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Lyr Req: While the Gamekeepers Lie Sleeping DigiTrad: WHILE GAMEKEEPERS LIE SLEEPING Related threads: Lyr Req: Long Tom the Old Yorkshire Gamekeeper (12) Lyr Add: Whilst the Gamekeepers lie Sleeping (7) Lyr Req: gamekeepers, bonny may -june tabor? (8) |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: While the Gamekeepers Lie Sleeping From: GUEST,Mark Bluemel Date: 22 Aug 17 - 09:49 AM "Macrame has come to typify..." - according to whom? Where? I can only find the term used in two thread on Mudcat, and my google-fu is usually pretty good. So far the term just seems to be one or two people's coinage for something they don't like. |
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: While the Gamekeepers Lie Sleeping From: FreddyHeadey Date: 21 Aug 17 - 05:50 PM MB On th thread "Do purists really exist?" ... From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray - PM Date: 17 Jul 11 - 06:49 AM macrame is making things out of string. "For sure, on one level, it is making things out of string, or rather (and more properly) jute. On another, however, Macrame has come to typify a certain 70's Folksy-Crafty Zeitgeist not altogether unassociated with the rhythmic contrivances of Steeleye Span and June Tabor (et al). I hardly think it's in any way disrectful or unreasonable to call this Macrame Beat. Tabor's While Gamekeepers Lie Sleeping is a Macrame Beat classic, as is Steeleye Span's All Around My Hat, both of which force hitherto natural Traditional Songs into all sorts of unnatural contortions in a way that only becomes evident on seeking The Source of such material to see the extent of such perversions. Another example is Carthy's Rufford Park, the Macrame Beat of which is so insistent I had to stop singing it because every time I did it came out all jerky." thread.cfm?threadid=138735&messages=527&page=11#3189330 |
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: While the Gamekeepers Lie Sleeping From: GUEST,Mark Bluemel Date: 21 Aug 17 - 08:51 AM In Jack Blandiver's contibution (19 Aug 2016) he refers to June Tabor adding the "Macrame Beat" - not a term that I'm familiar with. Can anyone explain it or provide a good reference? |
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: While the Gamekeepers Lie Sleeping From: GUEST,Ned of the hill Date: 21 Aug 17 - 07:14 AM it sounds like the version which was sung by Bob Roberts |
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: While the Gamekeepers Lie Sleeping From: JHW Date: 20 Aug 17 - 04:42 PM I'm sure Jim Eldon does a version of this 'he didn't know I'd brindled she - while gamekeepers...' but I can't find it on line. |
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: While the Gamekeepers Lie Sleeping From: GUEST,GUEST Date: 18 Aug 17 - 10:05 PM I suspect the subject of the "Oh Aunt" lyrics have cropped up somewhere in these threads. Though an interesting idea about hare-hunting being a folk-metaphor for sex has been offered on another thread, it didn't explain how that linked to the characters in these various versions. I think that "Uncle" is the undecipherable mishearing. I'm sure it was Emily Slade [as was then]/Jones who said that the (or a) source (for her version) was recorded in Cobham, or Chobham (both close together, in Surrey). He was a strawberry picker. No idea of her source for this info. But… that area is near enough, back then, for an East Londoner to have reached it for casual employment in fruit-picking, so I'm guessing the singer was a Cockney(-ish). Charles Dickens indicates the Cockney origins of more than one character (Magwitch, in "Great Expectations", and Sam Weller) by giving them the speech-quirk of substituting a 'v' with a 'w'. To such a speaker, "Oh Aunt" is a rendering of "Ovaunt". Was it Gardiner's (and mates') transliteration of a word they couldn't decipher and the (posited illiterate) singer couldn't explain, into a phrase that at least exists in English, even if it made no sense? "Ovaunt", though, isn't a million miles from "Avant", a French word easily given a new-ish life when pronounced in English; the more so when given a French pronunciation (a-VORN). And why would an illiterate Cockney be spouting French? Well he mightn't have known it was French: back in the day, spoken