BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Jul 12 - 10:05 AM

""I'm not even venturing an opinion, but would like to hear what your THOUGHTS are...providing that you are able to think, instead of constantly bitching!""

What an absolutely marvelous way to persuade people to engage in sensible discussion!

First present no opinion of your own, next insult them with a blanket ad hominem attack (something which you roundly condemn in others), and finally accuse them of doing exactly what you yourself are doing.

TERRIFIC!! How can it possibly fail to elicit sensible and erudite responses?

As for ~""we dealing with an issue, and most of you guys are playing 'tit for tat', on who's the biggest shmuck.""~, well that's really funny. Anybody here remember the last time "Gone from Sanity" dealt with an issue?

Naah! I thought not.

It's too busy thinking up new ways to win friends and influence people.

Jesus wept!
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Jul 12 - 08:56 AM

I'm sorry to tell you this Mr. Bridge, but if someone is told by a Court to live with someone else, the Court is wrong. PET or CBT would be far more beneficial. That's why we in the US now have Veterans Courts.

Yes, 42,900,000 posts CAN be wrong. The Earth also orbits the Sun, no matter how many people believe otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 11:42 PM

Little Hawk, made some great points in addressing Rapparee's post about veterans, and such, and nobody addressed him, or Rapparee, who started the thread....you just went off yabbering about 'everything but'. Rap's and Hawk's we dealing with an issue, and most of you guys are playing 'tit for tat', on who's the biggest shmuck..OF PEOPLE WHO AREN'T EVEN AROUND ANY MORE!!...Jeez....Come on, is Folk, blues, bluegrass, booze and pot, making you completely stupid???..or is it politics, or YOUR politics???
I'm not even venturing an opinion, but would like to hear what your THOUGHTS are...providing that you are able to think, instead of constantly bitching!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 11:28 PM

In an admittedly not comprehensive search for material to uphold the charge of "stealth character assassin, working as a deadly duo..."this is the worst stuff I found. These are things I remember from the day myself. If anyone has specific information that confirms the charge I would love to hear it. Truly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Moyers

"After the resignation of White House Chief of Staff Walter Jenkins because of a sexual misdemeanor in the run up to the 1964 election, President Lyndon B. Johnson, alarmed that the opposition was framing the issue as a security breach, ordered Moyers to request FBI name checks on 15 members of Goldwater's staff to find "derogatory" material on their personal lives. Goldwater himself only referred to the Jenkins incident off the record. The Church Committee stated in 1975 that "Moyers has publicly recounted his role in the incident, and his account is confirmed by FBI documents." In 2005, Laurence Silberman claimed that Moyers denied writing the memo in a 1975 phone call. Moyers said he had a different recollection of the telephone conversation.

"Moyers also sought information from the FBI on the sexual preferences of White House staff members, most notably Jack Valenti. Moyers indicated his memory was unclear on why Johnson directed him to request such information, "but that he may have been simply looking for details of allegations first brought to the president by Hoover."

"Moyers approved (but had nothing to do with the production) of the infamous "Daisy Ad" against Barry Goldwater in the 1964 presidential campaign. That ad is regarded to be the starting point of the modern-day harshly negative campaign ad."

"Moyers helped to write the Democratic party platform of 1964, which had a strong commitment to civil rights. As Johnson's liaison with the advertising firm that was preparing television advertising for the campaign, Moyers ordered a strong attack on Barry Goldwater. Moreover, he approved of the famous "Daisy" ad, which showed a young girl counting the petals on a daisy, then cut to a countdown to a nuclear explosion with a voiceover of Johnson speaking of the importance of peace. The ad evoked protests from the Goldwater campaign and was aired only once. Though it never explicitly mentioned Goldwater or the Republicans, the ad was a highly effective evocation of Goldwater's reputation for nuclear bellicosity."

http://www.answers.com/topic/bill-moyers


******************************
"Although Tuck had irritated Nixon during his previous campaigns, he worked especially hard to torment the President in his final run for re-election. His stunts were amusing, especially when pulled on the serious Nixon. They caught the imagination of the public, such that verbal descriptions of some stunts were later embellished upon.

