BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Dec 14 - 12:55 PM

"Americans put themselves forward as international role models."

You are mostly speaking the the choir here, el Musket. Kind of like in community college when the professor was berating us for not showing up to class. I pointed out to him that he was speaking to the ones who did show up.

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: Musket
Date: 03 Dec 14 - 03:04 AM

Ah, but I doubt you have seen me berate America's past other than where an unfortunate hangover from the past is either still with us or has resurfaced.

I enjoy my time in The USA but having spent enough time in enough different areas, I get a little picky when Americans put themselves forward as international role models.

You are supposed to be a democracy but I doubt 51% of the population wants hand guns worn in public, executions or non equitable healthcare provision.

But you know what? Mention this and you are met with "you can't do anything about it" or "you don't understand our political system."

Fine, but your founding fathers tried to give you a system of "by the people, for the people." The riots following police murder of anyone young and black leads me to think someone has started wondering what that statement means...

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 10:14 PM

Very clearly, the Texas Board of [mis]education had a point when they listed Moses but not the Magna Carta as major influences on our Democracy, to be taught to all children.

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 09:49 PM

"Of course civilisation is measured from your birth if you are going to take responsibility for it."

Oh dear. Musket, I can't even count the times you and others of your ilk and bent have explicitly said or, more mildly, implied that the United States of America has done or is doing everything from slaughtering Native Americans, to the willy nilly execution of the convicted to the gun-avid trigger happy cowboy.

Most of us are not doing that and did not do that. Our papas and mamas did not do that nor did their papas and mamas before them.

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 05:10 PM

Another perspective of early colonial history:

""We Were Not the Savages is a history of the near demise, from a Mi'kmaq perspective, of ancient democratic North American First Nations, caused by the European invasion of the Americas, with special focus on the Mi'kmaq. Although other European Nations, Spain for instance, were in on the slaughter this history relates in detail the actions of only one, Great Britain....Here is a native author who used the Europeans' own documents to prove their dastardly deeds and show that, when compared to the Mi'kmaq, the Europeans were the honorless savages. Daniel N. Paul puts history under the microscope, and it does not look anything like the history textbooks utilized throughout North America.

Again, let me emphasize that Paul used the white man's documents, so it cannot be said he twisted the facts.""

We were not the Savages 

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: Musket
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 04:59 PM

Ed. Of course civilisation is measured from your birth if you are going to take responsibility for it.

Its all that last night of the proms business i suppose....

Ebbie. I may well crack the odd dirty deed, but I put the marigolds on and clean up,afterwards.

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 04:53 PM

I hadn't even begun to suspect you, Musket, of all those dirty deeds. You're safe there. As safe as you can be with all that contaminated blood running in your veins. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 03:32 PM

""In fact, the only thing to be ashamed of when I was born was that we still had capital punishment, but that soon went.""


So, the civilized-not-to-be ashamed litmus test now is your birth date. More accurately, BM in time scales, I suspect. That type of seldctivevreasoning enables the erasing of a lot of bad stuff in the world's history. ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 03:03 PM

Aye, but that was then. Whither now? or Wither away?

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 01:50 PM

I don't know if our friends across the pond are familiar with Marriott
Edgar's monologues- as delivered by Stanley Holloway, but here's the final two verses of the hilarious "Signing of the The Magna Carta".

Just to set it up, the Barons have cornered King John - who's about to have his lunch - and have demanded that he signs the charter

"So they spread Charter out on tea table,
And John signed his name like a lamb,
His writing in places was sticky and thick
Through dipping his pen in the jam.

And it's through that there Magna Charter,
As were signed by the Barons of old,
That in England to-day we can do what we like,
So long as we do what we're told"

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: Musket
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 01:46 PM

Having checked, I live in a civilised country. It would appear the crusades were before my time. In fact, the only thing to be ashamed of when I was born was that we still had capital punishment, but that soon went.

You see, civilisation is a developing term, and looking at The USA today, it seems to be going backwards.

mg. in Wexford a few years ago, the uncle of a friend of mine was insisting that it wasn't illegal to discriminate against the Irish in The UK. He'd never been, you understand, but like the 1796 pike stuff down there, tales of perfidious albion tend to pass down in tradition.

Fairs fair mind, our lot were pure bastards over there a hundred years ago....

Stick to 2014, we can all influence the present and future.

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 12:47 PM

yeah...i'm not so sure either...i read an older irish book ..not sure who wrote it..anyway, it said that Irish could be killed at will..I think by anyone English. However, they had to pay the queen a certain amount of money to cover her loss. Historians can expound on the accuracy of this claim. I don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 05:29 PM

....and, then there was the slave merchants.

Britain and slavery 

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 04:54 PM

"We are a civilised country and always have been."

At what point did your nation become "civilised", dear Musket? I looked up a bit of your history and now I'm confused. Not to even mention the three Crusades which I consider a deplorable blot on anyone's history, since the 10th Century England has fought hundreds of wars of aggression, suffered about a dozen Civil Wars, conquered and subjugated numerous governments- the list goes on and on. In addition - although I know you have little liking for Charles Dickens - history tells us that England has killed many of its own people through pollution, starvation and brutality.

I am not confident that your nation has yet attained civilisation.

:\

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 03:50 AM

""Written constitutions are a relatively modern phenomenon. The two earliest examples date only from the late eighteenth century, and come from two countries that were very far apart geographically, politically and historically. Separated by continents and oceans, one was a prestigious and great commonwealth undergoing a period of decline, the other a federation of newly independent colonies that would become the most powerful country in the modern world. The constitutions of these two countries not only shared many notable similarities in their development and their final form, but they were also ratified almost at the same time, the first on 17 September 1787, the other on 3 May 1791. They were the Constitution of the United States of America and the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Poland-Lithuania.""


