to being or not to being?

Subject: RE: to being or not to being?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Feb 00 - 07:20 PM

And then again, the "Sanctity of Life" is a religous proposition and should bever be the subject of policy discussions in government.

Likewise the Sanctity of Marriage, which is a phrase used by the dramatically overconservative to elicit support against legalizing gay marriages. Some folks just don't know where the line of their own concerns ends.

A

Subject: RE: to being or not to being?
From: thosp
Date: 06 Feb 00 - 07:03 PM

soooooo by the same reasoning --belief in equal rights is a religion and therefore has no place in government?

peace (Y) thosp

Subject: RE: to being or not to being?
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Feb 00 - 03:27 PM

Oh, it was "leave their husbands and kill their children!"

Subject: RE: to being or not to being?
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Feb 00 - 02:59 PM

Well said, paddymac.

I hope Young will also be ready to have Pat Buchanan muzzled next time he preaches government determination of a woman's right to choose or a gay person's right to live! Remember Buchanan's claim that feminism causes women to practise witchcraft, leave their children, become lesbians, and something else as stupid, which I forget. I think it is in one of the Bumper Sticker threads.

Thosp, thank you very much for bringing this to our attention. I listen to a lot of Native American radio online at www.airos.org (Americn Indian Radio On Satellite.) I will have to check their archives of Native Calling (talk show) to see if they've done any discussions on this.

katlaughingavowedtreehugger!

Subject: RE: to being or not to being?
From: paddymac
Date: 05 Feb 00 - 01:14 PM

Thosp's post raises several important questions. SLAPP suits are certainly not unique to areas involving "public participation". They are commonly used where ever the plaintiff thinks that the economic pressure of litigation will help his cause. The most common area of abuse in my experience is in criminal law, where defendants are denied effective counsel, or appeal, simply because they can't afford it or the cost/benefit ratio doesn't support it. There are periodic thrusts to "solve" the problem, but the solutions, on closer examination, often pose a greater threat than the "problem".

The question of whether "environmentalism is religion" has both a Yes and a No answer. The distinction seems to depend on the degree and quality of quantifiable evidence (i.e.; "science"). We live in an age where religious fundamentalism of many varieties is never far from the headlines or lead stories. The majoritarian view of US culture is that of a "judaeo-christian" perspective, and the depth and breadth of the rebirth of paganism in the culture is generally not well recognized. Lest we get lost in the trappings of any individual belief system, paganism is generally described as any belief system in which the god or gods tend to be nature-based. Much of what has been encompassed under the rubric of environtmentalism over the years has been based on good science, or at least found to be consonant therewith as time moved on, but there has also been much that is based on "belief" rather than "science". To be fair, this thing called "science" has also achieved a "religious " nature in some sectors. Without getting in any deeper, my personal view is that we would do better to treat each other with respect and honestly seek to work together on a rational basis. Name calling, however hig or low brow, isn't very productive of good outcomes.

Subject: RE: to being or not to being?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Feb 00 - 11:13 AM

Very interesting. Que sera, sera .

Art

Subject: RE: to being or not to being?
From: sophocleese
Date: 05 Feb 00 - 10:10 AM

What? Bizarre. I agree with the comment that if they complain that activists are worshipping trees the loggers are as guilty of determining policy based on the worship of money, or of some nebulous deity quaintly referred to as 'progress'. Something a little closer to say Satanism, through Mammon, than tree worship. Any of the logs they wish to cut down destined to grace a religious building? Probably a mixture of deep ecology and shallow ecology would be the best, a deep end to dive into and a shallow end for learning how to swim. No matter what science can or cannot say it still comes down to a belief system of some kind or other in how the findings are applied. Thanks for bringing this up thosp, something to fix my morning rant on.

Subject: to being or not to being?
From: thosp
Date: 05 Feb 00 - 08:33 AM

Well wadaya think of this ?

_ Tree Worship

If the government protects a forest, is it a religious act? The courts will soon decide.

by Kimberly Lisagor Jan. 21, 2000

Environmentalism is a religion!

At least, so say the Minnesota loggers who are suing the US Forest Service and two environmental groups on the grounds that their eco-minded actions violated the separation of church and state.

According to the complaint filed by the loggers last October, the activist groups influenced the Forest Service by promoting their "religion of Deep Ecology" in order to stall logging permit approvals. The delay, they argue, was inspired by the Deep Ecology premise that nature is sacred and therefore should be preserved -- a clear case of religion determining public policy.

The loggers want nearly $600,000 in damages. More notably, they want an injunction that would keep the two environmental groups, New Mexico's Forest Guardians and Minnesota's Superior Wilderness Action Network (SWAN), from preaching their so-called religous beliefs in order to influence USFS policy. A Minnesota judge will decide whether or not to let the case proceed in the coming weeks. If it is thrown out, the loggers plan to appeal.

On the surface, this case looks like what environmental lawyers call a SLAPP suit -- Strategic Litigation Against Public Participation -- whose intent is not to win, but to divert nonprofit groups' resources from activism to legal defense. But the loggers insist their goal is loftier than temporary financial paralysis: They aim to silence activists nationwide. If they can prove that religion inspired Forest Service decisions in this case, they say, their ruling could apply to future cases.

"If we can make this point, it applies to the whole environmental movement," says Stephen Young, the attorney representing the loggers. The point: "Don't have the government enforce your beliefs."

"If they're claiming we worship green," retorts Ray Fenner, director of SWAN, "then they worship a different kind of green -- the one with George Washington on it."

As wacko as the loggers' accusation may seem, similar cases have held up in court in recent years. Developers in several Native American land disputes have argued successfully that the protection of "sacred" natural areas is based on religious belief, not scientific concern for the environment. And in May, a New York district judge ruled to suppress a public school's Earth Day celebration, in part because the children's songs and poems to Mother Earth were interpreted as incantations to a deity-like figure.

While the question of whether or not Deep Ecology is a religion has become the focus of the debate, the greater issue is that the loggers are attempting to suppress the activists' right to speak, says SWAN attorney Tom Buchele of the Environmental Law and Policy Center in Chicago.

Even if the courts deem Deep Ecology a religion, Buchele says, silencing its followers would violate their freedom of speech. "Churches have participated in public policy debates in this country since the very beginning," he says. "I don't think these groups should be muzzled."

But Young -- who made an unsuccessful run for Senate in 1996 and whose current political goal is to unify Pat Buchanan and Minnesota governor Jesse Ventura to form a strong conservative alliance -- insists that a little bit of muzzling would do the environmental movement some good.

"We need a scientific approach to the management of forests," he says. "It's no great harm done to the human race and the planet if we ask environmentalists to come back to 'shallow ecology.'"

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peace (Y) thosp