BS: Smog & Global Warming

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 09:46 AM

I have seen the data below posted elsewhere with a slightly different slant as to the first recognition of ozone depletion. However the vitally important fact is that the problem was recognised, the cause found and largely negated over time.(Until some other chemical pops up to restart the cycle)


http://www.theozonehole.com/ozoneholehistory.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 09:36 AM

The story of ozone layer depletion and Mr. Dobsons spectrophotometer is an interesting one of old technology correcting satellite based technology. Well worth researching and reading. Bells and whistles do not always make for good science.

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 09:01 AM

"Reduced use of CFCs has healed the hole."

I hate to persist, but you are displaying that same old Keith trait of saying something that isn't true, hoping we won't notice and refusing to retract. I find it to be vulgar and fraudulent. You're supposed to be a scientist. Scientists generally try to be accurate. Now I'm moving on from this. Dunno about you.

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:54 AM

The ozone hole has not been "healed."

No but it is healing and has been healing for many years. The threat has been removed.
A rare envirenmental success.

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:53 AM

I don't deny all that, but the hole has not healed. The thing is not done and dusted.

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:51 AM

Wiki,
"The ban came into effect in 1989. Ozone levels stabilized by the mid-1990s and began to recover in the 2000s. Recovery is projected to continue over the next century,"

That is a success story in stark contrast to global warming.

" Recovery is projected to continue over the next century, and the ozone hole is expected to reach pre-1980 levels by around 2075."

It is no longer a threat to anyone or anything.
A success story.

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:39 AM

The ozone hole has not been "healed." At the present rate of recovery it's going to be at least fifty or more years before we're back to pre-CFC levels.

Smog is a bit of a dodgy concept. When we wuz lickle it generally seemed to mean those smelly radiation fogs that were made much worse (denser, smellier and more dangerous to health) by smoke particles and sulphur dioxide from domestic fires and factory chimneys and oxides of nitrogen from exhausts. These days, smog is generally understood to mean what happens when the sun shining on layers of pollution, largely generated by vehicle exhausts, trapped under temperature inversions causes deleterious chemical changes. It doesn't necessarily have to involve the water droplets of cold-weather radiation fogs. It's generally associated with large cities in topography that helps to trap the pollution. Unless the atmospheric circulation gets a move on, smogs can linger for many days and get worse by the day.

The science supporting man-made global warming is almost irrefutable (scientists never say never and don't deal in proofs on the whole). Only vested interests such as oil companies, American politicians who daren't contest their country's profligate use of oil and the occasional idiot such as Nigel Lawson are in denial.

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:17 AM

Global warming deniers, especially those directly paid by Industries that release large amounts of CO2, are now making claims that everything causes warming be it sandwiches, straws , breathing, trees etc.

When they convince people everything is respondsible it is the same as saying nothing is responsible for climate change. Nothing matters is a fake claim.

It is true sea level rise has been steadily rising for 25,000 years.
It is accelerating now beyond critical irreversible thresholds.

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 04:10 AM

Thank you to those who have helped me to understand these scientific (and important) facts. It's an area I know very little about, even though I'm a passionate defender of conserving wildlife, and protecting the planet.
I'm not entirely sure Joe, but I think that most UK folk are in agreement, as it's obvious to us that weather patterns, for example, have changed a great deal over the past few decades. (Brits are quite obsessed with the weather)
If pollution has a direct effect on, say, health (lung problems, cancer and so on) people will sit up and take notice.
I do so wish however that here in UK folk would blooming stop chucking their litter around the place. Those endless plastic water bottles and drinks cans are everywhere. Even out here in the sticks of Norfolk, the hedgerows have an amazing display of detritus.

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 02:55 AM

Sounds like there is general agreement in the UK about global warming. Is that the case?
Sure isn't the case in the U.S. Lots of people are vehemently defending their right to pollute.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 01:44 AM

The ozone hole was caused by CFCs that were used for refrigerants and aerosols.
This is a success story. Reduced use of CFCs has healed the hole.

