Another Sectarian Killing (2)

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 10:15 PM

Ok everybody, lets calm down.

Lets all gather and sing "There Were Roses" and lets keep on singing it until we drown the meanness.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: ard mhacha
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 05:32 AM

And as another North man, may I say, lights out, good night, to this thread. Slan Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: Brendy
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 04:52 AM

"Therefore I feel qualified to comment as I'm about to"

With a name like Derrymacash, you're one of the few who are entitled to comment.

Oh, many's the note in The Corner House.....

B.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: Aidan Crossey
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 04:06 AM

Brendy ...

Sorry you got goaded into responding. I've been out of action on these threads for a while but was going to post a response in support of the GUEST whose desire for anonymity I completely understand and sympathise with and whose comments were, I feel, in order given the provocation.

Though I don't live in Northern Ireland now, I did live there till I was 21. I still consider it my home. Most of my best friends here in London are from Northern Ireland originally - from both political persuasions. Therefore I feel qualified to comment as I'm about to.

It turns my guts to see people from outside Northern Ireland seize on opportunities such as this to start to pontificate. I too have read the previous thread and the combination of arrogance and naivete was frightening.

If people really wish to express their sadness at the taking of a young life in circumstances which advance no cause, they could start a simple thread to serve as a "book of condolences".

Otherwise like GUEST I fear that this will just be used as a soapbox for people living outside Northern Ireland to preach at those who have to spend our lives dealing with the situation we find ourselves in.

This is one of those occasions where I wish there was scope for deleting a thread!

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: Brendy
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 03:42 AM

Unfair, Fionn.

What's the craic youse boys talk about....protecting your sources, or something.

I'm a County Armagher myself, remember, and I understand where he/she, or anyone else that writes from such concerns, comes from.

I was talking earlier about being jeered and goaded into our peace.

Why can't people leave well enough alone.

There will be nothing more enlightening written in this thread, that hasn't been re-hashed somewhere else before.

There is NEVER anything new in threads like this. And it annoys me that the north of Ireland is discussed to the degree that it is.

You people living in England have enough on your plate, and enough skeletons in your cupboards.

Or should we have a thread everytime someone gets run over by a car in Vladivostock, or everytime someone get's knifed in Chicago?

B.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 09:29 PM

Guest, or guests, I haven't the faintest idea where you're writing from. Just put an X if you haven't the guts to sign your name. Or X and Y respectively if you're separate people.

Peter Kirker (AKA Fionn)

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 09:25 PM

Shouldn't surprise anyone. There have been more killings in this old world in the name of religion than by all other reasons combined. Get rid of religion, you get rid of most of the killings.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 02:51 PM

Anonymity is something that is often very necessary. But a temporary-for-the-duration-of-the-thread name after the GUEST doesn't affect anonymity, and helps sort one GUEST from another GUEST.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: Brendy
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 02:47 PM

Can somebody turn the spotlight off, now, please?

B.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 02:45 PM

Fionn ...

The anonymity thing I agree with ... but you will appreciate that writing from where I am writing, with matters poised the way they are poised, I don't feel very disposed to giving away any more info about my identity than I already have.

You may think I'm paranoid. However I once wrote a letter to a local paper commenting on a particular matter (in language which was quite moderate and expressing a view which had a lot of tacit popular support). I was "paid a visit" a short while after by a few lads who took exception to my views and wished to "engage in debate" with me about them. Which "debate" left me fairly shaken and put an end to any pretensions I may have had about being an outspoken scourge of injustice!

Sorry!

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 02:31 PM

Guest your comments are commendable but I despise your anonymity. At least put in a psuedonym so you can be distinguished from any other unidentified guest.

Yes, I would agree that Fiolar's first post may have seemed deplorable to anyone seriously trying to find solutions. But from other threads I have noticed that he is not a fool - so maybe he has tended to hear one point of view rather than others.

There is no excuse for the history of British excesses in Ireland or the protestant parliament that governed Northern Ireland 1921-72. But many PIRA hostilities were aimed at innocent civilian targets (in which, incidentally, many Catholics died as well as protestants), and long after most human-rights demands had been conceded. In 1972 alone, more than 1,000 bombs went off in Belfast - about three a day. I was there, and it takes some forgetting.

