Tech: Hard Disk problem?

Subject: RE: TECH: Hard Disk problem?
From: Ed.
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 10:53 AM

Many thanks for your help, everyone.

I shall follow up the suggestings regarding the fan over the weekend.

If I have no luck, a very kind Catter who lives locally to me (Dave the Gnome) has offered to help me get sorted.

Ed

Subject: RE: TECH: Hard Disk problem?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 10:27 AM

First rule of using computers = always backup your files for WHEN your HD fails...it is not a question of IF ... sometime it WILL.

Two hard-drives are recommended and never let either one get more than 50% full - since data is stored on the outside edges first the responce slows substantially as it gets full.

The main disk is for programs and opperations - the second drive contains a mirror of the first drive's setup and programs and is for data storage.

Subject: RE: TECH: Hard Disk problem?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 03:06 AM

The "power management" stuff got really popular when "portables" and "lap tops" became more common. If you want anything approaching decent operating time off of batteries, you really need a system to save all you can.

There are lots of opinions and few facts about what's best for a normal "office" machine.

I tend to agree with what seems to be the prevailing notion that for modern displays, the voltage shock from turning the display on and off does more damage than just leaving it on. Under normal circumstances, the current phosphers will outlast the rest of the monitor, so even "dimming" or "blanking" the display are probably not really necessary. (Screen savers are completely unnecessary as a protection for the monitor on current equipment - but they have other valid uses.)

For hard drives - in the olden days of 5 or ten years ago, most data losses from hard drives seemed to be caused by "hard landings" during shutdown, or "take off skids" during startup. Thus if your main concern was protecting the data, you left them running, even if it did cost a little in total lifetime of the drive. It's likely that manufacturers have solved most of the problems related to the heads "rubbing" stuff off the disks, so the most likely cause of failure is just wearing out the bearings, or failure of the built-in circuits. A good set of bearings, properly installed, won't wear out - unless some crud gets into them. Hard drives are sealed, but are not hermetically sealed, meaning that air, and sometimes other junk, does go in and out. Allowing the drive to overheat can break down the lubricant, which then acts just like someone threw sand into the bearings.

A bearing running at nominally constant speed and load will push some of the crap aside, to make it's own clean ball track; but when the drive starts and stops, the "track" within the bearing changes and the balls may pick up damaging dirt and move it back into the track. So starting and stopping may still damage the drive more than leaving it running.

I have not purchased a new machine in the last 20 years that didn't come with hard drives from the same sources I would choose if I bought them separately, but I don't know what "cheap" drives may be available - since I haven't been interested in getting (an inferior) one.

If your hard drive spins up and then spins down every few minutes, you apparently have a "partly on" power management system. If you turn it OFF completely, the disks should run continuously. If you hear "disk noise" when they power up and down, it's also possible that what you're hearing is actually (at least partially) fan noise. Many newer computers use "managed cooling" that's coordinated with the "managed power," so that the fan speeds up when the drive starts.

Whether to use power-down features, or which ones to use, is pretty much a matter of personal preference. My machine is meant to be used, so when I turn it on, I want it ON, and when I turn it off, it's off. I only (usually) turn off when I'm going to be away, and because of our weather - if it's off it's usually also unplugged.

John

Subject: RE: TECH: Hard Disk problem?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 02:53 AM

Dear Ed - JohninKansas just gave you a $200.00 U.S. lesson in diagnostics...at various times I've experienced about 1/3 of them over the last ten years.

The erratic power spikes was a major, (early too cheap youth) two year, bug-ga-bo that was resolved with a premium surg protector....and a new powerline from the utility.

Follow JohninKansas steps - you will learn a lot and save even more.

Have a FUN and LEARNING FILLED WEEKEND....its worth educating yourself.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: TECH: Hard Disk problem?
From: NicoleC
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 01:41 AM

Good point about the power, John. Another interesting experiment would be to go into the BIOS and set the boot order to try the hard drive first. If the machine is actually rebooting, it will just reboot from the hard drive and you won't get the error message.

