BS: The Arab Fall

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 12:11 PM

It's a bit hard decoding some of those posts. You'd have to take notes as you read the thread and scroll up and down a few times...

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 01:03 PM

LH-

Yes, there is a history, well beyond the recent protests by some Moslems to the film clip release.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 11:19 AM

Given all the harm that the USA and the UK in league with Israel have done all across that region in the last 60 years, harm that has been inflicted mostly on Muslim nations and Muslim populations, there has to be a simply enormous reservoir of rage ready to spill over at any time against the USA, UK, and Israel.

Is it any wonder that Muslims have reacted violently to this latest incident? Their reaction isn't helpful, needless to say, not in the least, but it's understandable, given their culture and the general political situation since the end of WWII.

The only thing that holds them down is the immense military superiority of the USA/UK/Israel who can slaughter whom they please, when they please, and rule the region by force or the threat of force. Every Muslim knows that. They live every day of their lives under the American-Israeli gun and the American-Israeli boot, and are enraged by their powerlessness.

They are not the primary perpetrators in this sorry historical drama. They are the primary victims of it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 11:00 AM

Bobert-

"Wonder where he got his money???"

From Al Qaeda of course. It all logically follows........

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 09:27 AM

"Akin" is not only a subjective term but also opens the door widely to dishonesty and therefore has no place in an arena where actual facts are being discussed...

Bottom line??? There has been ****no apology****...

This Romney feller ain't all that concerned about the truth because much of his base isn't either... They are strong in their beliefs of mythology, however...

But with that restated, the film maker has been taken into custody for questionoing about possible probation violations... I saw pictures on the news this morning of him being escorted by the police away from his house... He had either a towel or bed sheet wrapped around his head so that folks wouldn't know who he was... BTW, from what I could see, he has a very nice house with a newish Mercedes in the driveway... Wonder where he got his money???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 08:45 AM

"This bears no similarity to the actual situation."

The only difference is your politics.

""Agree or disagree. There is no "partly""

False dilemma logical fallacy."

I know that you just made up that "fallacy" and even if you didn't, where is the dilemma? You really need to invest some time in using a dictionary.

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 08:35 AM

Sawzaw-

Interesting details about Mr. Klein.

"why was it (the film clip) not discovered and exposed (by Moslems) until Sep 11th?"

The simple answer is because the film track wasn't available in Arabic translation until close to that date.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 10:36 AM

"We firmly reject the actions by those who abuse the universal right of free speech to hurt the religious beliefs of others"

"The statement by Embassy Cairo was not cleared by Washington and does not reflect the views of the United States government,"

Takeb together that would appear to be to indicate that the official policy of the United Sates is that the actions by those who abuse the universal right of free speech to hurt the religious beliefs of others are fully acceptable.

That's a bit alarming.

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: Sawzaw
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 08:55 AM

I agree Bill D but why was it not discovered and exposed until Sep 11th?

"If a kid broke your window with a baseball bat and you had some other kid by the ear shaking him and that kid said that he "regretted that a ball had broken your window" would you accept that as an apology for what the first had done?"

This bears no similarity to the actual situation.

"Agree or disagree. There is no "partly""

False dilemma logical fallacy.

Like George Bush's "Either you're with us or you're with the terrorists."

Manichean dichotomy

Black-or-White Fallacy

Bifurcation

Either/Or Fallacy

Why was the statement from the Embassy removed if there was nothing wrong with it?

It makes me believe that Obama's foreign policy is a confusing mess. It has done nothing to improve America's foreign relations

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: Sawzaw
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 08:19 AM

Anti-Muslim film promoter outspoken on Islam

HEMET, Calif. (AP) - The public face for the anti-Muslim film inflaming the Middle East is not the filmmaker, but an insurance agent and Vietnam War veteran whose unabashed and outspoken hatred of radical Muslims has drawn the attention of civil libertarians, who say he's a hate monger.

With the Coptic Christian filmmaker Nakoula Basseley Nakoula in hiding, film promoter Steve Klein has taken center stage in the unfolding international drama. He's given a stream of interviews about the film and the man he says he knew only as Sam Bacile, and is using the attention to talk about his own political views.

Nakoula, who used Bacile spelled multiple ways as a pseudonym, contacted Klein months ago for advice about the limits of American free speech and asked for help vetting the movie's script, Klein said in an interview with The Associated Press. The filmmaker asked the 61-year-old grandfather if he would act as a spokesman if the film "caught on," and he agreed.

