Thought for the day - January 16, 2000

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - January 16, 2000
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 01:52 PM

Night Owl, thank you; likewise, sister.:-)

Well the book goes on to say under that poetry question:

"see Edinburgh(sic) Review, vol xxi, p.294.
Bacon's Advancement of Learning.
Also the Works quoted in a previous Theme in this Volume.

Note.-- Philosophy is here meant to signify intellectual wisdom; and poetry, that inspiration respecting truth which great poets exhibit, and which seems to be quite independent of acquired knowledge. Philosophy is cultivated reason, poetry is a moral instinct toward the True and Beautiful. To decide the question we must see what we owe on the one hand to the discoveries of our philosophers, to Socrates, Plato, Epicurus, Bacon, Newton, Locke; and on the other, for what amount and sort of truth we are indebted to the intuition and inspiration of our poets, as Homer, Milton, Dante, Shakespeare."

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - January 16, 2000
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 01:43 PM

Bald Eagle, I was making a provoking move in this 2400 year old argument just to see what happened. Plato believed that art is misleading because it is representational, and so is seductive, but is in fact a copy of something which is itself a copy of a purer ideal which is the "real" reality (sort of two Xeroxes away). Since poetry can conjure up worlds in the imagination -- i.e. one contributes to their creation -- it is even more seductive, dangerous. These would be his arguments against rock videos on MTV. (similar thing: art+ poetry+music). The study of truth should be left to reasoners, philosophers.
Aristotle, on the other hand, says that poetry is truer to the real nature of things than say history, because the poet can see into the truth of things, while history is just a mess of facts. Homer's poem about Troy is more real than the real Trojan War. The poet captures the shape of the truth, and conveys it in masterful form, particularly in myth.
In that sense it is deeper than philosophy (not that Aristotle would say that).

I am of course using poetry in the widest sense -- poesis, creative making -- not limericks. The question is: is there a truth deeper than can be reached by reasoning, or, more accurately, Truth itself which is better served by poetry. It could of course be all nonsense: there may be no higher truths at all. Makes for a good winter debate, especially if you are in Greece!!!!!

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - January 16, 2000
From: Ringer
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 01:12 PM

Peter T: In your earlier posting you say "Poetry is much the most important server of truth...". Are you strictly answering the question (ie you think poetry more truthful than philosophy) or is that a general reply?

I have to say that I have never found any truth in poetry, though I'm afraid that probably says more about me than about poetry. (I almost never bother to read the poems posted herein, not even those posted as songs, 'cos I think I was absent when poetry-appreciation was being handed out. I feel like a colour-blind man trying to understand colour.)

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - January 16, 2000
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 12:55 PM

Using Victorian laws of etiquette is not a bad idea; one can immediately see why etiquette has degenerated in the common man. Such behaviour was considered a worthy goal to achieve, a sign of education and decency, a civilized person of culture; today it is seen as a sign of weakness in the male; and a patronizing sexist gesture by some females. Rather than a decent form of personal conduct, which makes casual or formal social contact pleasant.

At one time a serious breach of etiquette would mean a sword blade or pistol ball in the gut at dawn. Sometimes, violence is attributed to someone who has tolerated verbal abuse for too long, and gone beyond the realm of normal human response.

Churchill had a mastery of the cutting use of the English language. On reading his works you are immediately struck by the fact that you can pretty well call someone, the illegitimate product of a zombies wet dream, without resorting to four letter profanity, commonly used in arguments or debates today. Watching todays parliamentary debates, one is struck by the inability to utilize decent articulation on any subject.

Here, with so many decent minded and educated people on site, it is proper that we treat each other with courtesy and respect. After all, we should act locally, and think globally. There are always ladies and children present; that being so, one would hope there are gentlemen also. I have the honour to be, ladies and gentlemen, Your obedient servant, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - January 16, 2000
From: Tony Burns
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 12:38 PM

JenEllen, Your first post about the Total Woman didn't seem all that funny to me. Replace husband with friend and use the non-gender specific form of his. Now you have some pretty good words to live by.

Your second posting (about adapting etc.) gave the context that explained why you thought the first was so funny.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - January 16, 2000
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 12:30 PM

Dear kat, that is very generous of you (as always), but I am hoping that my message to Max may solve this -- I have had this problem for a few days (it has something to do with the new version of the search function). If he can't figure it out, then maybe -- it does seem a bit weird -- but then this place is pretty weird anyway.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - January 16, 2000
From: Night Owl
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 12:15 PM

kat...my thought for the day......my respect for the person you are increases daily!