I did have a Win 98SE machine with a spontaneous reboot problem once. Never quite did nail it down other than it being a power issue, but I converted the machine to Linux and never had it happen again. That might be a drastic move :)

I disagree about disabling ALL of the power settings, though. I never shut down CPU function, but I always let the hard drives shut off, as low grade drives (read: factory installed) tend to die under the constant activity. Not to mention the intermittent annoying noise every 2 minutes as the hard drive spins up and then spins down again.

Subject: RE: TECH: Hard Disk problem?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 05:12 AM

Ed -

If you think you may have a hard drive failure coming on, you should immediately print yourself a copy of Q166172 Duplicating Windows 95/98/98 Second Edition Installation to a New Hard Disk from the Mickey$oft Knowledge Base, and make the appropriate backups. It is possible to transfer your existing setup without a lot of reconfiuring, but you have to plan ahead.

If you have an available set of connections on your disk controller, you might consider installing a second drive before the old one fails, just so you've got someplace to save things while they're still there.
A simple-minded reading of your first post is that you have a boot problem. Win98SE should not ask you to insert a bootable floppy unless
- worst case: it can't find the boot sector on your hard drive, or
- trivial case: there's a floppy in the drive when it tries to boot.

Plug and play isn't great on Win98SE, but it should not stop a boot because of a device conflict. It should ask you what to do about the conflict, perhaps. In most cases, it should finish the boot and then give you an error message.

Your second problem is that the system shuts down - and tries to restart - when you don't expect it to. Most Win98SE system failures result in a "lockup" with the blue screen, black screen, an error message, or simply with all inputs "frozen." You have to "intervene" to force it to shut down and reboot. There are very few circumstances where it will attempt to "reboot itself."

Your third problem is that you have noises.

Of course, any time there's a problem, the first thing we should all do is run a virus scan from an up-to-date signature file. 'nuf said.

Unless you have deliberately set up to boot from a floppy you should be able to boot from your hard drive. If it doesn't boot there, that's probably the first thing to try to fix.

The most likely cause of unexpected reboots is the "ecologically correct" power management sytems that have been added to recent machines. Check "Start-Settings-Control Panel - Power" for any settings that you don't want. Different manufacturers put different stuff here, and none of them will give you a clear explanation of what it's all for. For the most part, my advice would be to turn everything there "off" - i.e. don't let the machine "sleep," "power down" or anything else based on these settings.

A less likely cause, mentioned above, is system overheat that causes a thermal protection device to shut things off. If these devices ever trip, they usually degrade so that they trip more easily the next time - so they can cause a progressive condition where things just keep getting worse. It is possible that you have a real overheat condition if your fan is failing, or even from something as simple as new NIC card being in a slot where it blocks the air flow.

A third possibility is that you have a "dirty" power circuit that has frequent momentary drops in the power. With an adequate power supply, the "hang time" is usually sufficient to ride through any dropout that isn't obvious - as in "you're in the dark;" but if your power supply is marginal, the system can drop out on "interrupts" that don't even dim the lights visibly. This is one of the few "fairly common" malfunctions that will cause an unexpected reboot.

The most common cause of unexplained "noise" from a PC is the fan. You should certainly check to see that it's clean, that it runs, and that the blade doesn't wiggle. Replacement is cheap, and usually quite simple. Some systems have the fan (or a fan) buried in the power supply where it's harder to get to, and quite a few systems these days have both a power supply fan and a separate case fan. You'll have to look.

I assume that the NIC you installed to connect to your cable modem is an etherlink card. As mentioned above, there are some known problems with using two identical cards, but they are not common. In the most common setup, you need one hardware device to connect to the internet, and a separate device to connect to your LAN, both in the machine that makes the connection to your internet service. Either hardware device is commonly referred to as a NIC. Your internet NIC can be an etherlink card, a USB port, a modem, or any of several other things. In most cases, your LAN NIC will be an etherlink card.

