on a scale with the nazi holocoust and the institutions involved have no right to exist in any civilized society. soirituality is not in the institutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 01:26 PM

Joe, I think you are right. The 1998 seems more accessible. But maybe conservative Catholics have reason to prefer the newer one.

Comparing the two, it seems that the 1998 writer is more tranquil and confident. While the 2010 seems to be more combative, and judgmental of others. Each one seems a little closer that the other to the public persona of the reigning Pope of the time.

Of course these are just my impressions and the real differences in the texts are small.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 01:11 PM

I like the latest words the best but the old Latin words the really best and their translation. And how is that translated..certainly lighted lamps is lighted lamps and not love and justice or whatever they said...mg

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 01:17 AM

Thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 12:15 AM

Hi, Jack - follow this link:
http://www.whatifwejustsaidwait.org/1998missal.htm

It compares the text used from 1973-2011, with the approved 1998 text (rejected by Rome), with the text that was put into use in November, 2011. There's also a link to the entire 1998 text.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 09:01 PM

Sorry to read that mg. It is disheartening.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: mg
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 07:30 PM

The Mass they had since Vatican II was not something I liked...I had no complaints about the old liturgy at all or the old songs...it has been hideous to me ever since. Actually, I kept saying all the old versions as much as I could and what they have come up with recently it seems to me is more like the old version, which was better.

There are things I absolutely hate..along with idiocy about birth control and divorce and abuse etc...but things that should not be important but are. The priest I currently have will stop at any point in the Mass and comment as though it were a sports event..we are going in for a touchdown here...those awful chants of call and response that go on forever and ever and are totally tuneless and rhymeless. Most every song I have heard for the last 40 years or so..there is one I actually like though. They took something beautiful and made it ugly. People are hanging on by their fingernails.

Also, with every bit of Catholicism (not enough by far) in my soul, sinful as it is..I do not want certain people to be pope, includingthe present one. I am especially concerned about Cardinal Dolan. He seems to be a liar and a bully. The only one I am impressed with is Archbishop Martin of Dublin..he seems honest and straightforward and sensible. What an amazing piece of news..I have never seen that before..you expect them to not be overly much of either. So he can be pope and not Dolan, but Dolan is running for pope..mark my words mg

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 01:29 PM

I am with Richard Bridge on this one. He has described my position quite nicely.

I think that freedom of religion should be on a personal level and should draw a clear line at imposing ones beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 01:16 PM

First they took on the prayers used at Mass. In 1998, the English-speaking bishops had approved a very nice, literate translation of the Mass. Right-wingers pressured Rome about the text, and Rome had a secret committee prepare an entirely new translation, using convoluted, pretentious, churchy-sounding language and made-up words.

I am very interested in comparing these two. Are the texts available. What should I search under?

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 03:38 AM

The real problem is that the USA has no-fault dismissal built into its employment law.

It is however a scandal that the Supreme Court (of the USA) thinks that religion entitles one to discriminate. Our courts in the UK have come to the opposite conclusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 03:21 AM

I imagine that the nearer you are to the tragedies this institutuion brings quite unnecessarily to peoples lives, the more pissed off you get.

To be honest, I never gave a toss about the impact their no condoms rule had on AIDs in the third world. Couldn't give a stuff about overpopulation, or gay rights.

When I found out in my fifties, my cousin whom I grew up with spent his childhood being brutalised by priests - I think that's when I started wondering why so many nice people give them the time of day.

My cousins was such a nice little boy - and he shouldn't have spent that childhood in terror of these buggers. And his parents were so devout - in that simple loving Irish way. So trusting of those priests.

I certainly don't think any religious institution has the right to take away your legal constitutional rights. The law shouldn't give 'em an inch of leeway. they want respect. let them start earning it by acting with a bit of respect for others by thoroughly reforming themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 12:37 AM

It's increasingly tough to be a Catholic progressive these days. The conservatives are in a feeding frenzy, using the same scary tactics the "Tea Party Patriots" are using in government. Until about five or ten years ago, things like gay marriage and contraception were not emphasized - Time Magazine said the American Catholic Church had a "don't ask, don't tell" policy on homosexuality. Then the conservatives found they could gain power by picking on every little issue and forcing the bishops' hand on everything. And so began the Great Purge.

First they took on the prayers used at Mass. In 1998, the English-speaking bishops had approved a very nice, literate translation of the Mass. Right-wingers pressured Rome about the text, and Rome had a secret committee prepare an entirely new translation, using convoluted, pretentious, churchy-sounding language and made-up words.

Civil gay marriage should be a non-issue to the Catholic Church, since nobody's suggesting that the churches should be forced to officiate at gay marriages. Same with contraception in employee health insurance, since nobody's forcing anybody to use contraception. But the conservatives are putting heavy pressure on the bishops on these issues, and the bishops are giving in - I think they've been weakened by the mess they made of the child molestation scandal. I also think they're hiding behind other issues to attempt to move the light away from the molestation fiasco.

I'm on the board of a community organizing program that is heavily dependent on a grant from the Catholic Campaign for Human Development (CCHD). One of our projects is getting 2-1-1 telephone information service to direct people to social services in the area. Since somebody might call 211 and ask for abortion information, we can't use any Catholic money for the 211 project, and we can't even have information about our 211 project on our Website. The fact that 211 can also give information about alternatives to abortion, doesn't make any difference.