The role dovetailed with Klein's relentless pursuit of radical Muslims in America, an activity he says he began after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. It took on more meaning in 2007, when his son, then a 27-year-old Army staff sergeant, was seriously injured in Iraq. Matthew Klein, a medic, was awarded the Bronze Star for Valor and a Purple Heart for injuries he suffered in the attack by a suicide bomber, according to the Army Human Resources Command.

"What do I get out of this? I get to die one of these days hoping my granddaughters and my grandsons will be safe from these monsters," Klein said while sipping a beer on the front porch of his home.

He claimed to have visited "every mosque in California" and identified "500 to 750 of these people who are future suicide bombers and murderers."

"Those are the guys I'm looking for. I'm not interested in mom and pop running a pizza store or running a smoky shop, a hookah shop," he said.

Klein works with his wife as an insurance agent out of a small office on the second floor of a downtrodden business complex in Hemet, a small city in the shadows of the San Jacinto Mountains about 90 miles southeast of Los Angeles. He describes himself as a failed real estate investor who lost 20 properties in the recession. In 2002, he was the American Independent Party's candidate for state insurance commissioner, receiving 2 percent of the vote.

The Southern Poverty Law Center says they have been tracking Klein for several years and have labeled two of the organizations he is affiliated with as hate groups.

Klein founded Courageous Christians United, which conducts protests outside abortion clinics, Mormon temples and mosques, and started Concerned Citizens for the First Amendment, which preaches against Muslims and publishes volumes of anti-Muslim propaganda that Klein distributes. He also has helped train paramilitary militias at the church of Kaweah near Three Rivers, about an hour southeast of Fresno, to prepare for what they believe is a coming holy war with Muslim sleeper cells, according to the law center.

"It's extreme, ugly, violent rhetoric and the fact that he's involved in that weapons training at that church, when you combine things like weapons training with hatred of a people, that's very concerning to us. Those are the kind of things that lead to hate crimes," said Heidi Beirich, director of the center's Intelligence Project.

Beirich said her group has not linked Klein to any violence. A review of California court records shows only two minor traffic cases for Klein.

Klein is not affiliated with the church of Kaweah, Pastor Warren Mark Campbell said. He was invited to speak about Islam and hasn't been back in more than a year.

Klein dismissed the concerns of his critics, angrily calling them "the wife-beaters and the pedophiles."

"Those people are screwballs. End of comment," he said.

What Klein has been eager to discuss in the days since his name became publicly linked to Nakoula is his role in the film's creation and his own political views.

Klein said he recognized parallels between what he saw in Vietnam, where he says he infiltrated Viet Cong cells, and "Muslim sleeper cells" he began finding after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. He visits mosques and confronts young Muslim men who "dress up like Osama bin Laden and Yasser Arafat."

Military records obtained by the AP from the National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis show he served in the Marine Corps from 1968 to 1977 on active duty and received a service star for participating in the campaign in Vietnam. He also received a good conduct medal and a combat action medal before retiring in 1980 with the rank of first lieutenant.

"I'm kind of an unsophisticated James Bond operative. I want to piss this guy off, I want to find out, Why does he want to kill me?" he said. "Why does he want to capture my daughter and granddaughter and rape them? Why does this guy want to act this way?"

That work indirectly led him to his affiliation with Nakoula, an Egyptian Christian living outside Los Angeles, who contacted him about making an anti-Muslim movie.

Klein reviewed the script and then the man disappeared, only to resurface months later with a complete film ready to show at a movie theater in Hollywood.

The filmmaker's idea was to give the film a title that would draw in "hardcore Muslims" and then trick them into watching a movie that bashed Islam in the hopes that they would give up their faith, Klein said.

Nakoula papered Southern California mosques with flyers about the "Innocence of Muslims," but not one ticket was sold, said Klein, who said Nakoula was crushed.

The AP has tried without success to find a copy of the entire film.

Later, a 14-minute trailer showed up on YouTube and has been blamed for inflaming mobs that attacked U.S. missions in Egypt and Libya this week as well as U.S. Embassy in Yemen on Thursday. U.S. Ambassador Chris Stevens was one of four Americans killed Tuesday in an attack in Libya.

Klein said he had no regrets about participating in the movie's creation.

"Do I have blood on my hands? No. Did I kill this guy? No," he said. "Do I feel guilty that these people were incited? Guess what? I didn't incite them. They're pre-incited, they're pre-programmed to do this."

