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UK Bicentenary
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: Susan of DT Date: 20 Jan 01 - 08:30 AM Thanx Kevin. Yes, I knew the 1603, James I and was surprised when I first found that the Act of Union was 100 years later. And now that I think of it, the end of Wales as a separate Principality was probably when baby Edward III was presented to the Welsh as Prince of Wales as born in Wales and speaks no English in the early 1300s. |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Jan 01 - 08:17 AM Yer right Susanne - thanks. |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: Susanne (skw) Date: 19 Jan 01 - 06:44 PM McGrath, get your glasses on! The verse is there all right, and so are the other three I have - six in all. If you still can't see it, the third line is Here, but dinnae blaw ma kilt awa' NOM, Susanne |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: Liz the Squeak Date: 19 Jan 01 - 06:19 PM I don't wear breeks, but I do know my dragons. A Wyvern (a symbol of the old Wessex kingdom - Alfred the great and all that) is a two legged, two winged beastie. A dragon can be four legged or four legged and two winged. A wyrm (as in the Laidley worm or that one from that naughty film with Amanda Donahue in it.....) has no useable limbs (i.e., vestigal limbs like some types of snake, skinks, that sort of thing). Wales has a dragon. It has six limbs. Four legs, two wings. Don't you ever let me catch you calling it a wyvern again!!! LTS - whose house is shared with, at the last count, at least 400 dragons in different guises..... including knickers, not breeks. |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Jan 01 - 02:17 PM "Scottish Breakaway" is here in previous thread.
But not that verse, Steve - and I still can't remember the third line. (There were more -including ione about Princess Margaret: "Her sister Meg has a bonny pair of legs" - a bit dated now though.)
The other relevant date, Susan, is 1603, which is the year the King of Scotland became the King of England as well, bringing about what was referred to at the time as the United Kingdoms of Great Britain, that being the name of the island. As for Wales - well that was never a Kingdom, but a Principality, and there's never been a King of Wales. I suppose that's the excuse for not having it represented on the flag. |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: Susan of DT Date: 19 Jan 01 - 01:56 PM Do I have this straight? in 1707, the Act of Union formed Great Britain out of England (having previously swallowed Wales) and Scotland In 1801 the United Kingdom(s) was/were formed out of Great Britain + (North)Ireland When did England formally ingest Wales? 1100s? Was the resulting entity still called England? or (nongreat) Britain? |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: Bert Date: 19 Jan 01 - 11:55 AM How did those idiots miss Wales when they were designing the flag. What a wonderful flag it would have been with the Draig Goch in the middle of it. |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: Steve Parkes Date: 19 Jan 01 - 08:03 AM "Scottish Breakaway" is here in previous thread. |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Jan 01 - 07:40 AM And the tune for The Scottish Breakaway is of course The Sash. That really confuses people sometimes, republican sentiments to the tune of The Sash.
(The other song that fits well to the tune of The Sash is Kevin Barry, and the other way round...)
There's at least one other verse which goes something like:
Her man's cried the Duke of Edinbro' (a line I can't remember) |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: Steve Parkes Date: 18 Jan 01 - 11:28 AM Did anyone see the Time Team special on MacBeth? Not only was the play a pack of lies -- political propaganda for James I/VI, who was descended from Duncan -- but if MacBeth had beaten Duncan and kept his (rightful) place on the Scottish throne, the Union would probably never have happened, because Scotland would have been culturally incapable of (and disinclined for!) such a thing. Steve (Don't ask me for the ins & outs -- get a historian!) |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: Noreen Date: 18 Jan 01 - 11:18 AM Husband once went into the local public library to ask what the problem was as they were showing a distress signal (Union flag flying upside down)... |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: GUEST,Nynia (at Uni). Date: 18 Jan 01 - 10:30 AM As Keith originally suggest ede singind a song what about singing "The Scottish Breakaway".......... Oh Scotland hasnae got a king She hasnae got a queen For how can there be a second Liz When the first yin hasnae been Nae Liz the yin, nae Lilibeth the twa Nae Liz has ever been We'll mak' oor land republican When the Scottish breakaway Just think what might have been, we could have laughed at you lot being stuck wi' Maggie..............LOL Nynia :-) -) ) |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: Steve Parkes Date: 18 Jan 01 - 03:50 AM Keith, you're absolutely right, even a sailor (or a scout) would have trouble recognising a flapping flag as being upside down. But if you hoist an ensign upside down, it's perfectly obvious, since the Union is at the bottom instead of the