BS: Perpetual war

Subject: RE: BS: Perpetual war
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 02:01 PM

Since the US nuked Japan and many other nations now have hair trigger nuclear warfare technology, there have been well over 20 examples where as little as one person's initiative prevented an enormous release of nuclear weapons.

Can we rely upon this perpetual luck?

Subject: RE: BS: Perpetual war
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 16 - 12:05 PM

"additionally, what comprises an inter-group clash, is likely somewhat subjective"
True enough - but some discrepancy.
The point I was making was that the overwhelming taking of life in any society is caused by wars for political and monetary gain facilitated by 'the great and the good' - totally beyond our control and most certainly nothing to do with a inherited inclination to kill.
What does worry me is the glorification and minimising of life-taking that is being sold to our kids as entertainment.
Come back in a generation or so's time and you may well have a point.
Yes - I know our parents said the exactly same about the comics we read and the films we saw, but I suggest that the sophisticated detachment that comes with today's offerings of violence is really something else - bring back Tom Mix, I say!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Perpetual war
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 16 - 11:58 AM

"additionally, what comprises an inter-group clash, is likely somewhat subjective"
True enough - but some discrepancy.
The point I was making was that the overwhelming taking of life in any society is caused by wars for political and monetary gain facilitated by 'the great and the good' - totally beyond our control and most certainly nothing to do with a inherited inclination to kill.
What does worry me is the glorification and minimising of life-taking that is being sold to our kids as entertainment.
Come back in a generation or so's time and you may well have a point.
Yes - I know our parents said the exactly same about the comics we read and the films we saw, but I suggest that the sophisticated detachment that comes with today's offerings of violence is really something else - bring back Tom Mix, I say!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Perpetual war
From: Ed T
Date: 28 May 16 - 10:41 AM

"I'm not sure where Morris got his figures, but they appear to be somewhat conservative."
I suspect the figure used, with the term "no less than, is a very rough approximate, sufficient for his purposes, (additionally, what comprises an inter-group clash, is likely somewhat subjective).

Subject: RE: BS: Perpetual war
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 May 16 - 10:11 AM

I am reminded of the song (Harvey Andrews?) which starts

At the turning of the century I was a lad of five
me father went to fight the boers an' ne're came back alive
me mother was left to bring us upno charity she'd seek
she washed and scrubbed and scraped along on seven a six a week

And when the great war came along I didn't hesitate
I took the royal shilling and went off to do me bit
we fought in mud and tears and blood three years or there abouts
then I copped some gas in Flanders and got invalided out.

Subject: RE: BS: Perpetual war
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 16 - 07:39 AM

"no less than fifty-nine million human animals were killed in inter-group clashes "
The overwhelming number of killings can be accounted for by war
- around 18 and a half million in WW1, around 70 to 85 million in WW2 - the massacre of the Congolese by the Belgians at the beginning of the 20th century alone accounts for up to 10 million..... and so ad infinitum.
I'm not sure where Morris got his figures, but they appear to be somewhat conservative.
All these killings were brought about by politicians or national leaders in support of acquisition or political or economic superiority - not a referendum in sight.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Perpetual war
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 16 - 07:39 AM

"no less than fifty-nine million human animals were killed in inter-group clashes "
The overwhelming number of killings can be accounted for by war
- around 18 and a half million in WW1, around 70 to 85 million in WW2 - the massacre of the Congolese by the Belgians at the beginning of the 20th century alone accounts for up to 10 million..... and so ad infinitum.
I'm not sure where Morris got his figures, but they appear to be somewhat conservative.
All these killings were brought about by politicians or national leaders in support of acquisition or political or economic superiority - not a referendum in sight.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Perpetual war
From: Ed T
Date: 28 May 16 - 06:58 AM

"In little more than a single century from 1820 to 1945, no less than fifty-nine million human animals were killed in inter-group clashes of one sort or another.... We describe these killings as men behaving "like animals," but if we could find a wild animal that showed signs of acting this way, it would be more precise to describe it as behaving like men." 
― Desmond Morris, The Human Zoo: A Zoologist's Study of the Urban Animal

More precisely, the current term for the concept addressed in my earlier link is neo tribalism (aka new), versus the erroneous, but common, concept of tribalism .