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 12:40 AM

Yes Romney said that it was "Akin" to an apology.

Why didn't he say it was an apology? Because it was an apology? No it was not an apology.

Why did the person say that those actions were regretted? Because he regretted that some "conservative" bigot was stupid enough to try to kick in his door.

If a kid broke your window with a baseball bat and you had some other kid by the ear shaking him and that kid said that he "regretted that a ball had broken your window" would you accept that as an apology for what the first had done?

No? I didn't think so.

Do think that you are that much better than the average world leader or even the average Arab with a twitter account? Well you are not.

An apology is an apology.
Akin to an apology is NOT an apology.
The glass is full or it it not.
The glass in empty or it is not.
Agree or disagree. There is no "partly"

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 10:41 PM

"Then whammo, on Sep 11th it suddenly made them angry."'

Yeah... right AFTER it was played on a Cairo station! It had a little notice until it was picked up in the UK and discovered by a Muslim based station! It's not as if it was seen all over the Islamic world for months!

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 10:33 PM

The statement I referred to was tweeted from the embassy not given by Obama:

"We firmly reject the actions by those who abuse the universal right of free speech to hurt the religious beliefs of others"

It is considered an apology by some people, an appeasement. After it was criticized as an apology the statement was removed:

"The statement by Embassy Cairo was not cleared by Washington and does not reflect the views of the United States government,"

Then in the Rose Garden Obama says: "There is absolutely no justification for this type of senseless violence, none"

Well said but a little late.

"The president takes responsibility not just for the words that come from his mouth but also the words that come from his ambassadors, from his administration, from his embassies, from his state department," Romney said. "They clearly sent mixed messages to the world and the statement is akin to an apology."

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 08:52 PM

White House clarifies—while defending—Obama on Egypt

A day after President Barack Obama accused Mitt Romney of having a "shoot first and aim later" approach to foreign policy, the White House found itself Thursday recalibrating the incumbent's claim that Egypt is not "an ally" nor an enemy. At the same time, it insisted his comment was technically true.

The chief problem for Obama-who said of Egypt, "I don't think that we would consider them an ally, but we don't consider them an enemy"-is that Egypt has formally been a "major non-NATO ally" since 1989. That designation makes it easier to provide a country with American military hardware. And presidents of both parties have described Egypt as a close ally while showering it with more than $1 billion per year in aid.

"The president, in diplomatic and legal terms, was speaking correctly, that we do not have an alliance treaty with Egypt," White House press secretary Jay Carney told reporters aboard Air Force One.

"'Ally' is a legal term of art," Carney said. That comment may raise more eyebrows than it lowers, especially among conservatives who charge that Obama shortchanges traditional allies like Israel.

"But as the president has said, Egypt is a longstanding and close partner of the United States, and we have built on that foundation by supporting Egypt's transition to democracy and working with the new government," the spokesman added.

Obama's description of Egypt came in the aftermath of violent protests targeting the U.S. Embassy in Cairo and its consulate in the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi, where an attack by gunmen left U.S. Ambassador Chris Stevens and three others dead.

The president-his handling of the so-called "Arab Spring" under fresh scrutiny after attacks on the American diplomatic posts in Egypt, Libya and, on Thursday, Yemen-had been asked by Telemundo whether he sees Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi's fledgling government as an ally.

"Certainly in this situation what we're going to expect is that they are responsive to our insistence that our embassy is protected, our personnel is protected," Obama said. "And if they take actions that indicate they're not taking responsibilities, as all other countries do where we have embassies, I think that's going to be a real big problem."

Surely the State Department can clear up this misunderstanding?

"Obviously for parsing of the president's comments, I'm going to send you to the White House," said spokeswoman Victoria Nuland.

"But as a matter of fact and practice, the word ally generally is used with a treaty ally, which is a different matter than the fact that we have a very close and longstanding partnership with the government of Egypt, and we are working together to support their democratic transition," she added. But Egypt is still a major non-NATO ally, right? "Correct, yeah."

Does declaring that Egypt is not technically or legally an "ally" because it does not have a mutual defense treaty put countries like Pakistan or India on notice? "Well, that was certainly, I don't think, the intention. I'm going to refer you to the White House for further parsing on this," Nuland said.

It fell to Democratic House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi to tackle the substance of the issue as she seemed to echo Obama's comments but argued forcefully against cutting off aid to Egypt, as some Republicans have suggested.