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - January 16, 2000
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 11:54 AM

Thanks, Liam.

Peter, if you can post to ones that are already started, would you like me to start one each morning, just with the title and a blank entry, then you could go in and work your majick?

kat(all lower case, thanks)

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - January 16, 2000
From: JedMarum
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 11:28 AM

Good thoughts for this day, Kat. I too wonder what my ancestors from the last turn of the century would have thought about the world you and I live in. Here we are, instant, wordlwide communicatons at our fingertips, arguing politics and philosphy with a personal familiarity that would have been unheard of to them ... I think these changes are advantages to us, but they might not have thought so!

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - January 16, 2000
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 10:47 AM

In case someone is wondering, I am unable to post new Thought for the Day threads (or any other new threads) at the moment because of computer trouble at my end or at the Mudcat end. I haven't got time to sort it out this week (I have a very tight window for posting anyway these days), so it may be intermittent for awhile. Sorry to tag onto this thread -- I seem to be able to post to existing ones. Keep up the good thoughts. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - January 16, 2000
From: JenEllen
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 02:04 AM

Peter, you slay me! :)

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - January 16, 2000
From: Peter T.
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 09:33 PM

The divorce rate worldwide is a lot higher now than at any time in history. Probably because these books have gone out of fashion (joke, joke, joke!!!).
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - January 16, 2000
From: JenEllen
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 06:32 PM

No, he doesn't,you are right. How's about this gem...

"Adapt to his way of life. Accept his friends, food, and life-style as your own. Ask him to write the six most important changes he'd like to see take place at your house. Read the list in private, an set out to accomplish these changes with a smile. Be a "Yes, Lets!" woman every day."

Any wonder WHY there was a 50% divorce rate at the time?

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - January 16, 2000
From: Peter T.
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 06:27 PM

Yes, but I'll bet he doesn't laugh as much as you do.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - January 16, 2000
From: JenEllen
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 06:23 PM

Ultimate in the lack of truth in the printed word...I have a book that was a part of my mother's belongings, and was given to me at 15. The Total Woman. Have to send you snippets, kat. You'll laugh your arse off. "Admire your husband every day. Refer to his virtues if you need a place to start. Say something nice about his body today. Put his tattered ego back together with compliments.." I read it to my husband, while laughing and pointing...

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - January 16, 2000
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 01:40 PM

Smart-arse! I send you a dandelion in honour of your being a rustic oracle!

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - January 16, 2000
From: Peter T.
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 12:30 PM

Not to worry. I offer you some Holly and Mistletoe.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - January 16, 2000
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 12:25 PM

sorry for the typos!

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - January 16, 2000
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 12:04 PM

well, the full title, for starters continues to say, "embracing
The Laws of etiquette and Good society, and
containing Plain and Simple Instructions in the Art of Appearing to the Best Advantage on all Occasions; How to dress well and tastefully; with rules for courtship, marriage, etc., etc.
showing
How To Wite A Good Hand,
and how to expres written thought in a correct and elegant manner, with instructions in composition, oratory, writing poetry, writing for the press, etc.,etc.
being
A Practical Guide to the Preparation of Business and Legal Dcouments,
Bills, recipts, commercial Forms, resolutions for Public Meetings, Private and Public Corespondence, Letters of SYmpathy, Frienship, Courtesy, Affection, etc., etc.
Enrished with
Full and Carefully Prepared Tables of Reference,
containing imposrtant historical, biographical, geographical, scientific and other useful knowledge.
Illustrating
The Art of Making Home Happy,
wiht rules for games, recreations, home amusements, tableaux, etc., etc.
Containing
Valuable Household Receipts (sic), and Showing How to make the most of everything.
Forming
A Complete and Comprehensive Book of Reference,
expressly designed to meet the every-day wants of the American people.
by James D. McCabe.
Author ofThe Pictorial History of the World, The Centennial History fo the United States, etc. etc.
Published by
The National Publishing Co.,
Philadelphia, PA., Chicago, ILL, St. Louis, MO. and Atlanta, GA.

I will post the titels of sections in a little bit, if you'd like and also look up some of those rules. They have by-laws, etc. for the debating societies, very formal structure.

Thanks, Peter, it is a fun book to share. Also has the complete Language and Sentiment of Flowers, example: A rosebud, divested of its thorns, but retaining its leaves, conveys the sentiment, "I fear no longer; I hope;" thorns signify fears, and leaves hopes. Or, to say, "By foresight you will surmount your difficulties.", one is advised to use Holly=Foresight and Mistletoe=you will surmount your difficulties.

katlaughing

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - January 16, 2000
From: Peter T.
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 10:29 AM

Any more excerpts would be great. If you could post some of the etiquette rules, we could probably use them here....

