Tech: Windows vs. Languages/Characters

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Windows vs. Languages/Characters
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 11:25 PM

Bill D -

An interesting program. I have bookmarked it for later, but can't promise when I'll get back to it.

Unfortunately, my application - the reason for my "research," has to be limited to what works "officially" within the Windows/Office family. It's a business support thing.

The thing that looked interesting, for those who might need it, is that Win95 and later do provide the capability for using a different keyboard - even it's only by simulation - and that many characters not otherwise readily available may be accessible this way. For someone corresponding in another language, it would seem the thing to do, as opposed to "picking" characters one at a time from one of the "translator" programs.

The problem with loading a different keyboard is that, unless you actually have a "physical" sample, with key markings, in your possession, or you learned to type on that kind of keyboard, it's really tough to figure out which key is what.

It also seemed that it might be helpful to point out that it's not really enough to say WinXX and OfficeYY in some cases. What Micro$oft calls "localization" can result in discussions in which both sides are "right" within their own context, but they don't realize that they're talking about different situations - especially if they're not aware of the existence of, in this case, the "localized" softare (and hardware) tools.

I had been aware that there were some differences between the keyboards typically sold in Europe and those in the US, but was not fully aware of the rather large number of variations and the extent of the differences until I started "poking around."

Micro$oft often doesn't make it easy to use the features present. Help file instructions tell you how to turn on another language, but they don't tell you that you have to turn on a keyboard appropriate to that language before you can easily use the characters the language contains. It has also been impossible, so far, to find anything resembling a keyboard "picture" showing how characters on anything but a standard US QWERTY keyboard is mapped. Two flavors of Dvorak keyboards are available, and I've known people interested in a tryout on one. While I can find a generic layout elsewhere, you would apparently have to go by the "brand markings" to know which of the Windows options to use.

I don't use Word2000, although my S.O. does, and I haven't investigated whether the Visual Keyboard is useable on anything else. It wasn't immediately apparent in the article I found.

Other bits and pieces I posted are not necessarily related to my own needs - they're just things that popped up while I was searching for something else, and looked like they might be helpful to a few 'catters. It seems you usually find more interesting things about stuff you didn't need to know than you find simple answers to what you went looking for when searching the KB; but I guess "that's the research business."

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Windows vs. Languages/Characters
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 06:05 PM

There are screen resolutions under 1024X 768??

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Windows vs. Languages/Characters
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 04:40 PM

oh...at the very bottom of the page is this disclaimer..

"Known Problems

Does not work with Word 2000."

figgers...

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Windows vs. Languages/Characters
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 04:38 PM

John...a short while back, I found this program , which purports to make it possible to do many of the things you mention, especially left-to-right typing in various language fonts. I have barely had time to look at it yet--perhaps you would be able to render an opinion about its efficacy faster than I would *grin*...it looks very interesting!

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Windows vs. Languages/Characters
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 03:53 PM

misophist -

Presuming you're referring to the Virtual Keyboard: The character selector only shows you the characters that go with the "keyboard" you're set up to use. There are some characters shown on the selector for which you don't have a key, but the keyboard selected for use and the "languages" installed will change what characters show up there.

If you change "keyboards" it is likely that keys (sometimes many of them) will type characters other than what you're used to, and some things will be in different places. Character selector doesn't tell you "where the h.. is it on that new keyboard I just turned on." What keys are moved if I switch from "Canadian Standard" to "Canadian Multilingual," for example? (I don't really need to know, now; but those are just two readily available "keyboards.")

The VK isn't a "for everybody" thing, and may only work with Word2000, but a few people with special needs have asked for help with characters that most of us don't need.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Windows vs. Languages/Characters
From: mack/misophist
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 12:08 PM

For something that's maybe a little easier to use, check out the 'character selecter' that comes with Win98.

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Windows vs. Languages/Characters
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 04:58 AM

Sure there is! The excuse is stupidity. Runs rampant in Redmond.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Windows vs. Languages/Characters
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 04:40 AM

Arghh!

You need a screen 1024 pixels wide to view the new Knowledge Base efficiently.

There really is no excuse for that.

Subject: Tech: Windows vs. Languages/Characters
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 04:35 AM

While strolling through the Micro$oft Knowledge Base (Yeah, it's a rough neighborhood, but the park was closed) I came across a couple of items that might be of interest to some of our people.

