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The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: GUEST,Paul Burke Date: 19 Dec 00 - 11:51 AM The ideal instrument for evangelicals is the guillotine. |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: GUEST,Marion Date: 18 Dec 00 - 09:38 PM And for those of you who do go visit the Ship of Fools (here's the link again), be sure the check out the Fruitcake Zone! Their descriptions of the links are very humourous even when the links themselves are not. Marion |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Sorcha Date: 18 Dec 00 - 07:05 PM Can we consider the ability/talent/craftmanship of the maker as opposed to "Folk Art"? The thing is tacky, but the craftsmanship involved is incredibly. Too bad somebody didn't have better taste..........I don't even like looking at it. As stated, it's too busy, too complicated, too over the top. Art? I suppose, in a broad definiton.
OK, we Pagans want equal time!!! Where is the Gibson with Misletoe, Horned Gods, moons, etc? ;) (joke, joke) Or maybe a Muslim guitar with crescents, Hands of Fatima, etc.........Jewish guitars with Mogen Doveds, Masada, menorah,........STOP SORCHA, JUST STOP.........(bye now) |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Burke Date: 18 Dec 00 - 06:46 PM I already said folk might not be the best term for it. It doesn't seem very commercial to me, though. It looks like Gibson spent a lot for something to put in their museum. I doubt it will increase their sales all that much.
The Tribute to the Birth of Christ will be on display at the Gibson Bluegrass Showcase in Opry Mills in Nashville, Tennessee, during the Christmas 2000 and 2001 New Year's seasons. Afterwards, the instrument will remain in Gibson Guitar Corp.'s permanent collection of unique and treasured instruments. Here's more on the context of the creation of the guitar. I find it hard to despise it. |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: mousethief Date: 18 Dec 00 - 05:36 PM Near as I can tell from a short search of online resources, "folk art" is defined by the artsy-fartsy types as "art produced by self-taught artists." Can be commercial or non-commercial by this definition. Alex |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Bert Date: 18 Dec 00 - 05:23 PM Well as I said first, 'the art is debatable'. I'll concede that some people might consider it art but I don't, excellent craftsmanship yes, but not art. However, I still don't see where the 'folk' comes in. Folk to me, is something that is NOT done for commercial reasons. This guitar is just another commercial product and is as much 'folk' as a new car. |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: mousethief Date: 18 Dec 00 - 04:57 PM I am very "involved" in both guitars and Jesus, and that guitar moves me in only one direction, and not the one the maker presumably intended. |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: John Hardly Date: 18 Dec 00 - 10:09 AM I'd give just about anything for a Bourgeois guitar! |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: GUEST,Russ Date: 18 Dec 00 - 09:54 AM Bert, Depends on what you mean by "folk art." I don't know if a person with a professional "involvement" in "folk art" (e.g., academic, gallery owner) would take my criteria seriously. They are just my own generalizations about art which has been deemed "folk". My post is just about my own personal use of the term "folk art." Feel free to dismiss it. HOWEVER, I am willing to grant the status of ART to the guitar. To me, the question whether something is art is not a very interesting one and I prefer to err on the side of inclusivity. To me the interesting question is whether something is GOOD art. Some people I have discussed aesthetics with are nervous about the value judgments implied by the terms "good" and "bad" and avoid them. However, they still manage to pack a lot of value judgments into their criteria for art. Burke, "folk art" might not be the best term but I'm not knowledgeable enough to know what the terminological options are. None of my friends are professionally involved in folk art, so I have no one to ask. I know that there is something called "Outsider art" but I don't know it well enough to know if a professional guitar maker could properly be called an "outsider" in this respect. I think what we are looking for is a way of categorizing the guitar that puts it above (at least to some extent) the obvious criticisms voiced in this thread. I would not take the guitar as a gift, but it is so over the top that I think that it transcends the usual criticisms. Whatever that guitar is supposed to be or do or represent, it does a great job. Bill D, excellent point. A friend suggested that the guitar is really no tackier than the Sistine chapel ceiling. |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Bill D Date: 15 Dec 00 - 06:32 PM well...I suppose that if you are VERY involved with both guitars and Jesus, then that instrument represents as much to the maker as the "Pieta" did to Michelangelo...it obviously is not for just everyone, but it represents a lot of work, and no one is make ME look at it, or even asking me to be moved by it...so.......... |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Burke Date: 15 Dec 00 - 05:22 PM Russ, Thanks for the support. Your high brow/low brow analogy is a much better way to put it. I wanted to say bourgeoise, but could not remember how to spell it. Basically I was referring to attitudes of taste that disdain the unrefined & is too often reflected by the upwardly mobile trying to flee their roots. I'd like to go into more detail but lack for time. Maybe just think of the low opinion of popular music in the serious music establishment until fairly recently. Since the 60's or 70's popular music has been viewed much more seriously. Most folk music is popular music of the past that was disdained but the musical establishment. We've tried to get away from criticism of whole musical genres & try to evalute music on the terms defined by the genre. I think we should try to do the same with this type of material. Maybe folk art is not the best term for it. But lest I be thought too serious, I did laugh at my first look at it. It's not really to my taste either, I just think it needs to be evaluated according to a different aesthetic than that currently in use among so many of us. I liked Russ's helpful delination of much of it.