THE POLISH CONSTITUTION  

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: Musket
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 02:42 AM

We are a civilised country and always have been. There is no original. Multiple copies existed from the outset so all could be bound by it. If there is a cheap photocopy, rest assured someone will have found a gullible yank to buy the bugger.

Ebbie. Magna Carta isn't on the statute book and cannot by itself be used to clarify law. Our proudest political stance is that we don't need a constitution, just a thousand years of case law.

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: olddude
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 10:55 PM

If ya carry a dirty Harry 44mag no damn reindeer is gonna rrun you over on Xmas eve no siree unlike you guys over the pond

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: olddude
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 10:45 PM

Ross perot owns the original yours is a forgery

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: olddude
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 10:43 PM

That's why we had to write our own you forgot the gun part you twit how could you forget the most important part British gosh

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 09:30 PM

According to the Parliament website, the 1688/89 Bill of Rights is the third most important document in English law, after the Magna Carta and the Bill of Rights of 1628. I love some of the provisions:

That the Subjects which are Protestants may have Arms for their Defence suitable to their Conditions and as allowed by Law.
----------
And that the Oathes hereafter mentioned be taken by all Persons of whome the Oathes of Allegiance and Supremacy might be required by Law instead of them And that the said Oathes of Allegiance and Supremacy be abrogated.

I A B doe sincerely promise and sweare That I will be faithfull and beare true Allegiance to their Majestyes King William and Queene Mary Soe helpe me God.
-------------
...And whereas it hath beene found by Experience that it is inconsistent with the Safety and Welfaire of this Protestant Kingdome to be governed by a Popish Prince or by any King or Queene marrying a Papist the said Lords Spirituall and Temporall and Commons doe further pray that it may be enacted That all and every person and persons that is are or shall be reconciled to or shall hold Communion with the See or Church of Rome or shall professe the Popish Religion or shall marry a Papist shall be excluded and be for ever uncapeable to inherit possesse or enjoy the Crowne and Government of this Realme and Ireland and the Dominions thereunto belonging or any part of the same or to have use or exercise any Regall Power Authoritie or Jurisdiction within the same.

Tolerance, as long as you're Protestant....
I A B doe sweare That I doe from my Heart Abhorr, Detest and Abjure as Impious and Hereticall this damnable Doctrine and Position That Princes Excommunicated or Deprived by the Pope or any Authority of the See of Rome may be deposed or murdered by their Subjects or any other whatsoever. And I doe declare That noe Forreigne Prince Person Prelate, State or Potentate hath or ought to have any Jurisdiction Power Superiority Preeminence or Authoritie Ecclesiasticall or Spirituall within this Realme Soe helpe me God.

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 02:39 PM

Ah ha! I have undergone an epiphany!

On occasion- read, frequently- US citizens are chastised for the undue veneration of and the slavish devotion to our Constitution.

Our Constitution is less than 300 years old versus the 800-900 years age of the Magna Carta.

Long before another 500 years have passed, we in the USA will consider the US Constitution quaint and irrelevant. Just like the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 02:39 PM

Wasn't there a loophole left in about that bunch, though, Rap? I'm busy on something else, but if memory serves they exploited it and survived virtually untouched. Still, nominating the odd scapegoat might be a useful idea in future efforts, for instance, if the UK were to leave Europe...?

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: Musket
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 02:12 PM

I saw Magna Carta at Hereford Cathedral the other year. Nice to see that and Mappa Mundi at the same time. I am being lazy really because I live only 30 miles from Lincoln so could pop over and see it whenever I wish.

Apparently a copy is also in The USA. I hear they are still looking for the bit saying it is big and clever to carry guns.

😂

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: olddude
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 01:14 PM

The document resides in America you sold it to Ross perot or whatever that guys name was

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 01:10 PM

Here are a few to keep in. They're translated from the Latin, of course.

Heirs may be given in marriage, but not to someone of lower social standing. Before a marriage takes place, it shall be' made known to the heir's next-of-kin.

If anyone who has borrowed a sum of money from Jews dies before the debt has been repaid, his heir shall pay no interest on the debt for so long as he remains under age, irrespective of whom he holds his lands. If such a debt falls into the hands of the Crown, it will take nothing except the principal sum specified in the bond.

If a man dies owing money to Jews, his wife may have her dower and pay nothing towards the debt from it. If he leaves children that are under age, their needs may also be provided for on a scale appropriate to the size of his holding of lands. The debt is to be paid out of the residue, reserving the service due to his feudal lords. Debts owed to persons other than Jews are to be dealt with similarly.

We will remove completely from their offices the kinsmen of Gerard de Athée, and in future they shall hold no offices in England. The people in question are Engelard de Cigogné', Peter, Guy, and Andrew de Chanceaux, Guy de Cigogné, Geoffrey de Martigny and his brothers, Philip Marc and his brothers, with Geoffrey his nephew, and all.

No one shall be arrested or imprisoned on the appeal of a woman for the death of any person except her husband.

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: gnu
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 11:45 AM

The people.

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 05:09 AM

Ah, but in geological terms a hundred years hence IS "imminent"!

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 04:24 AM

Um, 800th?

Arithmetic is so poorly taught these days ...

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 03:55 AM

Tony Hancock....the Twelve Just Men.......!

brave Polish gal, made King John sign the paper to close the boozers at ten o' clock....

Subject: RE: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: Musket
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 03:52 AM

I'd refresh and reinforce the bits about divvying up the land between the barons.

I'd want to be declared a baron. (See point 1.)

Subject: BS: Magna Carta: did she die in vain?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 04:52 PM

With the imminent 900th anniversary of a document which laid some foundations to our modern political system likely to be hijacked by the Parties for their Greater Ignominy, what would you folks include in a modern Constitution for the UK?