'Roma' or 'Gypsy' Jazz?

Subject: RE: 'Roma' or 'Gypsy' Jazz?
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 01 Jul 25 - 04:45 PM

Very interesting, Phil d'Conch. Your posts usually take some deciphering but I got it. For what it's worth in the Summer when the humidity is low they shut the woods down at noon so logging starts early, before dawn, when the Wildcats are still out. So of course they call it wildcat logging (my take) usually done by gyppos:)

Gyppo loggers with a D4 Cat

Subject: RE: 'Roma' or 'Gypsy' Jazz?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 01 Jul 25 - 03:00 PM

Meself: Don't know how I missed that. All apologies.

Nick: I think your reply will work fine for Meself, however, for Jack, & others' concerns, maybe not so much. The Americans treat it like "black." Culture is upper case, complexion will be lower.

When Paperback's American donkey engine was rigged for chain it had a "wildcat" sprocket however, the British one had a "gypsy." I've never seen the latter written upper case, nor heard it considered racist. AFAIK nobody knows where they got that one from. fwiw, what Bahamian & Floridian Greeks called it would have got my young mouth washed out with soap in both upper and lower case.

More to the subject, most jazz age hot jazz (Django/Grappelli &co.) wouldn't be 'Gypsy' or 'Roma' or 'Romani' or whathaveyou. You'll need to learn artists, producers and target audiences to sort things for yourself. Change any one of the three and the result with differ.

Subject: RE: 'Roma' or 'Gypsy' Jazz?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 01 Jul 25 - 11:40 AM

Jack Campin: "US mass media have a particularly discreditable history of anti-Gypsy racism and ethnic stereotyping that uses that name. Nobody outside the US had the same issue"

I don't know about US media on this issue, but I do know that twenty years ago, prejudice against Gypsies helped to keep hate talk alive when people were still ashamed to use it against other cultures in public. I worked in that engineering office.

BTW don't forget the big overlap between this genre and klezmer, which I think dates back to Jewish weddings in pre- WWII (Eastern) Europe when the band often included Gypsies as well as Jewish klezmorim. The Hungarian band Muzikas did a lovely record about 20-odd years ago, which was based on a project where they Gypsy musicians which of their tunes they especially associated with Jewish music.

Subject: RE: 'Roma' or 'Gypsy' Jazz?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 01 Jul 25 - 03:54 AM

If I was King of the World or had anything personal at stake (neither of which is anywhere close to being the case), I would say that if you must adopt this sort of name then at least make it be "Romani Jazz" rather than "Roma Jazz."

"Roma" simply does not work grammatically nor is it very satisfactory to use by people of and knowledgeable about the ethnic community.

Subject: RE: 'Roma' or 'Gypsy' Jazz?
From: meself
Date: 01 Jul 25 - 02:03 AM

"Firstly if you want to show respect then spell Gypsy with a capital G" - In case there's any confusion about the matter, the only small-G Gypsy in this thread was within a quotation copy-and-pasted from Wikipedia.

Subject: RE: 'Roma' or 'Gypsy' Jazz?
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 30 Jun 25 - 08:19 PM

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyppo_logger

Once again a dumb ideological idea backfires

Subject: RE: 'Roma' or 'Gypsy' Jazz?
From: GerryM
Date: 30 Jun 25 - 08:07 PM

There's a Roma Country Music Festival https://romarevealed.com.au/event/roma-country-music-festival/
Spoiler: it's held in Roma, Queensland, Australia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma,_Queensland

Subject: RE: 'Roma' or 'Gypsy' Jazz?
From: Nick Dow
Date: 30 Jun 25 - 07:57 PM

Let's get this straight. Firstly if you want to show respect then spell Gypsy with a capital G, in accordance with the resolution of the Gypsy Council. Secondly Gypsy is an accepted word for an English Romany. Traveller is a term used for those who have adopted the Romany life but have not been born to it, and yes that does mean most of the Irish Travellers and some Scottish, and before anybody questions that, it does not matter how many generations have been on the road, or if they have mixed Romany blood (they are Didcois). Most Irish Travellers are descended from those dispossessed in the potato famine and are brought up with a hatred of the British, the Romanies and settled folk. Yes there are Irish and Welsh Romany's. Roma refers to European Gypsies, and New Age refers to the modern itinerant Traveller.
All have their cultures, all have their music. Attitudes to each other vary between factions, and settled and itinerant people.
I have known all factions and camped and lived with them, yes including the New Age. Music of any description has name tags for convenience. Close examination shows this, and too much dissection shows that convenience wins over ethnicity. English Blues is a good example. Roma Jazz is as meaningless in the same way but probably refers to European Gypsy Jazz. What am I? I am a Gorgio man unusually married to a Romany wife who was on the road in her youth. We Travelled for about eight years and I love and understand the Romany Folk and their songs. Yes I also love Gypsy Jazz, I wish I could play it.