English, even in cities, would have contained all sorts of what would now be called 'dialect' terms. We get huge numbers of hunting terms from the Normans: hence some of us eat "beef" not "cow", "venison" not "deer", "pork" not "boar", "pheasant" (= French "faisan"); and the fox is known poetically as "Reynard" (the Anglo-Norman huntsman's term for the animal as quarry); why wooded areas set aside for hunting were/still are called Chases (e.g. Cranbourne, Dorset), from "la chasse" (= the hunt). Even that archetypally British toff term "Tally-ho!" can't escape its French origins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally-ho#Etymology). Thus "Avant", either in the sense of a 'battle-cry' exhortation "Forward!", or as a description "up ahead", is a perfectly feasible option, and likely to still have been in use in some (small-C) conservative fields of activity. Among the common folk, whose communities were probably less influenced by change than more progressive, early-adopter strata of society, it's likely that Norman terms were still widely heard in some contexts. One thinks of the truism that the country is slower to change than the city; huntng is primarly a rural pursuit, and is proud of its tradition (whatever many on these pages may think of it), so I suspect that "Avant" is an ancient throwback that both singer and collector were unaware of. In that light, I'm sure the "uncle" has been 'parachuted' in, to make sense of the "aunt" reference: I reckon IT is the spurious one (though I can't make any sense of it). Tradsinger's gypsy version contains the word (mondegrine IMHO) "airgun" (lyrics are posted on another "Gamekeeper" thread). I'd be equally suspicious of that anachronism, too. A quick skim-read does not suggest the hunter has a gun: isn't that the point of having the dog? |
Subject: Lyr Add: HARES IN THE OLD PLANTATION From: RTim Date: 19 Aug 16 - 12:07 PM The version, tune and words, generally sung was published by Frank Purslow in his book - Marrowbones - Collected originally by Dr. George Gardiner. Purslow used Gypsy James Ray's (of Petersfield) words and the tune collected from Charles Bull of Marchwood (actually - Longdown). Bull called his version - Hare's in the Old Plantation. His actual words are listed below: HARES IN THE OLD PLANTATION. - Chas. Bull, Marchwood June 1907 These are the actual Bull words, not the Purslow amended version using Ray's words, etc., with Bull's tune. I had a dog in my father's care, Twas in his care and keeping, To catch some game was my intent, While keepers they lie sleeping. My dog and I now scent could tell, All around their habitation, So up jumps one and away she runs, Right into the plantation. "Tan, tan" she holloed, "tan, tan" she cried, "There's something stops me running," I says "be still you silly thing, For your Uncle's just a-coming." My dog and I now scent could tell, Twas in a field on further, Up jumps one and away she run, My dog and she struck murder. I picked her up and I cracked her crown, And in my pocket I put her, Thinks I to myself "I better be off, Before the keeper's coming." I went into a neighbour's house, And asked what they would give me, They said they'd give me a crown a brace, If I could bring them fifty. I went into a public house, There I sat and got mellow, I spent that crown and another one too, Wasn't I a jolly fellow? |
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: While the Gamekeepers Lie Sleeping From: Tradsinger Date: 19 Aug 16 - 08:03 AM Gloucestershire gypsy version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zrql4SFkd6I Tradsinger |
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: While the Gamekeepers Lie Sleeping From: Dave Hanson Date: 19 Aug 16 - 07:04 AM This is the same version that Mike Waterson sings on the album ' Green Fields ' Excellent rendition Jack. Dave H |
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: While the Gamekeepers Lie Sleeping From: Jack Blandiver Date: 19 Aug 16 - 04:42 AM I now see this thread is there best part of two decades old itself. I hope Sylvie's singing it... |
