BS: NYFD Chaplain

Subject: RE: BS: NYFD Chaplain
From: tremodt
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 08:41 PM

Thank you all for your postings

They were all bvery meaningful to me

I do support his right to be Gay

He was an inspiration to many a fireman in New York and he was a true Irishman

wether on the gallows high or the battle field we die

ron

Subject: RE: BS: NYFD Chaplain
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 04:05 PM

The one we were hoping would get canonized, Dr. Tom Dooley, is said to be gay. Makes no difference to me whether someone is or not, and I don't care if priests are or not. If they are not celibate, and engage in consensual, healthy, sex with mature adults, that is not my business, any more than if my dentist is or isn't. I haven't been so much shocked at the latest things about the do-nothing bishops as realized that they are just not smart enough to make any decisions about anything at all, much less sex. If a priest is an abuser, I only care about whether he is absolutely removed from any contact from potential victims; probably jail like for other pedophiles. I do not care if they are removed from the priesthood after serving jail time; if there is a totally safe place, counting collection money, polishing pews, arranging the altar flowers, I don't care as long as they can not ever touch another child or helpless person.

And unless you grew up in this or a similar religion, you can't probably imagine how anti-adult, anti-heterosexual, anti-even marital sex the Church was. We have to look at how that led to producing these sorts of men. Are they aberrations or are they the result of that sort of upbringing?

mg

Subject: RE: BS: NYFD Chaplain
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 03:50 PM

Larry,

One of the reasons that I am no longer a practicing Catholic is becuase of rules like this. Is the Church breaking God's laws? Not intentionally, I believe that they think they are making the best decisions when laying down doctrine. I know a few Priests who left the Priesthood to get married, the Catholic Church is much worse off for losing them. But, they chose to leave the Priesthood because they weren't willing to adhere to the laws of the Catholic Church.

I guess that my concern is that an openly gay Priest is publicly defying Church Law everyday.

Subject: RE: BS: NYFD Chaplain
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 03:31 PM

As was said of him (one more thing...) Mike was a friend to the firefighters, a friend to the poor, a friend to the marginalized, a friend to gay people, a friend to his parishoners, and a friend of Bill.
Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: NYFD Chaplain
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 03:29 PM

Dear Steve: I think the real question before us is weither or not the church is breaking God's law. When the church's homophobia alianates young folks to the point of suiside, while at the same time pedophilia is rampant in that institution and covered up, well, my bet is that God didn't have a big problem with the way Mike lived his very sainted life.
The fire department was just one aspect. I don't know when he slept. He was at hospitals at 3am tending to the spirtual needs of folks dieing of AIDs he was a active parish preist, confessor to the Gaelic speaking crowd on Roosvelt Ave, and always in the front lines at fires. He defined sainthood.
Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: BS: NYFD Chaplain
From: Cappuccino
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 02:17 PM

A lovely vision!

What impressed me is that the guy died in the front line - he was being where a chaplain should be. From this side of the Atlantic, I'd never heard of the guy before, and now I wish I had. He seems to have been a thoroughly admirable man.

- Ian B

Subject: RE: BS: NYFD Chaplain
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 12:51 PM

Steve, I too was raised Roman Catholic. My family was active in all phases of our local church life. My brothers were altar boys. Our priests were mostly ex- chaplains from WWII - all good decent men. I spent many hours working alone in the rectory as a child and was never harmed. My brothers tell me the same. The second tragedy resulting from the recent scandals is the distrust of the majority of religious.

John Hardly, Priests have been accused of raping girls both here and in Europe. I know personally of a priest in upstate NY who was moved from parish to parish and out of state because of his attacks on young girls. His picture was in the police files and dragged out whenever an attack occurred locally. The police had been warned.

Sorry all. My original post seems to have taken this thread off onto another subject entirely. Father Mike led a good life devoted to helping people, in particular firefighters. He died as he lived looking after the people in his care without regard for his own safety. If there is an afterlife, I find it hard to believe that he was not welcomed into Paradise with open arms. Were he not, I have this wonderful vision of hundreds of firemen blocking the gate while St. Peter makes an emergency call to Salvation Central for instructions.