"I don't know about the word 'ally,' we'll see," Pelosi said at a Capitol press conference. "But the fact is we have an interest in Egypt's success. Let's hope that we can do that as allies."

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 12:33 PM

Question:

Do you in any way believe that in an argument a "rhetorical statement" is a bad thing? If so, why?

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 12:31 PM

All the quotes are available to you Sawz.

Show us the apology.

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 12:28 PM

"a hypothetical fallacy."

LOL!!

I am pleased for you that you have got yourself a new dictionary. But perhaps you should read the definitions of the 10 dollar words you are learning before you stick them together.

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 12:22 PM

This is background information about hate speech:

Hate Speech

In the United States, hate speech is protected as a civil right (aside from usual exceptions to free speech, such as defamation, incitement to riot, and fighting words). Laws prohibiting hate speech are unconstitutional in the United States; the United States federal government and state governments are forbidden by the First Amendment of the Constitution from restricting speech.

The "reason why fighting words are categorically excluded from the protection of the First Amendment is not that their content communicates any particular idea, but that their content embodies a particularly intolerable (and socially unnecessary) mode of expressing whatever idea the speaker wishes to convey." Even in cases where speech encourages illegal violence, instances of incitement qualify as criminal only if the threat of violence is imminent. This strict standard prevents prosecution of many cases of incitement, including prosecution of those advocating violent opposition to the government and those exhorting violence against racial, ethnic, or gender minorities.

Under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, employers may sometimes be prosecuted for tolerating "hate speech" by their employees, if that speech contributes to a broader pattern of harassment resulting in a "hostile or offensive working environment" for other employees.

In the 1980s and 1990s, more than 350 public universities adopted "speech codes" regulating discriminatory speech by faculty and students. These codes have not fared well in the courts, where they are frequently overturned as violations of the First Amendment. Debate over restriction of "hate speech" in public universities has resurfaced with the adoption of anti-harassment codes covering discriminatory speech.
NTIA report

In 1992, Congress directed the National Telecommunications and Information Administration (NTIA) to examine the role of telecommunications, including broadcast radio and television, cable television, public access television, and computer bulletin boards, in advocating or encouraging violent acts and the commission of hate crimes against designated persons and groups. The NTIA study investigated speech that fostered a climate of hatred and prejudice in which hate crimes may occur. Study findings revealed only a few instances during the past decade in which broadcast facilities were used to spread messages of hate and bigotry. In two such instances, radio broadcasts arguably urged an audience to commit hate-motivated crimes. In other instances, radio broadcast licensees aired programming that evidenced prejudice. A few highly publicized cable television programs promoted messages of hate and bigotry. In some cases, cable programming stirred community reaction and was followed by counterprogramming. During the 1980s, computer bulletin boards were established by various white supremacist and neo-Nazi groups, but many fell into disuse later in the decade. The study also found that hate "hotlines" are used to deliver recorded messages of bigotry and prejudice and that telephones can be used to intimidate, threaten, and harass individuals and organizations. NTIA's research suggests that hate messages represent a very small percentage of electronic communications media and that the best response is public education rather than government censorship and regulation. Legal remedies involving the use of telecommunications to commit or encourage hate crimes are discussed, as well as technologies that can protect or empower targets of hate speech. A list of commenters is appended. 285 footnotes

In 1993, the National Telecommunications and Information Administration (NTIA) released a report titled "The Role of Telecommunications in Hate Crimes." This report gave one of the first definitions by government on hate speech. According to NTIA hate speech is:

    Speech that advocates or encourages violent acts or crimes of hate.
    Speech that creates a climate of hate or prejudice, which may in turn foster the commission of hate crimes.

Hate speech in media

In January, 2009, the National Hispanic Media Coalition (NHMC), a not for profit organization with a mission to improve the image of American Latinos as portrayed by the media, unveiled a three prong strategy to address the issue of hate speech in media. 1) NHMC filed a petition for inquiry into hate speech with the Federal Communications Commission (FCC). The petition urges the Commission to examine the extent and effects of hate speech in media, including the likely link between hate speech and hate crimes, and to explore non-regulatory ways in which to counteract its negative impacts. 2) NHMC asked the National Telecommunications and Information Administration (NTIA) to update its 1993 report "The Role of Telecommunications in Hate Crimes"; 3) NHMC collaborated with the UCLA/Chicano Research Study Center (CRSC) to produce groundbreaking research on the subject. "Hate Speech on Commercial Radio, Preliminary Report on a Pilot Study" was also released in January, 2009.