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Bert Date: 15 Dec 00 - 04:17 PM Ah, That must be where I'm going wrong Alex. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: mousethief Date: 15 Dec 00 - 03:49 PM I can't believe there is commercial interest in such a gaudy guitar. No, wait, I take it back. I've seen people actually BUY things that are worse. Sigh. But I think "folk art" has a specific meaning in art circles which has little or nothing to do with the folkiness of the artist. Alex |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Bert Date: 15 Dec 00 - 03:36 PM Yes Russ, everything you say is true as far as the art is concerned. But I don't see any of your criteria as appplying specifically to folk art; other than a lot of similar mistakes are made by untrained artists. The creator is certainly a great craftsman. While the same thing can be said for some folk artists, there are others who, though they may lack some technical skills, can still produce works of great artistic merit. Personally I don't see much evidence of ART in this creation for the very same reasons that you state. I had a friend in Bahrain who was an Oud player. Now he had stuck some pictures of flowers on the sound board of his Oud. He hadn't drawn these pictures himself, he just bought them and stuck them on. Just two red flowers, one each side of the sound hole. The overall effect was great. It made his Oud look special. Now that is folk art! He wanted a certain effect but worked within his own limitations to create a very artistic effect. To me the craftsman who built that guitar was just pandering to commercial interests, in the same way that some singers dress up in sequined jump suits. They may be great performers but they are not necessarily 'folk singers'. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: GUEST,Russ Date: 15 Dec 00 - 03:04 PM Bert, as soon as I saw the guitar I thought "Folk Art." As far as folk art goes I am a rank amateur, but I've seen a lot and am willing to make a few generalizations off the top of my head based upon what I've seen. The following isn't intended to be a definition of "folk art" that a scholar would take seriously. It just shows where I was coming from. To me the guitar is folk art because it embodies the following principals: More is more - More is better. Notice how "busy" the guitar is. No emptiness - The creator of the guitar decided to leave no space untouched. Not necessarily a fear of empty space. It simply never occured to him that the empty space can be as important if not more important than the "stuff." No "rewrites" - One of the hardest decisions an artist must make is to sacrifice a beloved part for the good of the whole work. Imagine a director who decides to omit his favorite scene from the final cut or a writer who deletes a favorite paragraph from a final draft. I can't read the mind of the guitar's creator, but the guitar looks more like a sketchbook than a complete work. The devil is in the details - The guitar shows an obsessive attention to the perfection of the details rather than a consider of the artistic object as a whole. It looks to me like it never occurred to the guitar's creator to step back both literally and figuratively from the instrument to view it as a whole. The medium is the message 1 - I don't see any consideration of the "appropriateness" of the medium for the creative activity. It probably never occurred to the creator to ask if a wooden guitar were the best recipient of his artistic activities. The medium is the message 2 - I see no appreciation and use of the unique characteristics of the medium. A guitar is a very interesting object in and of itself. Lots of different colors, textures, surfaces, etc. for the artist to play with. All that the guitar's creator has done is treat it as a bunch of surfaces to carve and paint on. You get the impression he's fighting the guitar rather than working with it and its strengths and limitations. Just my $.02 |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Bert Date: 15 Dec 00 - 02:26 PM Art is something that creates a mood. There seems to be some consensus in this thread as to what mood this particular object creates. I don't see where the 'folk' aspect is, it's wholly commercial. The only thing I can think of is that a horse didn't make it, or maybe... St. Peter, are you sure that's not the same guitar???? |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Grab Date: 15 Dec 00 - 02:01 PM Sure it's art. Seriously. Art is something you create to express yourself, and that means it qualifies. Other qualifying pieces of art are Cliff Richard's films, the song "Sugar Baby Love", a teenager's Ford Escort modified