Fiolar says decommissioning is a red herring, and so it may be in many estimations. But is it unreasonable to see another point of view? Why does PIRA still need Semtex? This is a fair question, especially when it is remembered that PIRA broke its last ceasefire with a short warning that (while security had been relaxed)it had planted a bomb in London's docks area - a massive lorry bomb, in the event, which killed two innocent people and injured another 100. OK the bombing was needed, in IRA terms, to head off another split in its ranks. But who'se to say that this can't happen again, while all the materials are still available?

In any case, decommissioning would only be a gesture - no-one seriously believes any side would hand in everything, or that the IRA would thereafter be rendered helpless. (The only precedent I can think of for decommissioning was after the Rhodesian civil war, when Zanu PF and Zapu PF handed in a huge proportion of their total weaponry.) I know many who voted Sinn Fein last time round who think it is time the IRA handed in their explosives, and at least some of their guns.

On the other hand, as Fiolar would be quick to say, policing is still far short of the reforms necessary to win confidence in both communities. But I believe this will come. Bit by bit, in recent years, there has been progress that many of us would not have hoped for in lifetime.

One of the real practical difficulties is that many in the loyalist community were born into their unfair advantages (some petty, some significant) and find them hard to give up - a bit like asking wealthy Americans to sacrifice a little of their lifestyles to slow the global-warming trend. Nobody likes giving up what they've got, and sometimes force is not the best way to persuade them. Whether Northern Ireland is run from Dublin or Westminster, 900,000 belligerent prods could cause phenomenal hassle in a country of about 1.7 million. But inch by inch their position is being eroded, and that is significant for a community whose slogan is "not an inch."

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: Brendy
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 02:29 PM

kat, you ask: "What can we do to help the majority of people in Northern Ireland, who do want peace and who try their damnedest to lead reasonably straightforward lives in circumstances which you would find completely unacceptable?"

The answer is to let us do it out of the spotlight.
To not try and find fault at every twist in the story.

To afford us the dignity, and the realisation that goes with it, that we are not objects to be commented upon, or 'pitied', by people who have an over-inflated idea of their own importance, bolstered by a certain superiority complex some of them have, about their own situation in life.

We do not want to be part of the soap opera where the audience tsk tsks, and settles back on the sofa, where it won't intrude any more that they let it.

Because, kat, what they are watching from the comfort of their armchairs are REAL people, trying to get on with life (like everyone in this World does), putting up with a lot of flak from all sorts of different sides, while the rest of the spectators sit, arm stretched, with their thumbs poised to deliver their judgements with.

We don't need that from outsiders.

B.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 02:26 PM

Ard mhacha ...

Sorry, a chairde.

I hoped that my own feelings about the young lad's death were subsumed in the statement "I don't think you should use the tragic death of a wee young lad to start spouting."

Of course I'm apalled that some psychoes have snuffed out a young life just to destabilise further the current precarious political situation.

However you and I know that people from our neck of the woods would think twice about starting a thread of this nature. We have to live IN and WITH this sort of mess every day of our lives. We don't have the option of sitting in a safe haven doling out advice in a hectoring manner. Or trolling so that we can then turn the discussion around to make political points. In my view Fiolar can make all the political points he wishes, but I'd prefer that they didn't arise in such a cynical way out of the tragic loss of a young life. At the end of the day the mudcat forums are a way for a lot of bored people at work to wile away a few minutes while their bosses' backs are turned. I don't think we ought to cheapen the loss of a life in such horrific circumstances by using it as an excuse for a bit of amateur sophistry.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 02:23 PM

Correction: Of course, maybe you were talking about Great Britain - even so it was bloody silly and unhelpful.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 02:21 PM

Bile's no use, whoever it's directed against. Never changed anybody's mind, and never stopped a sectarian murder. What people in Northern Ireland who want peace can do, and will do, is refuse to be provoked into reprisals, whatever efforts are made to provoke them. Mourn for the dead, but refuse to help the killers by responding in kind.

And hope that this kind of tragedy will maybe bring it home to a few more people there is never going to be "decommissioning", except maybe on a token basis, until peace is finally established. And anyone who insists that it's a precondition is just playing dangerous games.