top. (For non-UK Catters: the red white and blue ensigns consist of a flag of that colour (with a St George's cross in the case of the white) with a Union flag in the top quarter nearer to the flagpole.) The only question then is, how do you attach it to the flag halyard, since the top and bottom attachments are different to stop you doing just that? |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: Gervase Date: 17 Jan 01 - 06:01 PM I stand corrected, thanks. And Keith, a nice session (though, despite my commendable sticking to a pint of bitter for the whole sesh, the gargle of the night before managed to work its way through my system to the extent that I arrived home and was promptly sick as several dogs while the family was watching It's a Wonderful Life. Trouble is, Jane thought it was a comment on the film!) |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Jan 01 - 05:55 PM When I was a Wolf Cub in the 50's I was taught that a Union Jack flying upside down was a distress signal. I was afraid that no one would even notice today, but now I know that there are some Mudcatters who would instantly recognise the alarm. Thanks for all your wisdom "concerning the bonnie bunch of roses oh" Best wishes to all, Keith. Gervaise, good to see you at New Year. |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: Steve Parkes Date: 17 Jan 01 - 12:26 PM Or Alf the Sacred Ramsay, if you're a footie fan ... Quite right Les, that's what I meant. Good job somebody's paying attention! |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: Les from Hull Date: 17 Jan 01 - 12:23 PM Steve - in heraldry you can't put a colour on a colour or a metal on a metal, which is what you meant to say I'm sure. This thread is turning into a pedant's pleasuredome. I love it. I'm just off now to take a dip in Alph the sacred river. Les |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: Micca Date: 17 Jan 01 - 12:14 PM Les,The way you tell if it is right way up is that the top corner of the flag nearest the flagpole (the Hoist)has the wider white strip above the red diagonal at the top,if its upside down that is Narrow, Micca (ex bunting tosser) |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Jan 01 - 10:40 AM I've seen a picture of a Scottish version where the St Andrew's Cross (as a white saltire with a blue saltire on it) is in front, so that the St George's Cross is broken up. I don't know if they still use that.
I can see the fun they'd have tryingbto incorprate the Weslsh and Cornish crosses into it - it'd certainly be a pretty colourful flag, if complicated.
At one time there was a cod-version in Green white and Orange going round too.
I think one reason why St George's is coming back into fashion - you never used to see it excepty on CofE churches - is that the English footie fans who used to wave the Union Jack around found it was too bloody complicated to paint on their faces the way the Scots were doing with their simpler St Andrews Cross.
And that is how history hinges on the daftest things, because I'm certain that the waving of the English flag at sporting events is having effects on the way that many English people tend to identify what country it is they belong to. |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: Steve Parkes Date: 17 Jan 01 - 10:25 AM Ah, but that's only true of other countries' flags, Gervase: the UJ is enshrined in Acts of Parliament as the Union Jack. (It would have to be on the jack-staff, too; on the ensign staff it would be an ensign, so pedantry is preserved and honour satisfied!) |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: Gervase Date: 17 Jan 01 - 09:33 AM ...but it ain't a jack unless it's on a boat. Otherwise it's just a flag. (Curmudgeonly pedant ducks and runs for cover..!) |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: Steve Parkes Date: 17 Jan 01 - 09:16 AM Strictly speaking, it's a wyvern, Jon! To end any confusion about the Union Jack(or cause more), it comprised originally St George's cross (red) on top of St Andrew's saltire (white on blue). The white border to the red cross is there because of a peculiarty of heraldry: white and yellow represent siver and gold respectively, and you mustn't put a "metal" next to a colour, or a colour next to a "metal". In this case, the red is separated from the blue ("infimbriated") by a thin white (silver) line. It's OK to have this touching the white saltire, as they're the same colour. When Ireland was added to the Union, the saltire of St Patrick (red on white[?]) was added to the flag, another bit of heraldry came into play: the two were "counterchanged", which means the diagonals were split cornerwise and north-south, east-west. Each bit was coloured red or white, alternately. But now you'd have had red against blue - not allowed - so the red was imfimbriated with white. To balance the appearance, the other white bit was made wider. And that's how we have the Union Jack we know and love (or otherwise) today. BTW, the study of flags is vexillology, not heraldry, but blame James I/VI, not me! Steve |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: Snuffy Date: 17 Jan 01 - 09:06 AM And what about the white cross on black of Cornwall? |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: Jon Freeman Date: 17 Jan 01 - 08:29 