with a full Max Power body kit, and your 5-year-old child's painting of a house. Now whether it's _good_ art - that's a whole different question... Incidentally, that Ship of Fools site is brilliant - cheers Marion! Grab. |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: GUEST,Russ Date: 15 Dec 00 - 12:20 PM Burke, Right point, wrong words. In the US, "middle class" is so broad as to be almost meaningless and generally refers strictly to economic status. I know a number of middle classers who would think the guitar execrable and an equal number who would think it beautiful. The distinction is more a "highbrow/lowbrow" thing where we distinguish the preferences of "the masses" from those of an aesthetic elite. Bert,In spite of its "sponsorship" and ownership by a company, I think the guitar is a work of folk art if viewed in light of the implicit aesthetic criteria it satisfies. |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: mousethief Date: 15 Dec 00 - 11:55 AM I took the fairly obvious step of emailing the Ship of Fools and sending them the URL to the Jesus Guitar. They wrote a nice email back saying thanks so very much, and they are going to use it in their "12 Days of Kitschmas" spread coming soon. Cool! Alex |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Lepus Rex Date: 15 Dec 00 - 11:34 AM Hmmm... Well, the whole Jesus thing is pretty damned hideous, but I feel sort of bad typing that, because they probably made a sincere effort to create something beautiful. But it looks like one of those cheesy airbrushed half-naked bimbo with really large breasts designs on some guy named Tommy's pickup, only with Jesus. Yuck. But I DO love those gory blinking Jesus pictures. I was thinking of filling one whole wall with those... ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Whistle Stop Date: 15 Dec 00 - 11:18 AM Everyone knows that Jesus really preferred Martins. The first mention in the bible is when the angel appears to the shepards in the fields and says "Dreadnought, for I bring you tidings of great joy..." |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: GUEST,St. Peter Date: 15 Dec 00 - 01:06 AM Here then, is an alternative. |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Bill D Date: 14 Dec 00 - 08:44 PM ...I didn't look at them all, but I did love the "Last Supper wall clock" with the pivot for the hands right thru Jesus heart,,, and the Credit Card Rosary, in plastic, copper, or gold with diamonds...and the line.."The pontiff is so taken with it, he won't leave Rome without it" it simply boggles the mind....and ya' know, we pagans/agnostics/atheists etc., oughta feel left out!! They just don't MAKE neat stuff like that for us! |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Burke Date: 14 Dec 00 - 06:21 PM I actually saw the Bible Bar at a local health food store. I guess I should have bought one just to see what it tasted like. But I like those Garden Saints. St. Francis would fit right into my step-mother's garden. I always thought statues in a garden were strange but the way she's done them is really tasteful. |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Tinker Date: 14 Dec 00 - 03:41 PM Oh my..... I think I'm left speechless.... Although it's being marketed, I do feel it was crafted with care, just not my style... Blessed Be Tinker |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Bert Date: 14 Dec 00 - 02:20 PM Burke, you said.... it's the epitome of folk art. and... The people who did that guitar don't care one wit about middle class definitions of good taste. This particular guitar, if not for sale, is certainly being used to promote the sale of Gibson guitars to a middle class market. And while there is certainly a great quality in the craftsmanship, the 'art' is debatable and the 'folk' non existant. It's just a tacky commercial product. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Marion Date: 13 Dec 00 - 09:22 PM Hmm... if you think that's bad, you should check out Ship of Fools and click on "Gadgets for God". It's a quite clever Christian humour website that includes a fascinating listing of bizarre religious merchandise. Marion |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Burke Date: 13 Dec 00 - 06:23 PM I really think it's the epitome of folk art. A huge amount of our old folk music comes to us by way of people who did not give a s* about what was considered good taste or good music. They sang what they liked & 100 years later other tastes say it's great. The people who did that guitar don't care one wit about middle class definitions of good taste. They did what they like & they put their hearts into it. Someday our heirs will appreciate it.