"Hate Speech on Commercial Radio" categorized hate speech in four different areas.

    False facts
    Flawed argumentation
    Divisive language
    Dehumanizing metaphors

In May 2010, NHMC filed comments in the FCC's proceeding on the Future of Media and Information Needs of Communities in the Digital Age. Joined by 32 national and regional organizations from throughout the country, the comments ask the FCC to examine hate speech in media. In its comments, NHMC reinforces the need for the FCC to act on NHMC's petition for inquiry on hate speech in media filed in January 2009.

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 12:18 PM

"it would have little better chance of success than teaching a pig to sing." Another rhetorical statement and a hypothetical fallacy.

As usual, WTF are you talking about Amos? Put it English. Is it the shoot first aim later rhetorical bullshit?

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 12:00 PM

HEre's a hint, Sawz. Lay out the events in chronological order, tagged by their sources.

1. Earlier events can never be responses to later events. Time is unidirectional in the shared universe.

2. The actual and true source of a communication is the owner and responsible author thereof, and no-one else.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 11:55 AM

I could explain the logic to you easily enough, but I fear it would have little better chance of success than teaching a pig to sing.

All the quotes are available to you Sawz. Show us the apology.

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 11:06 AM

Which is a rhetorical statement with no logic.

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 11:02 AM

There wasn't any apology Sawz. The person who said it was was quickly put in his place by the president and lost a few tens of thousands of voters who were on the fence. President Obama is not winning this contest. Governor Romney is losing it by showing himself to be less and less able to think on his feet.

A great man recently said. "Governor Romney seems to have a tendency to shoot first and aim later."

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 10:14 AM

The only way to make embassies 100 per cent safe would be to close them down.

That would just shift the risk to some other place.

Getting rid of Gaddafi did of course involve some risks, since he was good at crushing dissent. People who supported taking that risk have no right to complain now.

It's a dangerous world out there.

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:58 AM

You prove me wrong lady.

After it was called an apology, he came out with a more forceful statement promising Justice.

Personally I believe it is darn near impossible to draw a line between free speech and hate speech.

The video that caused the incident might be called hate speech. Then again the people responsible might have been looking for an excuse to attack. The video was around for 6 months I believe. Then whammo, on Sep 11th it suddenly made them angry.

Obama is negligent because every embassy in that part of thew world should have been on heightened alert with extra security and Military on guard.

Campaigning and fund raisers are more of a priority for him.

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:57 AM

It's just the ol' Karl Rove/Swift-boaters trickery, TIA... Attack your opponent's strengths with lies... The bigger the lie the better...

Here's the funny part about this... George Bush & Co. went around beating the drum for "democracy" and now it is arriving in the Middle-east and No. Africa it's, all of a sudden, the enemy... That's the problems with democracy... If yer gonna have it then if ya' don't like the results then ya' can't complain...

The Arab Spring is what it is... Centuries of dictators and tribal rule ain't gonna get fixed overnight... This is going to be a long slog... Just as out own democracy has proven to be...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:42 AM

With the mid-east in turmoil, as it is, in all probability, that the target of the game is the fall of Saudi Arabia, who holds trillions of our debt, as set up by Henry Kissinger, during the Carter Administration
(You buy our bonds, we'll buy your oil). If/when the Saudis fall, and the price of fuel skyrockets(which it will), then the oil corporations and banksters will have an easy 'sell', to drill here, and blow off the debt we owe the Saudis. 'Great for the economy' or the bankster's economy, and they will have the public's support...jobs, money flowing again....but not really for you, or us.
However, do not be fooled that this scam is in the interest of America nor it's citizens...but that WILL be a sales pitch, filtered down through those wonderfully patriotic political parties!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The Arab Fall
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:26 AM

"Then he apologizes to the attackers for causing them to attack"

That is a lie.

Prove me wrong. G'head.

Subject: BS: The Arab Fall
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:22 AM

Well Well Well. It had to happen.

Seems like the US is under attack again and Obama has not moved the needle at all on how the world views the US.

He failed to see the warning signs. Failed to protect the embassies. Then he apologizes to the attackers for causing them to attack.

The warning signs were there in Benghazi

Barry, yer doin' a heck of a job

It is only going to get worse:

Embassies in 7 countries warn of possible attacks