You need a Network Adapter (NA), which is the software driver that controls a NIC, linked to whatever piece of hardware connects you to your LAN, and a separate NA linked to whatever device connects you to the internet.

As long as one of your machines connects directly to your internet provider, you can connect other machines using a simple hub.

An alternate approach is to connect all of your machines to the LAN through a ROUTER (which replaces the hub), and connect the router to the internet service. This is the method that you pretty much had to use prior to the introduction of Internet Connection Sharing (yes, they call it ICS) with Win98SE and later. It is still probably the preferred method for larger networks, but for most of us it is vastly more complex to setup than the ICS method described above. (It's "simple" once you've done it, but it's tough for a "novice" to get straight answers about it. It also makes it easier for your ISP to require specific setup on your machine.)

If you need a "refresher," you can get a fairly good summary of how to share your internet connection most simply in Q234815 "Description of Internet Connection Sharing." The article is somewhat "dated," but has most of the essentials.

John

Subject: RE: TECH: Hard Disk problem?
From: NicoleC
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 01:40 AM

Ed,

I'm haven't configured a cable modem myself, but from what I've read if you have one IP address (typical, unless you pay for another one) you usually share the connection through a broadband router over your existing LAN and using ICS. The cable modem connects directly into the router.

But if isn't your lock-up problem and your connection is working well, there's no reason to worry about it. If you can, you might want to experiment with disabling one of the NICs for a few days (don't uninstall it) to see if your lock-ups go away. If they do, you probably have a NIC driver conflict.

Subject: RE: TECH: Hard Disk problem?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 09:02 PM

I doubt that it is your HD.

The noise is probably the fan $10.00 US

Replace the fan - and perhaps your entire power unit, (get a good one 350 or more $85.00.)

When your CPU or transformer overheats it clicks a breaker. When it resets it tries to reboot after an incorrect shutdown procedure. You may need to disconnect the power-plug to get the breaker to trip on sooner.

Temporary fix - take off the case and use a household fan to blow on the unit. See what happens for 24 hours. More than likely you are asking too much from an inadequate power-supply.

BTW - booting from the a: drive is a good precaution in avoiding a HD virus infection and trojans. (but not fool-proof, just one of many steps you should follow.)

Good Luck, and HAVE FUN!

Gargoyle

Subject: RE: TECH: Hard Disk problem?
From: vectis
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 08:28 PM

Check you havn't got a glitch in the screen saver or the "monitor turning of if you leave everything running" departments before you do anything else. My machine and monitor used to argue something chronic and I ended up having to use reset or even give up and turn the ruddy thing off. My hubby found a conflict or something in my system setup and turned off the "power and screen saving" doodahs. Problem solved.

Subject: RE: TECH: Hard Disk problem?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 08:12 PM

Not too long ago I spent several months worrying about pending hard drive failure on a machine because of the horrible noises "the hard drive was making" - but the noise went away when I replaced the fan. ...

It can be so.o.o confusing.

I run Win98SE, and don't have a problem with leaving it on for weeks at a time. The key is that Win98SE, like most systems, suffers more from "memory leaks" if you are using a lot of "virtual memory" via temp files on disk. Mickey$oft says that 64MB of RAM is enough to run Win98, but its sort of a "joke" to try to run that way. My memory leak problems (time-dependent crashes, usually just "lockups with no bluescreen) all went away when I went to 96MB, and I currently am running at 512MB RAM.

Routers and Hubs are two different animals, but for the simple home LAN a Hub is sufficient. I've been running a "Workgroup" LAN using an 8-port Hub for over 5 years now, and currently have 4 machines set up - through the Hub - to use the modem on one machine via ICS (Internet Connection Sharing).

There are situations in which one machine needs two separate NICs (Network Interface Cards) but in many cases you can get by with one NIC with two NAs (Network Adapters). A lot of confusion has been generated by the common (and despicable) use of NA to mean either the hardware or the driver software.