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: SDShad Date: 13 Dec 00 - 05:04 PM Susan makes a fair point. To a lot of the evangelicals I've known in my day, just the sheer iconography of the thing would seem vaguely idolatrous, I suppose. Mind you, the Roman Catholic culture hereabouts, being the home of the Bathtub Grotto, might be more fertile ground for such a guitar.... Chris |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Bernard Date: 13 Dec 00 - 04:41 PM I prefer the cheap and tacky option - my banjo has a clear head (which is more than can be said for me...), and I just glue a picture to the piece of timber somebody so conveniently left inside. Okay, it probably holds the neck on or something, but who cares? It's great for gluing piccies to... That way, I can ring the changes as the spirit (or ex-lax!) mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmoves me... !!
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Troll Date: 12 Dec 00 - 10:03 PM Reminds me of those suits Porter Waggoner used to wear on his syndicated TV show They had so many rhinestones on them that they had to hit 'em with dulling spray or the studio lights wouldn't focus. And don't be too fast to dis Gibson. Have you ever sen the mother-of-pearl Martin that belonged to Jimmie Rodgers? troll |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Little Neophyte Date: 12 Dec 00 - 09:50 PM Oh, I'll have to go look at those sites Rick. Maybe I should buy a fancy banjo like that and a Liberaci outfit with studded white socks to match. Guess if I do that, I'll have to work on more bluegrass huh. Bonnie |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Rick Fielding Date: 12 Dec 00 - 09:16 PM OH BUT BONNY IT HAS HAPPENED TO BANJOS. MANY TIMES OVER! Both Stelling and Deering have made banjos (they may be on their websites) with virtually the same kind of...ummm...decoration. Rick |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Ebbie Date: 12 Dec 00 - 07:37 PM I do think the guitar would go really well with a velvet tapestry Elvis. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: jeffp Date: 12 Dec 00 - 07:35 PM My first reaction was "My God, this can't be real!" But it IS Gibson's site. Just how excessive is it possible to get? jeffp |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Bernard Date: 12 Dec 00 - 07:01 PM And then... he'll change his name to Pearly Gates... |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Bernard Date: 12 Dec 00 - 07:00 PM Rumour has it that Bill Gates is about to release a new version of Windows specifically for churches... Stained Glass Windows!
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Little Neophyte Date: 12 Dec 00 - 06:50 PM Good point Catspaw This could never happen to the banjo could it? Maybe it did. Guess I have to go to some kind of museum in Nashville to see how gaudy some machines got. There must be a 'Gody' banjo out there and I don't even know it. Neon Boniphyte |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: catspaw49 Date: 12 Dec 00 - 06:11 PM I think at times we all get carried away with sometning or another and then we no longer realize how far afield we've gone til one day the whole thing comes crashing down. Remember cars in the late 50's and those freakin' fins? Pretty soon the stylists got so involved with bigger and swoopier that they forgot what the thing actually was.....a car. More chrome, higher fins, bullet shaped doo-dads everywhere front and rear................I agree with someone who was thinking about the '59 Cadillac. Can you imagine all the corporate big guys, the engineers, the marketing reseach folks, the stylists and designers, the guys on the line.......EVERYBODY at Cadillac is standing out front as the first '59 model rolls off the line. Sky high fins, bullet taillights,bullets in the grille and trunk fascia, chrome everywhere....a monument to American excess. It stops in the middle of the group and there is nothing but complete silence. Then, from the midst of the crowd comes a small voice..........My gawd, what have we done? Something similar may be ready to happen at Gibson. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Troll Date: 12 Dec 00 - 05:53 PM I guess that this proves that poor taste does not always equal poor workmanship. troll |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: wysiwyg Date: 12 Dec 00 - 05:47 PM That's why I love Bert! LOL! Hmmmm... the case would have to black velevet inside with more painting. I like it. But it is kinda.... surreal. And not quite evangelical. We really oughtta get a better grip on what that term means, BTW. A lotta "religious" words get used around here with no understanding atall of what they actually mean, in terms of values or even culture. IMHO. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Bert Date: 12 Dec 00 - 05:18 PM Jon, thinks it's hideous... The term that comes to my mind is 'God Awful' |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Bill D Date: 12 Dec 00 - 05:18 PM Kinda makes you wonder what he could do with a string bass....maybe the crucifixon and Last Supper.... "De gustibus non disputandum" |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Jim Krause Date: 12 Dec 00 - 05:15 PM Oh BROTHERRRR! Well, why not? Maybe Yhoo! and Gibson got something going and are trying to compete with AOL/Time/Warner. It's all to wierd for me to figure out. Just three chords and the truth, Ma'am |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Burke Date: 12 Dec 00 - 04:32 PM Amazing! If a little known custom guitar maker had made just this one, we would call it folk art. After its makers demise it would probably be included in an exhibit at the National Art Gallery or the Smithsonian. Put it in the context of their other One of a Kind instruments. It makes a strange kind of sense. Sort of a corporate act of devotion/work of folk art. Joe, from the looks of their site, maybe they'll do a JPII Limited Edition, a little like this one. |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Mooh Date: 12 Dec 00 - 04:21 PM Check out the Acoustic Guitar magazine forum for more discussion, and the likely originator of this thread. Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Mooh Date: 12 Dec 00 - 04:12 PM Nice godtar but not exactly to my tastes, and I am a Christian, but I suppose to some folks it is glorious. Now if anyone would like to save the embarrassment of admitting ownership, please PM me to make arrangements for me to look after it permanently. Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Jon Freeman Date: 12 Dec 00 - 04:11 PM I should have added that it is a one off show piece. I don't think that Gibson would seriously consider marketing such an instrument. Jon |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Jon Freeman Date: 12 Dec 00 - 04:03 PM Joe, www.gibson.com is Gibsons site - the link is genuine. Jon |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Joe Offer Date: 12 Dec 00 - 03:46 PM It's incredibly funny, but I can't believe Gibson would really come out with a product like that. I gotta believe it's an extremely clever hack of the Gibson site. Come to think of it, I could really brighten up noon Mass with a Catholic version. I want a black Stratocaster with gold trim, with a glow-in-the-dark rosary and a Plastic Jesus in the front. On the back, maybe an icon of the Mother of Perpetual Responsibility? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Ebbie Date: 12 Dec 00 - 03:34 PM Yes, kat, elvis s here. :) Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Jon Freeman Date: 12 Dec 00 - 03:25 PM I think it is hideous. Having said that, I have to admire the skills of those who built it. Jon |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: mousethief Date: 12 Dec 00 - 03:23 PM Oooooh. Pope and the Vatican Five. I can just see it! |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: katlaughing Date: 12 Dec 00 - 03:02 PM So is this what Elvis is using these days? Or, maybe there is a secret band we don't know of, which commissioned it: Pope & the Vatican V? |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Jim Krause Date: 12 Dec 00 - 02:38 PM Art & Spaw, thankyew, thankyew verrymuch. Jim |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Ebbie Date: 12 Dec 00 - 02:11 PM Tacky. If Jim Bakker (remember him?) were a guitar player, this is the model he would have flaunted. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: catspaw49 Date: 12 Dec 00 - 01:49 PM Dear Jim, Art Thieme and I would like to welcome you into the "Incredibly Bad Pun Club." Your membership condom will be mailed to you. Its the five-in-one model so it'll fit you like a glove. Welcome aboard and welcome to you too. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: Jim Krause Date: 12 Dec 00 - 01:37 PM Pretty Goddy, if you ask me. Jim |
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Subject: RE: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: mousethief Date: 12 Dec 00 - 01:34 PM Is it just me or does this guitar seem to be in very bad taste? Ewwwww. Wonder why the person starting this thread is hiding his/her identity. Never mind, I don't want to know. Alex |
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Subject: The Perfect Instrument for Evangelicals From: GUEST,St. Peter Date: 12 Dec 00 - 01:31 PM Clicky |
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