"One stunt Tuck pulled was when he arranged for Nixon to make a campaign speech at a large auditorium for Republican supporters. Of course Nixon was expecting a good turnout, but when he arrived, there were only a handful of people there to hear him speak! Tuck had made sure that nobody in the city knew Nixon was to be there. You can imagine the shock to Nixon that only a few people had bothered to come to hear him speak."

"Another stunt Tuck orchestrated was when Nixon was campaigning via train, making "whistle stop" speeches in various communities. Tuck had dressed as a rail employee and when Nixon was in the middle of his speech, Tuck signaled the engineer to start the train. It pulled away, while Nixon was still talking to the audience."

"Such stunts were certainly humorous—especially to the Democrats, who probably financed them. On the other hand, Nixon and his people felt that if the Democrats can play dirty tricks, the Republicans could also do the same."
.....

"It is interesting that although the political tricks of Dick Tuck were well publicized in the press, they were never taken seriously or are even considered part of the political history of that era. It is my contention that Dick Tuck's tricks helped to bring on Watergate and the demise of Richard Nixon."

http://www.school-for-champions.com/history/did_dick_tuck_cause_watergate.htm

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 10:50 PM

Oh, Rap, you mean SOME people with PTSD are FAIRLY safe?

I had a friend lodge with me for some years. Military background in one of the very butch branches. Impressive record of hand-to-hand combat kills. Nutty as a fruitcake. Lodging with me was initially a condition of his bail after he was charged with attempted murder. I have some idea what I'm talking about.

If you want to learn something, just google "US veterans mental health". Are all 42,900,000 hits some left-wing conspiracy?

Sheesh.

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 09:47 PM

Nope, Ebbie. It's Bill Moyers. Check Wikipedia for a typical Wikipedia article on him.

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 09:41 PM

"He was always Johnson's stealth character assassin, working as a deadly duo with Richard "Dick" Tuck, Johnson' dirty tricks specialist." peed

Are you certain you are not speaking of Stephen Moyer? Otherwise, I would dearly love some documentation.

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: pdq
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 08:05 PM

Bill Moyers goes clear back to the Kennedy administration.

He was Lyndon Johnson's defacto chief of staff and press secretary for a while.

He was always Johnson's stealth character assassin, working as a deadly duo with Richard "Dick" Tuck, Johnson' dirty tricks specialist.

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 08:04 PM

I think that Obama and his wife have made some serious inroads with the military... Not that they will carry the military vote... They won't... But they have made a dent...

As for Repubs dissing vets??? Don't think that vets aren't paying attention...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: michaelr
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 07:57 PM

Bill Moyers a Republican? Documentation, please.

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 07:34 PM

Mr. Bridge, you spend too much time watching Hollywood movies and television. Your statement about veterans with PTSD is a piece of crap.

Those with PTSD are most likely to suffer from alcohol and drug abuse and dependence, depression, generalized anxiety disorders, occupational instability, marital and familial conflicts and problems, antisocial behavior (which includes simply avoiding crowds and people) and more general health problems. These are far more likely than shooting up a bar or a shopping mall. Your average veteran with PTSD will shut him- or her- self away rather than "go nuts."

There are still those from the Vietnam War who live here in Idaho's back country because they can't cope with more than a small town, and that only periodically. There are also those from Gulf I, OIF, OEF, Korea, and World War II.

PTSD, as you obviously don't know, is triggered by many, many more things than combat. Earthquake, tsunami, vulcanism, fires, rapes and other crimes of violence and a host of other life-altering experiences can cause it. Being a firefighter or a policeman for several years, working in an emergency room or as an EMT, pulling pieces of people from car or other wrecks and similar things all can cause PTSD.

The good news is that those suffering from it can be helped. I know, because I have it and it's cost me dearly.

I suggest again that you stop getting your "facts" from such pieces of trash as "Apocalypse Now," "Combat Shock," and "Rambo" and try instead such places as ptsd.org.uk.

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 06:28 PM

In 1969, 75% of the members of Congress were military veterans.

