BS: Hanoi Jane; A top 100 woman?

Subject: RE: BS: Hanoi Jane; A top 100 woman?
From: toadfrog
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 11:35 PM

I think all you guys are feeding a TROLL. This guy wants our "feelings" about this e-mail? Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Hanoi Jane; A top 100 woman?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 11:33 PM

Come on folks, being stuck in time as you seem to be is no solution to the festering going on in your hearts and brains. It takes 2 sides to fight a war----and to argue about it ad infinitum. Put it to rest and get a good nights sleep tonight. When the horse race is over, everyone collects their bets or pays their debts --- and then they go home. Get yourselves unstuck in time. You'll feel much better for it.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Hanoi Jane; A top 100 woman?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 09:38 PM

Dear patriotic GUESTS -

Just because your government refers to someone as an "enemy", does that mean it's necessarily true?

If so, then all those loyal Germans who went out between 1939 and 1945 on the word of Hitler's propaganda machine must have been doing exactly the wise and proper thing when they believed that the Poles, Danes, Norwegians, Dutch, French, Belgians, Greeks, British, Russians, Americans, Yugoslavs, Greeks, etc...were their ENEMIES!!!

And if so, then any German who opposed the Nazis was a rotten traitor, who ought to be brought to trial...never mind the passing of all these years. One does not forgive traitors!

I am, you see, using your own logic.

You suckers just can't seem to get the fact that the real enemy was not in Vietnam at all. The real enemy was in your own government, the Pentagon, and the White House...

They lied to you. They used you as cannon fodder. They interfered in the self-determination of a small Asian country, which would never have been divided and would never have had a civil war in the first place if the USA had not been mucking around in there, both during and after the French occupation of Indochina.

Face it guys. You were fooled. You were sent off to fight a war which was completely unjustified, and virtually unwinnable. Many of you died there. Uselessly!

The protestors were just trying to bring you home. The antiwar movement was, in fact, the only real friend you had back in the States.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Hanoi Jane; A top 100 woman?
From: GUEST,Guestjack
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 07:45 PM

Guest,Calach,I think it would be next to impossible to not enter politics into this particular discusion and I am replying to Lee Shore and his reference to the "Taliban" wing of the republican party.When you and your bride make it to Kansas next year, and if you stay in the US,you will undoubtably be faced with several moral issues, most importantly the abortion issue.If you boil down all the differences between supporters of the two major political parties,I suspect the issue hottest issue between them,the last issue either side is willing to budge on, is the right to life/abortion issue. The "Taliban"comment makes me further supect Lee Shore is pro-abortion, and he knows that sometime in the next three years or so,third tri-mester abortions will be outlawed or greatly restricted by the current administration. He fears that legal abortion will be restricted ,and his fear results in his name calling.

Subject: RE: BS: Hanoi Jane; A top 100 woman?
From: Gareth
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 07:33 PM

I have every sympathy for the Vets who spent their year in Vietnam. I can empathise with thier distaste for Jane Fonda's actions.

I have no respect for those who used daddy's influence to avoid service up at the sharp end.

I have even less respect for those who were "economical with the truth" to manipulate public and political oppinion and authorisation into a conflict.

And Henry K got a peace prize ?

At least us Brit's had enough sense to realise which way the winds of change were blowing !

I suspect that one of the reasons that the British economy was so badley handeled in the 1950's and 60's was that the best and brightest were left, "Hanging on the Old Barbed Wire", and much of the best of the next generation of middle management died in Corvettes, MTB's (PT Boats) and Lancasters and Wellingtons.

But I suspect thats something for another thread.

Gareth.

Subject: RE: BS: Hanoi Jane; A top 100 woman?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 07:25 PM

If you go to the second link I posted, you will find that it says:

"This particular email includes three stories, two of which have been denied by the POWs who are named, and one of which has been confirmed as true by the source, although he was not named in the email."