Subject: RE: BS: Perpetual war
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 16 - 04:38 AM

We're as far from tribalism as we are from ritual sacrifice and worshiping the sun - society has long moved on and there is no reason we should have inherited such primitive practices and beliefs.
It's the easiest thing in the world for the world establishments to justify warfare is to claim it's an inbuilt trait in all of us - I resent bitterly that anybody should suggest it about me and mine.
If it were true, compulsory conscription in times of war would be totally unnecessary - we' be all rarin' to go.
Organised bloodletting, which is basically what warfare is, is basically instigated by greed, wars are the result of corporate greed egged on by politicians.
Nowadays, religious fanaticism of one sort or another has been thrown into the mix and inn many cases religion is a thin veneer added on to disguise what lies belief.
Wars are not caused by individuals hating each other - we are schooled to hate our "enemy" in times of war.
I don't recall any war throughout history that has been decided by referendum - would be interested to know if there ever has been one.
"We cannot stop others from being assholes; we can only stop ourselves from being assholes"
Can't disagree with that one, but I'm sure we're not talking about the same "assholes"!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Perpetual war
From: Ed T
Date: 27 May 16 - 08:33 PM

Consider tribalism, as a root cause of confluct (big or small) whether the stated cause be race, religion, colour, ethnic group, historic or property disagreement, governing system, economic approach or interest.

Conflict and Tribalism 



"We cannot stop others from being assholes; we can only stop ourselves from being assholes" Anon quote.

Subject: RE: BS: Perpetual war
From: keberoxu
Date: 27 May 16 - 05:41 PM

Does anyone here recall what the historical roots are with Switzerland and its neutrality? I don't, I would have to do some reading of other people's research. Did the people of today's Switzerland always have a neutral outlook, did it come from their ancestors? Or did their forebears learn it the hard way, by getting sick and tired of fighting with their quote-unquote neighbors?

Subject: RE: BS: Perpetual war
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 16 - 02:55 PM

Humans have a natural propensity towards violence"
No they haven't - if that was true, there are a hell of a lot of humans, so we really should go out in body armour every night.
I think I've only ever personally encountered violence once in my life (having lived in rough areas in three of our major cities)- when I was beaten up by three Chelsea supporters (not sure supporting Chelsea qualifies them as being human)
The overwhelming mass of humanity is peaceful by inclination - television and violent video games are impinging on humaities acceptence of violence, but hopefully, like pop music, they'll grow out of that.
I genuinely believe this has always been the case, even moreso nowadays,

Favourite poem.

The Man He Killed
Thomas Hardy

"Had he and I but met
By some old ancient inn,
We should have sat us down to wet
Right many a nipperkin!

"But ranged as infantry,
And staring face to face,
I shot at him as he at me,
And killed him in his place.

"I shot him dead because —
Because he was my foe,
Just so: my foe of course he was;
That's clear enough; although

"He thought he'd 'list, perhaps,
Off-hand like — just as I —
Was out of work — had sold his traps —
No other reason why.

"Yes; quaint and curious war is!
You shoot a fellow down
You'd treat if met where any bar is,
Or help to half-a-crown."

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Perpetual war
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 May 16 - 11:38 AM

'I've never met a human being who has ever expressed a desire to kill anybody'

I have, while Prison Visiting. I actually met two over the years. Both reasonably young and both entirely without scruple regarding killing in certain circumstances. I'm not qualified to diagnose psychopathy, but these two may have had mindsets along those lines. I had no doubt at all that they meant it; one had proved it.

I find pacifism difficult to embrace completely. If my life, my loved ones, my home or my country were to be attacked/threatened I would feel entitled to protect them by a counter-attack.
I tend to agree that human beings have an instinct to violence. But surely we could learn to subdue and control that within ourselves? (Probably not - I don't hold out much hope actually!)
I think it's age, but it's got so that I avoid anything horrendous on the News now. I seem to get very upset, and as there's nothing I can do, I turn it off, stick my old head in the sand and get on with my knitting.

Subject: RE: BS: Perpetual war
From: Stu
Date: 27 May 16 - 11:21 AM

Humans have a natural propensity towards violence, our societies are steeped in it. From the thugs kicking the shite out of each other outside the pubs and bars at the weekends, the endless feuds and conflicts over religions etc, our entertainment is saturated with the most appalling violence we don't even bat an eyelid at now.

Our violence towards the natural world is killing it and us, and still we don't have the collective will to stop it now; our inaction forces untold suffering on people unable to defend themselves.

We are selected by evolution to be violent, and nothing we can do will ever stop that. Individually we might be able to arrest our urge to violence even in extreme situations, but collectively we have an almost lunatic bloodlust.