NEW KNOWLEDGE BASE INTERFACE: Of perhaps general interest is a "new interface" at the Knowledge Base (KB) that is a little easier to use, and a lot prettier. I've found that my old link to the KB sometimes takes me to the old "text based" page, and sometimes to the new, but you should be able to go directly to the new "pretty" one at the New Knowledge Base Interface. The new interface does make searching a little more friendly. The jury is still out on whether it actually makes finding any better.

I've found that links to stuff "deep" in the KB sometimes don't work well from the "outside world," so articles with a document "Q number" are most readily found by going to the above site, scrolling to the bottom, and entering the article number, as for Q241125 next below.

FOREIGN LANGUAGE CHARACTERS: A couple of people have asked about typing characters with diacritical markings that are not found in the common Windows fonts. Some "workarounds" have been found, but KB article Q241125 WD2000: General Information about the Microsoft Visual Keyboard may present an easier answer than has been found previously.

"Visual Keyboard is a program that supports typing in more than one language on the same computer by showing you a keyboard for another language on your screen. … Visual Keyboard lets you see on your screen the keyboard for the language you have switched to, so that you can either click the keys on your screen or see the correct keys to press to enter text. … You can also see the Unicode code for any character on the keyboard by resting the mouse over the key on the Visual Keyboard."

The VK is normally part of the "Multilingual CD Pack" (see below), but can be downloaded per instructions in the article.

Caveat 1: Information on the VK appears only in Win2000/Word2000 support sections, but it appears to give instructions for using it in Win95/Win98. It may work only in Word2000, which I believe can be installed on Win98??
Caveat 2: It probably will work only if you have installed "Multilanguage" support for the language and the keyboard layout (even if you don't have the keyboard) for the language you want. You will probably need your WinXX CD for this installation, for those languages of interest.
Caveat 3: Just because you can type it in your ordinary correspondence doesn't mean that readers will see it if you post it in html. (Musical application: Maybe it will make correspondence easier while you collect those tunes you're going to post.) Caveat 3: I haven't tried to install this thing (yet) so can't really make any recommendation.

''INTERNATIONAL CHARACTERS:'' There was a lot of discussion about the "euro" in a couple of threads. KB article Q263585 How to Type International Characters on an English Keyboard indirectly offers some clarification. What it leaves out is that "English" is "localized" depending on where you buy your Windows and/or Office software. US buyers get a default to the "English 101" keyboard, while "European" and other buyers may get a "localized English" or "International English" keyboard (as the default). This article tells you how to set your keyboard to "International English" so that you can type the "International Characters." It does not tell you what those characters are, or where to find them on the keyboard (If you don't actually have the "international keyboard," maybe you need the VK above).

Caveat 1: US users are warned that setting the "International English" keyboard will make your stuff look funny. Example, the "double-quote" no longer works. You have to hit the "single-quote" twice (on my keyboard).
Caveat 2: You may need to install other language support appropriate to the keyboard you choose.
Caveat 3: You will probably need your WinXX installation CD to install a new keyboard, and/or the language support to go with one. (You may find the files needed if backup .CAB files are on your hard drive?)

GENERAL LANGUAGES ISSUES: (This was the original subject of my walk through the KB maze). So far as I can tell, Win98/95 WinME and Office97 and earlier users CANNOT readily add support for any of those "right to left" or "top to bottom" languages unless their original installation was "localized" in one of those languages. This includes Japanese/Chinese "complex" forms, and Hebrew/Arabic, etc. Users of Win2000 and WinXP, Office2000/OfficeXP CAN add "complex language support," from the "Multilingual CD Pack," although thus far Micro$oft declines to tell me where one obtains the Multilingual Pack - or how many mega$$$$ it might cost. Apparently, they assume that it will be of use only for persons deploying multilingual functions on an "International Enterprise System," and info on the MLP must be buried somewhere in their "servers" data. I don't know that anyone is interested in this, but we do have a very diverse group. It's also quite likely someone else has made more progress here than I have.

"Simple" (alphabets and left-to-right) language support in WinXX and OfficeXX is apparently fairly easy, if one could sort out the "adspeak" and get to the "whazzis" info. Reportedly, Internet Explorer 4 is "Unicode based," and "Unicode functionality" was significantly improved in IE5. Either of these should permit some fairly versatile applications - and more features than we normally use. "The hurt is in the details."

"I only do this because it feels so good when I stop."

John