Really? 24 years after World War II in a group dominated by aged and middle aged men?

What a surprise!!

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 06:21 PM

No Rap - it's partly questioning warmongers who prefer an authoritarian social structure, and it's partly wondering how safe people with PTSD are with their fingers on triggers. Look how many Vietnam vets went crazy on the streets. Doesn't that worry you about the ones in positions of authority?

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: pdq
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 06:07 PM

"As American voters, we have often chosen and then rejected our public servants guided by the complimentary Biblical principles of: 'Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much' (Luke 16:10), and 'to whom much is given, from him much will be required' (Luke 12:48).

Throughout most of our nation's history, we measured that faithfulness and trustworthiness by a candidate's prior military service. Being a veteran was considered practically a mandatory prerequisite for election, but in these years after Woodstock and Vietnam, fewer and fewer members of Congress have been meeting that requirement.

In 1969, 75% of the members of Congress were military veterans. In 2000, that percentage had dropped to about one-third. In the upcoming 112th Congress, only 21% of its lawmakers will have served in the military.

Hopefully, though, that pendulum will swing back around again.

Twenty of the freshmen members of the 112th Congress are veterans, all are Republican..."

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: pdq
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 04:56 PM

"Why do those who did not serve -- such as Newt Gingerich, Karl Rove, Richard Cheney, John Ashcroft, and Paul Wolfowitz -- denigrate those such as John McCain and Max Cleland who did?" ~ Rap

They don't. That statement is crap. Period.

The Democrats did everything they could to belittle McCain, George H. W. Bush and Bob Dole, all war heros of the first order. It is called "the politics of personal destruction".

Fact is, Miss. Dankworth must bring something to the job but her status as a disabled vet. Dole, Bush and McCain did.

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 04:45 PM

FACT: By law, there are no more than 435 members of the US House of Representatives.

FACT: Of these, 92, or 21%, are veterans. Of these 92, 22, or 24%, are Democrats. (Source: US House of Representatives.)

FACT: The Veterans Administration estimates that as of April 12, 2012, there were 22,234,000 veterans in the US. This is 7.2%.

There are, percentage-wise, more veterans in the House than in the general population. Recently the DoD stated that no more than 11 to 12% of those eligible to serve in the US military could be accepted -- the main causes for rejection are educational deficiency (lack of high school diploma or equivalent) and/or obesity.

Why do those who did not serve -- such as Newt Gingerich, Karl Rove, Richard Cheney, John Ashcroft, and Paul Wolfowitz -- denigrate those such as John McCain and Max Cleland who did? I really would like to understand.

It also seems that it's becoming fashionable to be a veteran -- such claims have been made and revoked by some recently...I believe some from each party.

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 03:52 PM

The stuff about McCain having a black child is scurrilous. But his sanity and trustworthiness with nuclear weapons, those things are important and deserve questions.

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 12:20 PM

Or the hatchet job the McCain people did on Max Cleland, or John Kerry, and which they will probably try to do on Bob Kerrey

PeeDee, you trying to say that the Repubs DIDN'T do a hatchet job & that they won't try again?


What I wish for is a whole passel of Bill Moyer-style Republicans who are thoughtful and lucid in their speech. Articulate about why they hold the views they do and aiming for reasonable discourse.

They're all dead, or have been neutered.

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 12:05 PM

When I read the cartoon art that is posted by facebook friends who are Republicans, I know that the broad brush smearing Democrat/Liberal voters is way wrong. It targets the extreme party leadership (in their opinion, apparently) but smears everyone. And I understand that when I post a funny view of the hard-headed anti-women anti-choice anti-health anti-jobs etc GOP that I'm definitely aiming at the leadership but am hitting friends who may not share those extreme views.

What I wish for is a whole passel of Bill Moyer-style Republicans who are thoughtful and lucid in their speech. Articulate about why they hold the views they do and aiming for reasonable discourse.