Subject: RE: BS: NYFD Chaplain
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 12:10 PM

I was raised in the Catholic Church, attended a Boy's only High School that was run by the Basilian Fathers. Many of my beliefs were formed by the Church, but I am not a practicing Catholic because I disagree with several things that are Catholic Law.

Where I think that this is an issue is that the Catholic Church forbids homosexuality. This Priest was breaking that law. I'm not saying I agree with the rule, nor do I agree with not allowing women Priests, not allowing Priests to marry etc. I also don't see the point in Jews not being able to eat pork, but I don't make the rules.

For the record, given all the garbage that is going on with the church these days I can honestly say I have never heard of a single incident at the school I attended. The Basialians were wonderful men.

Subject: RE: BS: NYFD Chaplain
From: IvanB
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 11:51 AM

...and the issue of whether he (or any other RC priest for that matter) is celibate is between the priest and his confessor, unless an illegal activity is taking place (and I'm not referring to 'fornication' or 'adultery,' which are technically illegal in many areas but seem to be accepted behavior under current mores). I guess, for me, a priest who is not celibate but confesses and does penance is no less 'honorable' than a Roman Catholic layperson who regularly confesses to adultery to achieve the required 'state of grace' for communion, fully knowing that s/he will continue that behavior. But then I'm not Roman Catholic, so the whole idea of priestly celibacy seems archaic to me anyway.

But enough with thread creep. I believe what's being said here by several members of our community is that Fr. Mike was an honorable and brave man, period, and that his sexual orientation should not be an issue in making that statement. With that opinion I'm in total agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: NYFD Chaplain
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 09:13 AM

the only thing, relative to the church that should have mattered should have been was he celibate?.

His "orientation" indeed should not have mattered unless it meant that he was not honoring his vows -- in which case he would not have been an honorable priest.

The third rail of public discourse regarding all the breaking "news" about pedophilia in the priesthood, is the obvious avoidance of the issue of (active?) homosexuality in the priesthood. If the two (homosexuality and pedophilia) are not connected then I don't think there should be such an avoidance, but the priests aren't molesting little girls...

Subject: RE: BS: NYFD Chaplain
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 01:04 AM

Yes Art. And I was agreeing with you.

Subject: RE: BS: NYFD Chaplain
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 09:47 PM

That was actually my point. A person can be brave and devoted to others, and his sexual orientation should not even be an issue. We have gotten a lot closer to the point in time where we no longer say, or even think about, black policemen (etc understood) or female firefighters. We need to be at the same place with people who are gay, where we don't point fingers and say "see, he was gay and he was a great guy and a brave man anyway".

Subject: RE: BS: NYFD Chaplain
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 09:21 PM

Well said Sins......Very well said.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: NYFD Chaplain
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 09:11 PM

I'm not sure, art. Perhaps, the fact that an incredibly brave and devoted man happened also to be gay will give hardliners, who contend that gays are perverts and have no place in decent society, pause. Father Mike is a beloved figure in New York. His final sacrifice has been written about in newspapers throughout the world. I find it ironic that in a time when the clergy of every religion is being shaken by accusations of rape and child molestation, a simple, gay priest serves as a model of bravery, decency, loyalty.

Subject: RE: BS: NYFD Chaplain
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 08:10 PM

And why should anybody care...and if they do care, why would it be any of their business?

Subject: RE: BS: NYFD Chaplain
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 08:02 PM

In fact for a long time it was not a secret or an issue with the FDNY. I had the honnor to sing Engine 33 at one of the two memorials for him a few weeks after he died, and a fireman said to the cogrigation... "I am an openly gay fireman, here to bury my openly gay priest."
Cheers, Larry

Subject: NYFD Chaplain
From: tremodt
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 02:01 PM

I believe i posted a message here on or about Fr. Mike Judge

I posted this message last november

I said at that time he was gay

I was soundly trounced and called whatever

but now i have been vindicated

But being Gay does not make him a bad guy

He was loved and respected by most of the members of the FDNY

The Fire Dept commissioner knew this about 2 years ago

Ron