But that was a bloody silly and unhelpful thing to say in that opening post Fiolar - "Shame that someone with a large scissors couldn't cut that excuse for a state free and let it float away into the Atlantic." Of course, maybe you were talking about Great Britain - even so it was bloody silly and helpful.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: Big Tim
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 02:06 PM

After Omagh and Ballymoney I thought we had reached the bottom and would start to rise again. Obviously not, and obviously the murderers don't read Mudcat so I wonder what's the point of a thread like this.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: ard mhacha
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 01:50 PM

Guest, Strange in all your blasting at Fiolar I did not notice a word of sympathy for the murdered youth. Your bile would be better saved for the sectarian thugs who have continued to kill and burn people out from the "end" of the so called ceasefire. I also am a native of the Orchard County. Slan Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 01:44 PM

This is a sincere question; some of my ancestors came from NI. What can we do to help the majority of people in Northern Ireland, who do want peace and who try their damnedest to lead reasonably straightforward lives in circumstances which you would find completely unacceptable?

Is there anyway that we can help? It is painful to read about, but I do think reasonable discussions are good, as they can educate those of us who do not live there and also give you who do a hopefully safe place to speak of what it is like, etc.

Thank you,

kat

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: Brendy
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 01:00 PM

Excellent suggestion, AGFNI

B.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: GUEST,Another Guest From NI
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 11:57 AM

"The point I was making or trying to make is for God's sake when will the killing stop so that all people of no matter what denomination can feel safe."

So Fiolar says ... but read what he says in the other thread about sectarian killing which he also started. It's pretty obvious that Fiolar's got some deeply-held nationalist convictions.

Not that he should be disallowed from having political beliefs. But he shouldn't be disingenuous. I agree with GUEST above. Let's not get drawn into yet another big sterile political hoo-haw with people living outside NI who can say what they like with impunity.

A young lad's dead. Let's try not to behave like trolls out of respect for him.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 11:49 AM

Would you lecture an innuit on how to live in it?

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: Fiolar
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 11:36 AM

Yeah. One doesn't have to live in the Antarctic to know about snow.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 10:42 AM

Fiolar ...

I didn't accuse you of having no sympathy with the murdered youth. I DID accuse you of not having "the faintest shred of sympathy with the vast majority of people who try their damnedest to lead reasonably straightforward lives in circumstances which you would find completely unacceptable." And the reason I said that was your comment "Shame that someone with a large scissors couldn't cut that excuse for a state free and let it float away into the Atlantic."

Anyway ... I'm not sure that your comments, however well-intentioned, are at all helpful. As I said above you DON'T KNOW what it's like to live in Glengormley or the Short Strand, or the Garvaghey Road, or Kilwilkie or any place in this small island where the white noise of street politics hisses day in-day out in our ears. DON'T presume to lecture us from your safe vantage point with the sort of well-meaning, wooly liberal stuff that wouldn't get you very far in any bar either on the Sandy Row or the Falls Road. I'll leave you alone now to make whatever posts you see fit.

Slán.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: Fiolar
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 10:04 AM

Yes I agree that I would find it totally unacceptable. But sadly the truth is (and like it or not) much of the trouble has been caused by the ordinary man in the street being prepared to put up with the killers on both sides of the divide. Also the fact that for many many years, Northern Ireland was never discussed openly by the British Parliament. Many newspapers only carried one side of the story and still in fact do. By the way to accuse me of having no sympathy for the murdered youth is insulting to me. I have every sympathy for the hundreds and indeed thousands who have been killed by one side or the other. The point I was making or trying to make is for God's sake when will the killing stop so that all people of no matter what denomination can feel safe. The latest news on TV give no reason for optimism. Using the forum for discussion helps by the way as there are very few such in which frank and open discussions can take place. Getting personal is no help. I have posted a fair amount of verse and songs btw.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 09:49 AM

Fiolar ...

Unless you live here or have lived here, you DON'T KNOW. You made a silly statement in your first post that proves you haven't got the faintest shred of sympathy with the vast majority of people who try their damnedest to lead reasonably straightforward lives in circumstances which you would find completely unacceptable.

And yet again you make sweeping generalisations which cast aspersions on all of the people of Northern Ireland when only an immeasurably small proportion of head-the-balls are sufficiently psychotic to carry out a sectarian assassination.

I don't think your lecturing tone will go down too well with any of my compatriots who are very well informed about what they do when they come to cast their votes and whose choices may be as simplistic as you make out, but may on the other hand reflect the realpolitik of a deeply divided political landscape. (Yet another thing which pisses people in my neck of the woods off is the condescending attitude of outsiders who think that they are more, or better, politicised than we are.)