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 05:06 PM

Senoufou. A couple of links.(probably regarded as antique now) A complex field that I have little formal knowledge of. In your own speciality you can read papers and have a gut feeling for the veracity of the content. Reading papers without formal knowledge of the subject, or relying on facets of a subject covered by wikipedia can lead to dangerous erroneous conclusions. The problem with climate change is that there are extremists, viewpoints dictated by funding and politics, and plentiful genuine research. Somewhere in the resultant morass of papers and position statements lies the truth.


https://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/JCLI-D-11-00087.1

http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/res/pi/NAO/

the one aspect of climate change that worries me is that a body of research suggests that climate tipping points can trigger rapid change. For example a pulse of warmer water reaching the Arctic and destabilising seafloor methane hydrates. The resultant belch of methane would further exacerbate a very dodgy situation.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/06/170623100414.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Jos
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 04:37 PM

The word "smog" is a combination of "fog" (a very thick mist or cloud at ground level) and "smoke". Is the smog we now get in places such as Beijing or Delhi also mixed with natural fog, or does it consist only of industrial pollution?

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 04:13 PM

I see Dave. Coal is, I know, a very smoky fuel. We had our coal fire as children, and coke for the small boiler that heated the water. The chimney sweep was forever coming to ours to clear the soot. (Most exciting to watch for the brush coming out of the chimney pot!)

Funnily enough though, I can't remember any of my classmates having asthma or breathing problems as a child. Mind you, we were out of doors at all times except when we were in school, in bed or eating dinner. And there were far fewer additives in our food.

I wonder how much longer the human race has before we're extinct?
I reckon a vicious mutated virus will finish us all off one day!

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 04:02 PM

Quite mad isn't it Raggytash? I'm always tempted to unwrap the items completely, and leave the plastic at the supermarket for them to deal with. I don't want flipping spuds in a plastic bag, nor onions nor any vegetables for that matter. The Americans seem to go for those paper grocery bags - much more eco-friendly.
Our shopping bags are either hessian or sturdy cloth ones I stitched myself from African cotton cloth (very jolly)

I hope you're soon feeling better Raggy.

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: DaveRo
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 04:01 PM

Senoufou wrote: So which fuels are the worst for causing global warming?

The fossil fuel that generates most CO₂ for a given amount if heat - or electricity generated by such a fuel. And that's coal. Wood - or 'biomass' - even old fencing - is not a fossil fuel. Trees absorb CO₂ when they grow so over 50 years or so the CO₂ released by burning wood should be reabsorbed - provided we replant the trees. Indeed, the hotter it gets the more trees will grow. The world may end up reforested in the long run - like in the carboniforous period when dinosaurs existed. But in the long run we'll be extinct.

Senoufou wrote: And what about that famous hole in the ozone layer

That was unrelated to global warming. Ozone shields us from radiation which causes skin cancer.

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 03:51 PM

Plastics !!!!!!!!!!!

I have just visited my local Co-Op

Feeling a little under the weather I bought a pack of Coleslaw (something I wouldn't normally do) in a nicely sealed box of plastic.

The nice lady at the check-out put said, very firmly sealed box of Coleslaw, into a totally superfluous plastic bag!!!

Arrrggggggggggg.............................. !!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 03:39 PM

You're always so understanding Iains, and seem to see all sides of a question :)

I do put 'getting along with one's neighbours' above getting grumpy about smoke. Often the wind blows it the other way, and our double-glazing is very tight. We and our neighbours always help each other out in a difficulty, and that's valuable.

Back to the original thread title: I do worry about the Earth and what we've done to it. It's been absolutely ruined hasn't it? And we all love our cars, flights abroad and heating. Not to mention the tsunami of blooming plastic, which is one of my particular hates, having lived at a time when there was hardly any of it in our daily lives.

Do you happen to know if the displacement north of the Jet Stream is a result of global warming? It seems to be bringing ghastly storms and torrential rain which we didn't have before in the winter.

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 03:17 PM

Senoufou. As you present the case it does create a dilemma. No easy answers. I think your present solution is a way out. I suspect others would pursue a more rigorous approach, but your way enables sleep at night without twinges of conscience.

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 02:47 PM

Thank you for those links Iains. You're correct, Creosote is banned here, and Creocote is the permitted substitute. But the locals gather up old, rotten fencing panels which have been creosoted and burn them. Also, they look for fallen trees which are half-rotten, saw them up and use them too. They have no other form of heating, they just heat the sitting room with their wood burners.

We're very fond of these two couples, they're real old Norfolk folk, with lovely accents to match. I did once ring the Environmental Officer for Breckland without giving out names, but he just wasn't interested. So we merely shut our windows if the smoke starts up during the night. (They keep their fires burning overnight and add wood at about 2am!!)
I love open windows while I sleep; ah well...

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 02:10 PM

Senoufou. The sale of creosote is now fairly tightly controlled in the uk. I should have a quiet word with your local environmental health officer(or whatever he may be called now.) Wood smoke is barely permissable, other potentially carcinogenic pollutants are not.