Subject: RE: BS: Hanoi Jane; A top 100 woman?
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 07:00 PM

I have seen the slip of paper story before. It may not be true. However, she did visit and offer aid and comfort to an enemy of the United States. That is, under our constitution, the defination of treason. They electrocuted the Rosenbergs for less. She has apologized. Good for her. Most of my comrades who fought in Vietnam didn't agree with our government's policies. As a vet, however, I firmly believe that Ms. Fonda should have been brought to trial for her "mistakes". Her choice of how to express her opinion was criminal on it's face. Even though the war was not declared, she still gave aid and comfort to the enemy. They Jailed Iva Toguri for playing music under duress after the second world war. Ask Ms Toguri what she thinks is fair. Kindest reguards, Neil

Subject: RE: BS: Hanoi Jane; A top 100 woman?
From: mg
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 06:47 PM

Never off the hook with me either. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Hanoi Jane; A top 100 woman?
From: GUEST,guestjack
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 06:10 PM

Hi mr.mudjack--her apologies may get her off the hook with you,but not with most of vets I know---she may have expressed regret, but the harm she did, and the comfort she provided to an enemy of the US is un-forgivable. She should have answered in a court of law for what she did.

Subject: RE: BS: Hanoi Jane; A top 100 woman?
From: Lee Shore
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 05:38 PM

If I were a Scot, I would seriously consider having my bride join me in Scotland. The United States is currently having a love affair with the Taliban wing of the Republican party, and the grass roots have migrated to the far right. This could get scary before the country regains it equalibrium.

Subject: RE: BS: Hanoi Jane; A top 100 woman?
From: RWilhelm
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 05:27 PM

I don't think Joan Baez made it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hanoi Jane; A top 100 woman?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 05:23 PM

Who else was on the list?

Guess Aunt Molly Jackson, or Libba Cotten didn't make it.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Hanoi Jane; A top 100 woman?
From: Mudjack
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 05:17 PM

Jane Fonda has publicly appologised for any harm brought to the POWS and anyone else who may have suffered for her visit to North Vietnam.
President Johnson stood behind the Presidential Seal and purposely LIED to the American people about the Gulf of Tolkin battle and some one is still got the "Jane Fonda should be tried for treason" crap in their minds.
It seems when Hanoi Jane made her visit to North Vietnam, that was about the time American's began to open their eyes to our US policies and the war in Vietnam.
She gets my vote for bieng honored as the top 100 women in the US.
Mudjack

Subject: RE: BS: Hanoi Jane; A top 100 woman?
From: RWilhelm
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 04:49 PM

I don't know whether the story is true or not but I was surprised that the compiler of the list could not come up with 100 women more important than Jane Fonda. I could probably name 200 without even going to the books. They must have been trolling for controversy.

She always did have a Forest-Gumpish ability to appear at the peak of a trend, though. From 60's soft sex movies to social activism to 70's exercise videos to marrying into the wealth and power 80's Jane was always in the picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Hanoi Jane; A top 100 woman?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 10:55 AM

See Jane Fonda's exploits, please read from last Dec.

See also this article at the Truth or Fiction website.

Subject: RE: BS: Hanoi Jane; A top 100 woman?
From: Peg
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 10:37 AM

I don't have much to say about this rather boring indictment of Ms. Fonda, but for an excellent docuemntary film on Viet Nam you can't beat "Winter Soldier" which documents four days of testimony in a government-sponsored forum given by Vienam Veterans Against the War...

peg

Subject: RE: BS: Hanoi Jane; A top 100 woman?
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 10:17 AM

No comment on this story, but I did think it strange to see the once oh so correct Jane doing the tomahawk chop, with Ted Turner.

Subject: RE: BS: Hanoi Jane; A top 100 woman?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 09:57 AM

If the Germans had won WWII, I suspect Marlene Dietrich would have been in a whole lot of trouble...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Hanoi Jane; A top 100 woman?
From: Gareth
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 08:58 AM

Unlike the present President Jane went to Vietnam

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Hanoi Jane; A top 100 woman?
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 08:48 AM

Jesus, this canard again!The Thing that Would Not Die!!! BS indeed.