Your posts aren't helpful, Fiolar. I don't think you should use the tragic death of a wee young lad to start spouting. If you know anything about music, the primary purpose I thought of this board, could you please start some posts about that?

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: Fiolar
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 09:14 AM

If people in Northern Ireland want to get on in peace then they are certainly going the wrong way about it. Why for example vote for politicians who have have intention or indeed never had any intention of living side by side with their Catholic neighbours in peace and do all that they can to stir up sectarian hatred. Why for example was power-sharing such a problem. Using the excuse that the IRA isn't getting rid of weapons is just another red herring and God knows there has been a fair number of them over the years. I have worked with many people from Northern Ireland over the years and never had any difficulty. However I can recall a friend of mine who married a girl from Northern Ireland. He was a Catholic and she was a Protestant. The couple went to her home town to get work and before long had to return to England as they were victimised at every turn. As for living in Northern Ireland, the picture that a lot of people have, me included is the photo of a toddler in his pushchair with the slogan "No Surrender" emblazoned on his t-shirt.The killers of the latest victim will have gone back to their enclave feeling that once more they have done a great deed. What are their feelings now I wonder and don't tell me that people don't know who they are. I think that to say that people don't know is wrong. Many more people than you think do know.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 08:37 AM

Fiolar

Let me state from the beginning that I am from Northern Ireland - born and raised in County Armagh.

I'd like to challlenge you on your final comment.

Northern Ireland is not an "excuse for a state" - though it is in a bit of a sad state.

What people forget when they make comments such as you've just made is that around a million people live in Northern Ireland and the vast majority of these people, despite possibly having deeply-held political beliefs, just want to get on with their lives in the same sort of relative peace enjoyed by our neighbours in, let's say, Scotland or England.

To suggest that Northern Ireland deserves to be abandoned or banished as a result of the actions of a very small minority of psychopathic hoods is simplistic in the extreme.

As, no doubt, will be a large number of the posts in this thread. It pisses me off when people from outside Northern Ireland start to discuss matters such as this, with no real knowledge of what it feels like to live in Northern Ireland. Can I suggest that if you wish to post to this thread consider the feelings of those people who live within Northern Ireland and who might read your post. We don't need to be patronised again and again by people who just DON'T KNOW!! (A few people who posted to the last such thread talked the biggest load of shite I have ever read!)

Remember, this is a music forum. Lots of people who contribute to the threads know a lot about music. It doesn't follow that they know anything about complex political problems and how to go about resolving them. So if you feel you have something useful or positive to say then obviously you should contribute. But if you merely wish to rub the noses of myself and fellow Northern Ireland 'catters in it, then give it a rest. Things are fucking bad here at the minute and it's hard enough without bucketmouths stirring things up even further.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: English Jon
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 07:43 AM

Well, it's like the riots in Bradford isn't it? Group A hates Group B so they go and start a fight. Lots of people end up hurt, and the situation perpetuates itself and nothing is gained. - Here we go again.

It seems very strange that while most people want peace, a slack handful of self styled "nationalists" from whatever side of the political fence are allowed to go round making everyone's lives significantly worse.

And why shoot a couple of random teenagers? God it makes me sick.

EJ

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 07:07 AM

I have just heard about this on the radio, it is very sad, I think it is really sad that people can shoot someone just because they are different religions. I was in Northern Ireland a few years ago, and 99 percent of the people there were really nice and friendly, I think it is sshame when just a small minority spoil things for everybody.

Subject: Another Sectarian Killing (2)
From: Fiolar
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 06:54 AM

So the killing continues. Last night in Glengormley, County Antrim a group of friends were standing outside St Endas GAA club having celebrated a birthday when a car drove up and the occupants fired on the group, killing a young Protestant aged 18 and wounding his friend who was a Catholic. The father of the dead man was one of the first on the scene and tried in vain to resusitate him. It is believed that the UDA were responsible for the murder and that they may have believed that there were all Catholics there. While Trimble and Donaldson and others of a similar ilk talk bullshit about decommissioning by the IRA, "loyalist" scum are free to terroise and murder. There has been quite a number of pipe bomb attacks over the last few weeks on Catholic homes and all the politicians can do is rabbit on TV about "no surrender." Shame that someone with a large scissors couldn't cut that excuse for a state free and let it float away into the Atlantic.