I won't hold my breath until it happens.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: pdq
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 11:41 AM

The VoteVets advisory board:

Jon Soltz, General Wesley K. Clark (ret.), Major General Paul D. Eaton (ret.), Bob Kerrey, Tammy Duckworth, Paul Hackett, Richard Beattie, Bill Belding, Leslie H. Gelb, Elaine Kamarck, Lawrence Korb, William E. Little, Lawrence E. Penn III, Edward Vick...

"Or the hatchet job the McCain people did on Max Cleland, or John Kerry, and which they will probably try to do on Bob Kerrey." ~ Rap

Kerry will complain that his Republican opponent does not respecrt his military service even if he says nothing of the kind. That's how Federal politics is played, unfortunately. Claims the Democrats are all little angels gets real tedious after a while.

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 10:02 AM

If you're sent to combat (for whatever reason) and get both legs blown off or are wounded in other ways, I don't think you should be degraded, scorned and ignored by those who were responsible for you being sent there in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 09:41 AM

Wrong dude. The grandaddy of the modern GOP was Ivy Lee - hired liar (and a good one!) for John D. Rockefeller, jr.

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 08:56 AM

I knew it was Lee Atwater before I opened the link...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 01:05 AM

The granddaddy of modern GOP dirt and a pretty good blues man.

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 01:03 AM

Your soldiers are not sacrificing to make your country free or to keep it free. Neither are our soldiers (the Canadians). Neither are the UK soldiers. None of them are sacrificing to make their countries free. Freedom has nothing to do with their very considerable sacrifices. They are sacrificing so that big oil companies and other big financial players in the West can make big money off invaded and occupied lands that don't belong to us.

Are our soldiers heroes? Yeah, sometimes they are. And sometimes the people fighting against them are too. A hero is simply someone who shows great courage in a desperate situation, and there are many such on both sides in every war.

Do your soldiers deserve respect for their courage? Sure. If you want to believe they're protecting your "freedom", though, that's just feelgood mythology with no basis in reality. The people opposing our soldiers on the battlefield are not interested in taking away YOUR freedom or mine. They have no such objectives. They're interested in getting foreign powers, foreign armies, and foreign political/commercial/financial control the hell out of their own homelands! It's their freedom and sovereignty that they are fighting for. Their culture. Their beliefs. Their way of life. And their right to run their own affairs as they wish. You'd probably do the same if you were in their place. It's neocolonialism and foreign occupation that they are fighting against.

Wait until you've been invaded and taken over by some greater foreign power with a huge military capability comparable to ours, and then you'll see. You won't fight to take away their freedom, whatever it may be! You'll fight to make them LEAVE your country and leave you alone to live your own way of life and control your own land.

We are the aggressors here. Us. The western powers. We're armed to the teeth. We terrorize many other lands. We invade other places. We hold a nuclear Sword of Damocles over the whole world. And it's all being done for money and imperial interests, not to protect anyone's freedom.

Matter of fact, our own traditional constitutional freedoms are being steadily eroded and taken away year by year, and not by the invaded foreigners we call "enemies"...but our own legally elected governments.

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 12:49 AM

The Republicans do seem to go from strength to strength.

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jul 12 - 10:20 PM

It's the Karl Rove way... Find your opponents strength and attack it...

Unfortunately, it works because we don't have an "informed electorate"... We have a misinformed electorate... Terribly so...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jul 12 - 10:09 PM

On the other hand, I respect George H. Bush, Bob Dole, and others. Hell, one of the guys I have coffee with is "Mr. Republican" around here -- ex-Marine (as much as you can be that), Iwo, Okinawa, Saipan, Tinian...and a great guy. He's not against a decent health care Act and he's said, out loud and in public, that if Congress doesn't start working together they're going start looking for work.

But these smear tactics -- that's too damned low even for someone like Karl Rove to do. Well, on second thought....

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jul 12 - 09:59 PM

You say that as though it were a bad thing, Rap. This is all that W either did or tacitly condoned:

"McCain Slurs Included Illegitimate Children, Homosexuality And A Drug-Addict Wife.
Among the rumors circulated against McCain in 2000 in South Carolina was that his adopted Bangladeshi daughter was actually black, that McCain was both gay and cheated on his wife, and that his wife Cindy was a drug addict.