As an example below:(I am not familiar with ukEU legislationd

https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/sites/KerrMcGee/docs/Creosote%20Health%20Effects%20(Tronox).pdf

Some place consider burning treated wood a major issue:


http://www.lcaqmd.net/DangeroustoBurnTreated.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 01:47 PM

Hahahaha! That should say 1952 of course!

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 01:46 PM

I'm a bit confused about
1) pollution causing human health problems
2) pollution causing global warming

I can see from your 'stovesonline' link Iains that wood burning produces quite a bit less CO2 than all the other fuels. But woodsmoke pouring in our bungalow windows, from old rotten fence panels coated with creosote, is really horrible. It may not globally warm, but it stinks the whole house out if we delay shutting all the windows! I actually think that it's not allowed to burn such nasty stuff, but our Local Authority (Breckland) is a pussycat and not very active.

We're lucky here in the countryside, as one can't hear any traffic, and Norfolk has not a single motorway. However, Norwich does have an emissions problem from cars in the main streets.
In 1982, the Great Smog killed around 4000 people in the London area. I remember it well.

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 01:42 PM

In the UK we have simply substituted on form of energy for another.
We import biomass instead of coal?
More of us have central heating, drive cars, go on foreign holidays.
Our carbon footprint is increasing. As is that of many other parts of the world.
Also our use of plastics is hardly carbon neutral, besides being a long lived pollutant.

"But what caused the permafrost to melt in the first place?"
Climate change.

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 01:25 PM

If all the unburnt carbon particles spread themselves over the snow in polar regions we could have global warming on steroids.

The London smogs were caused by temperature inversions. I used to be able to leave school early when the pea soupers were about.
If we believe government hype we have substituted coal particulates for diesel particulates(that cannot be easily seen, apart from a semicircular haze that can be seen when on motorways)
A comparison chart below
http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/fuel-CO2-emissions.html

https://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/vehicles-air-pollution-and-human-health/diesel-engines#.WmogYXnLjIU

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 01:17 PM

So it's CO2 that's the culprit and not smog?
Global warming is melting the permafrost, which is releasing yet more CO2 and methane? A vicious circle in fact.
But what caused the permafrost to melt in the first place?

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 01:00 PM

Green house gases that cause run away global warming are CO2 and Methane which is 28 times worse.

permafrost which is rotting vegetation frozen for the last 25,000 years is now thawing at an alarming rate releasing CO2 and methane in amounts rivaling man made causes.

This permafrost melting is the end of the beginning in my book.

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 12:59 PM

That's interesting Keith.
So which fuels are the worst for causing global warming? And what about that famous hole in the ozone layer? Also, what effect do car exhaust fumes have on global warming?
I'm afraid I don't know much about this, as science isn't my subject, but I'm relying on those on Mudcat who do have some knowledge to enlighten me!

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 12:37 PM

The smog we used to get was unburned carbon (soot) from burning coal which does not cause warming.
CO2 was also released but although gas produces less, much more fuel is now burned globally than back then.

Subject: RE: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 11:46 AM

I remember the terrible smogs in the early fifties in West London. You literally couldn't see a hand in front of your face, and the sulphur in the air made it a sickly yellow colour. In those days, everyone burned coal to heat their houses.
My mother tied a man's hanky round our mouths and noses, and as you say Raggytash, on arriving at school it was black. We coughed and choked, but found it immensely exciting.

Isn't the pollution nowadays mostly from car exhausts?

Here in Norfolk we're plagued by those accursed wood burners. They're very popular here, and two different neighbours bring home huge bits of wood, old pallets, fencing panels and other stuff on their tractor trailers. They cut them up in their respective front yards, and the filthy smoke pours out of their bungalow chimneys in winter. We have to keep our windows shut if the wind is westerly (happens often)

Subject: BS: Smog & Global Warming
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 09:57 AM

We are told that Global warming is on the increase due, in part, to our burning fossil fuels.

I am curious about this.

As a child in the late 50's early 60's I had to walk to school a distance of about 2 miles. I had to wear a smog mask, which, at the end of each day would be black.

I presume this was because most houses burned coal or coke. Now most houses are heated by either gas or electric central heating surely to quantities of coal & coke burnt would have reduced considerably and thus have a much lower impact on global warming then millions of household each burning an amount of fuel.

I do understand it is a global problem and that the UK is only one small nation, but did Europe, for example, not have the same usage of fossil fuels as we did.