Our Annual Diocesan Appeal in Sacramento supports a number of charities that have Catholic roots, but no longer have an official connection with the Catholic Church. Sacramento's Francis House got its start at St. Francis Parish, and it provides wonderful services to homeless people. The longtime director of Francis House died recently, and was replaced by a Methodist minister who had spoken in favor of gay marriage and of the services provided by Planned Parenthood (although she opposes abortion). The diocese stopped funding Francis House this year. I wrote to our bishop and asked for a refund of my contribution - to his credit, he sent my check back. Still, I had been proud that my diocese supported formerly-Catholic charities that had opened their doors to everyone - and I can't have that pride any more.

And then there is the current attack on the nuns [although I see real hope in this, because the nuns aren't likely to give up easily]. It seems there's a new right-wing attack coming from the bishops every day, and it's disheartening.

Still, I'm not ready to leave. I still insist that this is my church, and I'm not leaving until they drag me out the door. I'm going to keep fighting until the end of my days. And hey, it isn't all bad. I can ensure that my home parish is good, and I've been quite successful at that. And I'm an associate member of the Sisters of Mercy, and I feel right at home with them.

And I still believe that in the long run, the forces of moderation will prevail and the right-wing idiots will shrink back into the woodwork.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 11:02 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 08:57 PM

In this instance it's rather unlikely that the church had any position on gay marriage that she could have been asked to agree to when she took the job. She's been in the job for 12 years, and paranoia about that is a very recent phenomenon.

This is a situation where the employer has suddenly required compliance to a newly adopted political campaigning position after the employee was in post. If Ratzinger Corporation can get away with it, presumably it's okay for Coors to insist that its employees join the KKK or else.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 08:56 PM

That is how the church works. If you believe in gay marriage, even if you don't express it in the classroom, off you go. If you rape little boys, no problem. Bishop seen on the beach with a woman, gone in a week. Covers up violent abuse of children, there forever and might be or have been made pope. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 08:22 PM

Jack my dear friend, I find little similarity to any of the churches and the teachings of Christ ... They don't get it and never will, it is their unjust teachings they follow and not the Lords because Christ would be the first to embrace all of his children

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 08:13 PM

Y'all make great points. But that doesn't make it right. All I am saying that claiming religious freedom to violate other people's freedom does not seem very Christian to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 07:48 PM

I'm afraid the school has every right to insist that their teachers toe the line faith-wise. It's a Catholic school and the teachers must therefore subscribe to Catholic principles. I personally support gay marriage, but if I went about declaring my views I could hardly expect a Catholic religion-based school to accept me on their staff. It's rather as if teacher in a Jewish school wanted to give cookery lessons for making pork sausages.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 07:29 PM

You might want to check the Supreme's 9-0 decision this past January regarding ministerial exemption. This will also affect the Catholic Bishops' recent lawsuit.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 07:22 PM

I know some people condemn the whole church for that but most don't. But I personally know people who were abused by Christian Brothers and the abuse was covered and went on for years.

But this example was about employment rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 06:44 PM

JtS... "At least to the degree that they themselves have been persecuted, yes."

Soooo... did you alert the police as to their crimes? Did they commit any crimes?

Not that I give two shits from Tuesday about any of it. Fact is, I don't believe half of what people say about Catholic Clergy sexual abuse. I do believe less than half and it's just awful. But I don't believe that every priest fucked every little boy.

I find the notion that the entire Church can be condemned based upon a relatively few transgressions to be ridiculous. As far as coverups, unacceptable. As far as outright damning of Cat'lic leaders, unacceptable. And, I would point out, I am not a religious man.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: EBarnacle
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 06:20 PM

Read the whole article.
1> She stated that she had personal differences with Church doctrine.
2> She stated that she has not and would not bring these differences into the classroom.
3> She was a good teacher.

When did freedom of thought and conscience leave the rights of Americans? She was in no way disrespecting the party line, just thinking for herself.

For this she gets punished?

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 06:11 PM

These Bishops have persecuted others?
At least to the degree that they themselves have been persecuted, yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 06:06 PM

These Bishops have persecuted others? Have you alerted the police?

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 05:28 PM

I realize that Olddude. I have no legal or even moral objection to what the principal of the school did.

It just irritates me when the Bishops claim to be persecuted even as they persecute others. It just seems, well, Un-Christian to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 05:19 PM

No, but they have the right - even in the US - to expect their employees to "follow the party line". Teachers at religion-based schools don't quite have the freedom of expression which might reasonably be expected in other jobs.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: olddude
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 05:19 PM

Here is the deal, when you sign on to a catholic school you agree to abide by their rules, they don't get taxpayer money .. as offensive as I find their position against gay people (believe me I do) they do have that right ...

more and more freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom from unjust search is going by the wayside. No one is Forced to teach in a catholic school .. me I wouldn't take a job there

Subject: BS: Catholic teacher fired.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 05:13 PM

I find this disturbing in light of the Bishops' claims that having their insurance pay for birth control is an infringement on their religious rights. Does their "religious freedom" really include deciding the freedom of others?

catholic-school-drops-teacher-for-gay-marriage-support