This is a hoax circulated for at least the last 10 years, probably longer and has been disproved several times on this forum, and several thousand times elsewhere. Enough, already!! If folks must believe this sort of thing, suggest Alien Abduction as a change of pace.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Hanoi Jane; A top 100 woman?
From: paddymac
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 08:23 AM

If there really was a god, i might have found this traitor in my headlights long ago. Another sad example of the selective use, or non-use in this case, of the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Hanoi Jane; A top 100 woman?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 08:10 AM

Check the old threads (sorry still can't do the blue clicky thing) their was a long one on this before, a bit of a battle if I remember. Barry

Subject: Hanoi Jane; A top 100 woman?
From: GUEST,calach
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 06:36 AM

I would say from the outset, that this is NOT a political thread, just an ignorant man trying to get to the facts.
I recieved this attachment to an email today, and wonder what Americans on the mudcat think of this.
I am a Scot, who is going to marry an American and move to Kansas next year, and would appreciate any feelings on the text below.

Subj: Fwd: KEEP THIS MOVING ACROSS AMERICA --
HONORING A TRAITOR

This is for all the kids born in the 70's that do not remember this, and didn't have to bear the burden, that our fathers, mothers, and older brothers and sisters had to bear.
Jane Fonda is being honored as one of the "100 Women of the Century."

Unfortunately, many have forgotten and still countless others have never known how Ms. Fonda betrayed not only the idea of our country but specific men who served and sacrificed during Vietnam.
The first part of this is from an F-4E pilot. The pilot's name is Jerry Driscoll, a River Rat. In 1978, the former Commandant of the USAF Survival School was a POW in Ho Lo Prison-the "Hanoi Hilton."
Dragged from a stinking cesspit of a cell, cleaned, fed, and dressed in clean PJs, he was ordered to describe for a visiting American "Peace Activist" the "lenient and humane treatment" he'd received. He spat at Ms. Fonda, was clubbed, and dragged away.
During the subsequent beating, he fell forward upon the camp Commandant's feet, which sent that officer berserk.
In '78, the AF Col. still suffered from double vision (which permanently ended his flying days) from the Vietnamese Col.'s frenzied application of a wooden baton.

From 1963-65, Col. Larry Carrigan was in the 47FW/DO (F-4Es). He spent 6 -years in the "Hilton"- the first three of which he was "missing in action". His wife lived on faith that he was still alive. His group, too, got the cleaned/fed/clothed routine in preparation for a "peace delegation" visit.
They, however, had time and devised a plan to get word to the world that they still survived. Each man secreted a tiny piece of paper, with his SSN on it, in the palm of his hand. When paraded before Ms. Fonda and a cameraman, she walked the line, shaking each man's hand and asking little encouraging snippets like: "Aren't you sorry you bombed babies?" and "Are you grateful for the humane treatment from your benevolent captors?" Believing this HAD to be an act, they each palmed her their sliver of paper.
She took them all without missing a beat. At the end of the line and once the camera stopped rolling, to the shocked disbelief of the POWs, she turned to the officer in charge and handed him the little pile of papers. Three men died from the subsequent beatings. Col. Carrigan was almost number four but he survived, which is the only reason we know about, her actions that day.
I was a civilian economic development advisor in Vietnam, and was captured by the North Vietnamese communists in South Vietnam in 1968, and held for over 5 years.
I spent 27 months in solitary confinement, one year in a cage in Cambodia, and one year in a "black box" in Hanoi. My North Vietnamese captors deliberately poisoned and murdered a female missionary, a nurse in a leprosarium in Ban me Thuot, South Vietnam, whom I buried in the jungle near the Cambodian border.
At one time, I was weighing approximately 90 lbs. (My normal weight is 170 lbs.) We were Jane Fonda's "war criminals."
When Jane Fonda was in Hanoi, I was asked by the camp communist political officer if I would be willing to meet with Jane Fonda. I said yes, for I would like to tell her about the real treatment we POWs received different from the treatment purported by the North Vietnamese, and parroted by Jane Fonda, as "humane and lenient." Because of this, I spent three days on a rocky floor on my knees with outstretched arms with a large amount of steel placed on my hands, and beaten with a bamboo cane till my arms dipped.
I had the opportunity to meet with Jane Fonda for a couple of hours after I was released. I asked her if she would be willing to debate me on TV. She did not answer me.
This does not exemplify someone who should be honored as part of "100 Years of Great Women." Lest we forget..."100 years of great women" should never include a traitor whose hands are covered with the blood of so many patriots. There are few things I have strong visceral reactions to, but Hanoi Jane's participation in blatant treason, is one of them.
(The views above are NOT necessarily those of Calach, the mild mannered Scottish folk singer)