I have yet to see a really good book on the Lyceum circuits -- they were far superior to television, got people out of the house, brought people shows about the Mystic East, paid Thoreau's bills, got Oscar Wilde to the Wilde West, and made the time pass with entertaining charlatans and experts. The lecture circuit and the debating society are now practically confined to universities and special events, more's the pity. If the Internet brings that back (except, alas, for the getting out of the house part, then it will have earned its keep).
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - January 16, 2000
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 10:15 AM

LOL, Peter! And, love your answers! Thanks!

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - January 16, 2000
From: Peter T.
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 10:04 AM

(1)Was the Execution of Mary Queen of Scots Justifiable? remains an interesting question: at what point is a state justified in using violence against its internal enemies, particularly if they have been tempted into a plot by that government so as to reveal themselves. When does temptation become entrapment? And justifiable to whom -- God, the body politic, the international community? Most governments in the 16th century couldn't figure out why Elizabeth hadn't strangled her the day she arrived in custody.

(2)No, except in fireworks. The Chinese had the right priorities.

(3) No and No.

(4) Novel reading tends to undermine moral tendencies, which is its value.

(5) Poetry is much the most important server of truth, which is why Plato wanted it strictly controlled.

Three more famous questions for winter Lyceums:

"Were Brutus and his friends right to kill Julius Caesar?"
"If Women were Enfranchised, Would that Undermine their Innate Superiority over Men?"
"Is Beauty in the Eye of the Beholder?"

yours, Peter T.

(P.S. love it, kat!!)

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - January 16, 2000
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 08:51 AM

WD, I love your cat pix and I DIDN'T say the 21st Century is NOW! Key-riced! I am one of the biggest loudmoths about it not happening until next year, it was just a *future* sight type of statement, okay? Ever read Jay Gould's book? **BG** And, uh, could you get your wife to vouch for you? So...now maybe we're both making waves in all those countries. BTW, did you see all of the discussions we had on the date thing just before & at the new year? Lots!

Thanks for yer input!

katlaughingwithtongueincheek

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - January 16, 2000
From: Wincing Devil
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 12:56 AM

Wet Blanket Time:

Clickez ici

I'm not trying to be anal-retentive, I just worship facts. And like any religious zealot, I think everyone should be like me and bow to the great goddess Truth. On the other hand, I try to be tolerant. Sometimes I come off like a jerk, and I'm not, ask my wife (on 2^nd thought, better not disturb her right now!).

I find it fascinating that the internet can make me instantly unpopular in over 122 foriegn countries, almost immediately.

Wincing Devil
There is no such thing as an ugly cat (http://www.ILoveMySphynx.com

Subject: Thought for the day - January 16, 2000
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 12:11 AM

In an old book I have, National Encyclopedia of Business and Social Forms etc., published in 1884, is a section on Lyceums & Debating Societies. Being quite proper and Victorian, it has everything spelled out, in fine detail, of how to organise and run one.

The book was given to my aunt in 1925, by a person who was then 90 years old. Auntie is alive and well at 89 now, and almost as well-versed in the Internet and email as her 80 year old sister; the only two left living from my mom's family, since mom passed on a year ago this next Tuesday.

One section of the book is called Questions for Discussion by Societies and includes such topics as
"Was the Execution of Mary Queen of Scots Justifiable?";
"Has the Invention of Gunpowder been of Benefit to Mankind?";
Does Virtue necessarily produce Happiness, and does not Vice necessarily produce Misery in the Life";
"Has Novel-reading a Moral Tendency?"; and
"Which has done the greater Service to Truth: Philosophy or Poetry?"

Under each of those is a list of suggested works to refer to.

It occured to me while looking those over, that what we really have here at the Mudcat is the 21st Century equivalent of those seemingly outmoded Societies. I am sure my ancestors never would have believed a little over one hundred years later that people would be sitting, alone, in their homes, having the same sort of discussions, allbeit without the rigid rules of Victorian etiquette, on little machines which lighted up and were connected somehow to one another by wires and strange orbs in the sky.

Somehow, I like the idea of people taking the time to converse on such learned subjects as we do, here, as well as those which are more light-hearted. It gives me a connection to the past and hope for the future of my grandsons, who someday may tell everyone about their hip grannie who had this ancient old PC and the wonderful people whom she called her friends who visited with her on it.

luvyaKat