Bush Campaign Used Code Words to Question McCain's Temper.
A smear campaign of the ugliest sort is now coursing through the contest for the presidency in 2000. Using the code word "temper," a group of Senate Republicans, and at least some outriders of the George W. Bush campaign, are spreading the word that John McCain is unstable. The subtext, also suggested in this whispering campaign, is that he returned from 5 1/2 years as a POW in North Vietnam with a loose screw. And it is bruited about that he shouldn't be entrusted with nuclear weapons.

Bush Supporters Questioned McCain's Sanity.
Some of George W. Bush's supporters have questioned Republican presidential candidate John McCain's fitness for the White House, suggesting that his five years as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam drove him insane at the time.

Bush Supporters Spread Racist Rumors About McCain's Daughter.
Bush supporters in South Carolina made race-baiting phone calls saying that McCain had a black child. The McCains' daughter, Bridget, was adopted from Mother Teresa's orphanage in Bangladesh. In August 2000, columnist Maureen Dowd wrote that the McCains are still seething about Bush supporters in South Carolina spreading word of their dark-skinned adopted daughter.

Rove Suggests Former POW McCain Committed Treason and Fathered Child With Black Prostitute.
In 2000, McCain operatives in SC accused Rove of spreading rumors against McCain, such as suggestions that McCain had committed treason while a prisoner of war, and had fathered a child by a black prostitute, according to the New Yorker.

After Rove Denied Role In McCain Whisper Campaign, Reporters Concluded He Was Behind It."

What's So Bad About It?

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jul 12 - 09:17 PM

In 2000, the GW Bush campaign did a smear job on John McCain. Huh?

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jul 12 - 08:46 PM

Chicken hawks...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Jul 12 - 08:36 PM

Republicans Don't have to publicly do this any more thank to that turncoat liberal Justice Roberts.

Subject: BS: My Problem With SOME Republicans
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jul 12 - 08:33 PM

A non-partisan U.S. veterans group stepped up calls for a Republican congressman to resign Thursday after he openly berated his double-amputee political rival for talking up her Iraq War injuries.

Representative Joe Walsh of Illinois enraged veterans with comments about Tammy Duckworth, a decorated U.S. Army pilot who in 2004 lost both her legs and nearly died when the Blackhawk helicopter she was co-piloting was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade fired by Iraqi insurgents.

On Sunday, Walsh told a town hall meeting that he was "running against a woman who -- I mean, my God, that's all she talks about," he said, claiming his Democratic opponent played on her injuries to score political points in public.

"Our true heroes, the men and women who served us, that's the last thing in the world they talk about," he added.

Walsh, who reportedly has not served in the military, repeated his criticism on Wednesday.

"She is a hero, and that demands our respect, but it doesn't demand our vote," he told CNN. "All she does, guys, is talk about her service."

The series of comments led VoteVets.org, a political action committee which supports veterans issues, to demand Walsh step down.

"He needs to just resign and stop embarrassing his constituents," VoteVets chairman Jon Soltz, himself an Iraq War veteran, said on MSNBC on Thursday.

"The guy has no idea what it means to be in the military, what it means to serve," he said, adding that Duckworth continues to serve as a lieutenant colonel in the Illinois National Guard and does seek to gain from her injuries.

"The fact is she has no legs, and it's obviously very noticeable, and that's a huge part of who she is," Soltz said.

Duckworth has served as assistant secretary of the Department of Veterans Affairs under President Barack Obama. The Iraq veteran's congressional campaign said Walsh's comments "insult those who sacrificed to make this country free."

Duckworth said this week that her wounds "do inform my discussions with the constituents when I talk about health care," particularly in the debate over Obama's landmark health care reforms that are opposed by most Republicans.

In 2006, Duckworth lost her bid for a congressional seat by about 2.5 percent of the vote.

Or the hatchet job the McCain people did on Max Cleland, or John Kerry, and which they will probably try to do on Bob Kerrey.

No, not by any mean ALL. But some politicians stoop awfully low.