Subject: RE: BS: Perpetual war
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 May 16 - 11:08 AM

.. don't get me started on how utterly evil I think 'conscription' is...!!! 😠

Subject: RE: BS: Perpetual war
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 16 - 10:58 AM

"As a species we're too stupid not to fight."
As a species we are never given the choice - can't remember a referendum on war in my lifetime.
As the human - turned zombie-like creatures used to say in 'Journey Into Spave' - "orders must be obeyed without question at all times.
I've never met a fellow human being who has ever expressed a desire to kill anybody - not voluntarily anyway.
It's far to easy to blame humanity as a whole for wars - 'tain't like that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Perpetual war
From: mkebenn
Date: 27 May 16 - 09:52 AM

Perhaps I've become old and bitter, but it seems to me that the loss of trees and mountain tops, not to mention countless loss of species is of greater harm than the human folk we manage to kill off.Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Perpetual war
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 May 16 - 09:48 AM

Since I was teenager, I've firmly believed that most of the individuals who actively seek political/religious power at the highest levels
are ticking timebomb sociopaths... 😟

Subject: RE: BS: Perpetual war
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 27 May 16 - 09:08 AM

I will grant that humans have always been beating on each other, but conflicts have always ended. There have been periods of peace between wars. Even today, it's not hard to imagine a future where two specific warring parties settle their differences and enter a period of peace.

But it has become nearly impossible to imagine a future where my country, The United States of America, is not actively involved in some conflict somewhere. I don't think my grandchildren will ever know a time when there are no US soldiers shooting at, US planes dropping bombs on, or US drones shooting missiles at someone in some foreign country. That is the definition of perpetual war.

Subject: RE: BS: Perpetual war
From: Stu
Date: 27 May 16 - 03:25 AM

As a species we're too stupid not to fight.

Subject: RE: BS: Perpetual war
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 May 16 - 03:03 AM

I was young when WW2 had just ended, but the aftermath was pretty grim. I also saw the Korean War the Suez Crisis, the Vietnam War and the terrible events in Rwanda. As a young woman we were all afraid of the Cold War and The Bomb. During the recent civil war in Ivory Coast, men were lobbing hand grenades into civilian compounds, killing women and babies.
I reckon war is the result of anger, hatred and greed, often fuelled by poverty, fear and religious fanaticism. I'm afraid all these are part of the psyche of many human beings.
I watched an item on TV just last night about the appalling events following Hiroshima. It was unbearable and I had to switch off. I remember my father saying "Served them bloody right. Look how they treated our men as POWs!"
I'm quite old now, and I despair of there ever being worldwide peace.
The trickle of blood seems to be a total inundation. I shan't be too sad to have to leave this world to be honest.

Subject: RE: BS: Perpetual war
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 16 - 02:38 AM

Because we have been encouraged to believe that war is the answer to every political question.
It is not!

Subject: RE: BS: Perpetual war
From: Donuel
Date: 26 May 16 - 11:05 PM

This old saw,
"when HASN'T there been war?",
is no valid or reasonable proof or excuse for perpetual war. In fact there may have been stress free times of peace. Like the 6 o'clock news, history does not always cover the unsensational.


gnu, my response to every part of your exposition is, me too.

I have done a painting of 'perpetual war' without using the color red.

Rap, I have done a painting of the museums and Cathedrals along a river of blood using only the color red.

There is no overarching point here except I am proud of each of them and the reason I did them 10 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Perpetual war
From: gnu
Date: 26 May 16 - 10:31 PM

Well said, Rap. Well said.

Subject: RE: BS: Perpetual war
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 May 16 - 10:05 PM

So when in the entire history of humanity HASN'T there been a war going on somewhere?

Civilization is just a lovely city of cathedrals and museums and libraries and wonderful things on the bank of a river down the middle of which flows a trickle of blood. Sometimes the river overflows its banks.

Subject: BS: Perpetual war
From: gnu
Date: 26 May 16 - 09:57 PM

I grew up in the "Vietnam" era. I now see Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya... I see it all.

I watched a clip from a movie again tonight because I wanted to share it and make a statement on a Facebook page that is "related". It's a page about our destruction of the environment... the forests. How odd is that? To liken the assault on our forests with the wholesale assault on "people" in wars based on resources. Not that odd, really. That's what it is all about. War for the extraction of resources by corporations which exist to make money for investors that don't care about who dies for them to make a profit.

I know this is just me pissin in the wind. I know nothing will change. Hell, is hasn't changed for thousands of years. But, every now and then, I just wanna say fuck fracking and fuck nuclear power and fuck coal and fuck oil and fuck the wars. Why do we have to have perpetual war? Why?

Anyway... here is why. "Victory". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k26hmRbDQFw