Subject: RE: 'Roma' or 'Gypsy' Jazz?
From: meself
Date: 30 Jun 25 - 06:47 PM

"Nary a mention of the genre label as a negative on the wiki" - except for this: 'The term "gypsy jazz" may be considered offensive, as the word "gypsy" has historically been used as a slur against Romani people.'

Subject: RE: 'Roma' or 'Gypsy' Jazz?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 30 Jun 25 - 03:12 PM

Gypsy jazz

Nary a mention of the genre label as a negative on the wiki.

There never was a more hegemonic stereotype generator than Hollywood, U.S. of A.. Cher complains but admits to the snake oil and prostitution in the same verses.

The more everyday American street level pejorative would be 'traveler.' But… big ass but here… an African American, Southern Baptist, asphalt sealcoating 'contractor' is still running the 'Traveler scam.' Like a 'Jew' in other contexts (eg: cheap, stingy,) being Roma is neither here nor there in American English.

“Roma Jazz” is the current politically correct generational shuffling of the genre label deck chairs. I doubt Django ever used manouche in general reference to his jazz. The more common record store bin label in its day was “hot jazz” or “hot club.”

And the “CP” in NAACP stands for “African American” and tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow....

Subject: RE: 'Roma' or 'Gypsy' Jazz?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jun 25 - 12:06 PM

The only term I've ever heard in the U.S. is "Gypsy Jazz." I've never heard anyone object to the term, although I have heard people say it's wrong to call people "gypsies."

Subject: RE: 'Roma' or 'Gypsy' Jazz?
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 30 Jun 25 - 11:49 AM

Side issue: When Gypsies have their children baptised in church, they're in their best clothes and on their best behaviour. Herself (who was doing verger duty) has observed this at close quarters, and was seriously impressed.

Subject: RE: 'Roma' or 'Gypsy' Jazz?
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 30 Jun 25 - 11:40 AM

It's an Old Enemy grudge, like the Englishman's congenital rudeness about the Welsh and the French.

Subject: RE: 'Roma' or 'Gypsy' Jazz?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jun 25 - 11:40 AM

I have to agree with Meself - I'm not aware of any particular US anti-Gypsy/Roma stereotyping, but it is commonplace here in the UK, where it is a gross insult to call someone a 'Gypo', the inference being that that person is dirty, or a thief, or both.

My contacts in the Gypsy-jazz world still refer to it by that name, or 'Manouche'. I've never heard anyone refer to it as 'Roma-jazz', in fact to my ears it sounds...errrmm...ridiculous. Anyone involved in Gypsy-jazz knows precisely what the team means and it is not intended as any kind of insult - rather the opposite in fact, players of Gypsy-jazz have a tendency to be very good indeed.

Subject: RE: 'Roma' or 'Gypsy' Jazz?
From: meself
Date: 30 Jun 25 - 10:52 AM

Mayomick: "possibly a reference to Roma street performers' improvised music ?" No - a sample was played on the radio show, and it was of the Hot Club of France variety.

Jack: I'm surprised by your post. Other than in the odd TV show or movie, I've never seen any particularly "anti-Gypsy racism and ethnic stereotyping" coming from the US. Although I was long ago apprised of the existence of anti-Gypsy prejudice in North America, I in fact never observed any anti-Gypsy prejudice until I started reading posts from Brits on mudcat, and, subsequently, comments largely from Brits under youtube videos. Very much something I associate far more with Britain and Europe generally than with anywhere else ... ?

Subject: RE: 'Roma' or 'Gypsy' Jazz?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Jun 25 - 10:37 AM

In the US "Gypsy" is considered an offensive term, maybe because US mass media have a particularly discreditable history of anti-Gypsy racism and ethnic stereotyping that uses that name. Nobody outside the US had the same issue - this is probably another instance of Americans projecting their own racism on the rest of the world by stigmatizing words that have little if any negative connotation elsewhere.

Subject: RE: 'Roma' or 'Gypsy' Jazz?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 25 - 05:21 AM

And then there is the well-established Roma Jazz Festival...

Subject: RE: 'Roma' or 'Gypsy' Jazz?
From: mayomick
Date: 30 Jun 25 - 05:15 AM

possibly a reference to Roma street performers' improvised music ?

Subject: RE: 'Roma' or 'Gypsy' Jazz?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Jun 25 - 04:19 PM

How about "manouche"? It's obscure enough not to miscredit or insult anyone.

Subject: 'Roma' or 'Gypsy' Jazz?
From: meself
Date: 28 Jun 25 - 11:28 AM

I heard a festival organizer on the radio this morning talking about 'Roma Jazz' - it took me a second to realize that he was referring to what I'd always heard of as 'Gypsy Jazz' - so, I was just wondering if this was just one guy trying to be sensitive and considerate - or 'politically correct', if you prefer - or has 'Roma Jazz' become the accepted term for the Django stuff?

I don't have any particular feelings about the matter; if people of the ethnicity in question want the music called 'Roma Jazz', fine by me, but if they don't care, then I don't care. I believe we have a couple of members here who are of or closely connected to the Roma people, so ... ?