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: While the Gamekeepers Lie Sleeping From: Jack Blandiver Date: 19 Aug 16 - 04:40 AM I'm gone to June Tabor now to learn this song JT got hers from the great Bob Roberts - to which she added the Macrame Beat which has been the curse of many the unacommpanied floor singer for decades. It's worth looking the original recording up - not on YouTube, but here's our very own Dick Miles (AKA GSS / Good Soldier Schweik) giving all due respect to the fons et origo of the thing: While Gamekeepers Lie Sleeping |
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: While the Gamekeepers Lie Sleeping From: GUEST,Alan W - Guest Date: 18 Aug 16 - 10:07 AM I am trying to figure out the notes to the Steeleye Span version of the similar song Dogs and Ferrets. Such a song is listed under Roud 363, but all the melodies I have seen (Gamekeepers lie Sleeping, Hares in the Plantation are different. I have worked out the notes for the chorus - which they sing in unison, but the verses have harmonies that are tricky to hear and get the pitch. Can anyone help ? Here is a link to what I have so far, but I know the verse is wrong...... https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/86691880/Dogs%20and%20Ferrets%20ASW.pdf Again, any help would be appreciated. |
Subject: RE: Lyr? While the Gamekeepers Lie Sleeping From: GUEST,Sylvie Date: 20 Jun 01 - 07:45 PM ah, Sorcha, eternally grateful am I to you...I'm gone to June Tabor now to learn this song. Thanks ever so much! (it rarely takes more than lyrics to please me ;) |
Subject: RE: Lyr? While the Gamekeepers Lie Sleeping From: Sorcha Date: 20 Jun 01 - 01:26 PM Sorry Garry, I copied and pasted all but the credits.....I guess I either can't read or can't remember! Mea Culpa. Wonder where Sylvie went......? |
Subject: RE: Lyr? While the Gamekeepers Lie Sleeping From: GUEST Date: 20 Jun 01 - 10:48 AM Thanks Sorcha. I'm mystified as to how you could have managed to spell my name wrong, since everything else was correctly transferred from my website. Garry |
Subject: Lyr Add: HARES IN THE OLD PLANTATION (Carthy) From: Sorcha Date: 19 Jun 01 - 11:52 AM Since I don't have anything else to do I'll post the words to Martin Carthy's version this morning: HARES IN THE OLD PLANTATION As sung by Martin Carthy on Waterson:Carthy's “Common Tongue.”
Oh I've got a dog got a good dog too
Oh me and my dogs we went out one night
She kicked she squalled she hollered out
I picked her up and I cracked her neck
And as I was a-going over Hartford field
I picked her up I smoothed her out
So I went down to my neighbour's house
So I went down to the public house
Oh I've got a dog got a good dog too
Transcription by Gary Gillard with assistance from Wolfgang Hell. |
Subject: RE: Lyr? While the Gamekeepers Lie Sleeping From: Sorcha Date: 19 Jun 01 - 12:10 AM And Martin Carthy's version is here. It's different from the one in the DT also. |
Subject: Lyr Add: DOGS AND FERRETS (Bob Copper) From: Sorcha Date: 19 Jun 01 - 12:06 AM DOGS AND FERRETS As sung by Bob Copper on “Sweet Rose in June” (1977)
I keep my dogs and my ferrets too,
My dogs and I went out one night
She had not gone so very far in
I then drew out my little pen-knife
Now I'll go down to some ale-house by This song is from the Coppersongs2 CD and also from The Copper Family Song Book—A Living Tradition. Under the title "Hares in the Old Plantation" a song with similar words but a different tune is sung by The Watersons on Green Fields. Those words were collected by Ralph Vaughan Williams from Noah Fisher, according to A. L. Lloyd's notes from the sleeve and insert. Another, different song by that name is sung by Martin Carthy on Common Tongue. The words on the latter, collected from Shadrach Haden, are similar to those above. from: http://wwwmcc.murdoch.edu.au/~gillard/copper/dogs.html |
Subject: Lyr? While the Gamekeepers Lie Sleeping From: GUEST,Sylvie Date: 18 Jun 01 - 11:42 PM Hi. Does anyone know the lyrics to June Tabor's "While the Gamekeepers Lie Sleeping" (from the Airs and Graces album)? I've found one version through DT, but it doesn't seem to be the same one. I searched through threads and someone said it was in their "Copper Family" Songbook, but didn't post the lyrics. I don't know if it's "The Copper Family" songbook, or "The Copper Family Songbook". I'd be most grateful to anyone who can help; this is a great song. Search for "Gamekeeper" threadsWhile Gamekeepers Lie Sleeping in the Digital Tradition |
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