AM Who wants a cross when you can have a dragon anyway? Jon |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: Michael in Swansea Date: 17 Jan 01 - 08:25 AM Like St George's. Mike |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Jan 01 - 08:07 AM St David's Cross? That's a new one on me. Is it a saltire like St Andrews and St Patrick's, or is it like St George's? Gold on Black. Sounds pretty. It'd be the end "There ain't no black in the Union Jack" anyway, if they incorporated it. |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: Steve Parkes Date: 17 Jan 01 - 08:02 AM The full name used to be "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland"; now it's ".. Northern Ireland". It msut be awfully confusing for foreigners (who are ipso facto stupid anyway, as any Briton knows) to try and distinguish between Great Britain (it's OK for us to drop the "Great", but don't let us catch you doing it!), The British Isles, The UK, England (=England), England (=England + Wales), and so forth. And it's not that long since the monarch was the King of GB &(N)I and Emperor of India; the rest of the Empire, curiously, only qualified for "King". Daphne Du Maurier ("Rebecca", "Jamaica Inn", the original story of "The Birds", etc.) wrote a novel in the seventies called "Rule Britannia", in which we (the UK) had gone bankrupt and been incorporated with (do you say "united into"?) the US. We were thenceforward to be known as "US-UK". I think this was intended as a sly joke on Ms DU M's part ("you suck"), but it was never explicitly referred to. I won't let on how it ended, but I dare say the Americans wouldn't be surprised and the British would be reasonably pleased. Steve |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: Les from Hull Date: 17 Jan 01 - 07:57 AM You're right Mike. Another raw deal for Wales. At least you've got the FA Cup Final for a couple o' years! I notice that no-one has mentioned the counterchange of saltires. That's how you can tell if the flag is the right way up. Except that nobody can. Les |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Jan 01 - 07:49 AM "It's only one Kingdom cos there's only one King"- so Australia, Canada and New Zealand are all part of the United Kingdom?
And when James became King of England it was United Kingdoms that was the term. So when did they drop the S? (As I said, I suspect it was after the political unuion with Scotland, when they started going on about North Britain and so forth, but that never really caught on. But the dropped S did.) |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: Michael in Swansea Date: 17 Jan 01 - 07:49 AM The Union Flag does not represent Wales. Now, if St. David's Cross, (gold on black), was to be incorporated into it? Mike |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: Grab Date: 17 Jan 01 - 07:39 AM Geordie, I'm another GB (of the Graham Bartlett variety). McGrath, it's only one Kingdom cos there's only one King. England and Wales were one entity much earlier (although the Welsh might dispute this :-), and when James the First (aka James the Third of Scotland, since Scotland had already had 2 Jameses) then one king ruled the whole of mainland Britain. Grab.
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Jan 01 - 02:31 PM I was down at a cinema today,and they've got a new annual season-ticket they're selling - and the poster says that it is useable at all their cinemas "anywhere in the UK, in Ireland and in Scotland".
Signs of the times.
I believe that originally it wasn't the United Kingdom, it was the United Kingdoms. I don't know when the Kingdom form came into use - maybe after the Scottish Parliment was bribed to vote itself out of existence. I think the could do well to revive it now. It sounds better. But what'll they'll call the place if there's ever a republic here? (I've suggested they could keep the UK initials, and call it the United Kindred, and sound like something out of the Lord of the Rings.) There was of course a Union Flag before 1801, it just didn't have the red diagonal which is supposed to represent Ireland. Now, if the Scots pulled out of the Union, they'd have to remove the blue-and-white saltire. And if the North-East of Ulster stayed in, wouldn't that be a funny-looking Union Flag! |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: Troll Date: 16 Jan 01 - 02:19 PM Happy Birthday Oh, happy Birthday Gloom and misery, Pain and woe. People crying everywhere you go. Happy Birthday, Oh, Happy Birthday. troll |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: John Routledge Date: 16 Jan 01 - 02:10 PM I will celebrate being British by not celebrating that I an British. GB(Not Great British.) |
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Subject: RE: UK Bicentenary From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Jan 01 - 01:57 PM Go down you Blood Red Roses, Go Down...
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Subject: UK Bicentenary From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Jan 01 - 01:46 PM The UK and the Union Jack are 200 years old this month. For reasons of history there will be no celebrations, but I thought I would mark the event by singing The Bonnie Bunch Of Roses. Any other suggestions? |
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