The machine that connects to the web/email and shares the connection with other machines on a LAN must usually have two Network Adapters installed. This is a software setup installation. In my installation, the master machine has one NA linked to the etherlink card (NIC) to connect to my LAN, and a separate NA linked to the modem.

There are known problems associated with using two (or more) hardware NICs of the same brand and model in a single machine - usually resolvable, with the simplest solution being to replace one of the cards with something from another vendor. There are a couple of articles on this at the Mickey$oft Knowledge Base website. The 3COM 3C09 card is one commonly cited - but then it's in a lot more machines than anything else.

There is a good possiblity that the symptoms described are related to the "power management features" of the machine, but there are too many variations (and too little documentation) for much in the way of "remote diagnosis."

With the possiblity that you may have a "failing" hard drive, frequent backup is, of course, mandatory. Be advised though, that while Microsoft is big on "backup," they're not really with it on "restore." The Win2000 Professional Resource Kit manual lists 84 separate index entries on "backup," but so far as I have been able to determine, the work "restore" does not occur in any Mickey$oft documentation - except in the KB article that admits that WinXP backups using the official XP "backup" cannot be restored. (Oooops!)

There is an "official" procedure for "mirroring" a Win98SE system so that it can be restored to the same machine, but it is somewhat arcane. If you have original installation CDs, and you back up your data, you shouldn't really need it.

John

Subject: RE: TECH: Hard Disk problem?
From: GUEST,DW at work
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 07:29 PM

Sounds a lot like the fan not cutting in. That'll toast it every time.

Art - if only that problem was cured so easily. It's been a while if you know what I mean.

DW

Subject: RE: TECH: Hard Disk problem?
From: paul0
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 06:56 PM

Another thing that you might want to check, as it may have led to the hd failing, is to make sure that you are getting sufficient cooling in your drive bays. The horrible thunk sound could be a fan not starting up in your power supply or case. The heat then builds up and poof, toasts your nice hard drive. Cooling is pretty cheap, and makes the computer last a lot longer.

Paul

Subject: RE: TECH: Hard Disk problem?
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 04:57 PM

Art -- put your reading glasses on!

BJ

Subject: RE: TECH: Hard Disk problem?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 04:02 PM

I was told by my urologist that when this happens (maybe from taking Viagra or an injection) that a hot bath will alleviate the problem.

Just a word to the wise.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: TECH: Hard Disk problem?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 02:07 PM

Hesperis,

Are you sure that you're not talking about a Router rather than a Hub?

If you are talking about a hub, please tell me how you did it, because everything I've read suggests that you need 2 NICs in one of the machines.

Ed

Subject: RE: TECH: Hard Disk problem?
From: hesperis
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 01:03 PM

For a friend, I recently set up a hub to share a net connection, and it's really easy, works well, and both machines only have to have the one card.

Modem - line to hub - hub < line to each computer = Very easy.

Subject: RE: TECH: Hard Disk problem?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 11:18 AM

Thanks,

I'm now pretty certain that it's a hard disk fault.

Today, the machine has been making horrible clunking noises, and I can barely get as far as windows before it dies.

Nicole,

The machine has two NICs in order to share a cable internet connection (the reason why I networked them to begin with)

I could connect the cable modem via USB. Once I've got a new hard drive sorted, do you think that'd be a better option?

Ed

Subject: RE: TECH: Hard Disk problem?
From: NicoleC
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 10:04 PM

Ed,

That's an interesting error message. Windows 98 is not very stable, and leaving it on most of the time usually isn't advised. Something more bulletproof like NT or 2000 is a better choice for an always-on machine. Maybe you can work around it.

You have a machine with two NICs in it? Is there a particular reason for this configuration? It's a configuration asking for trouble, because NIC drivers have a habit of conflicting with each other. If you are only using one NIC, disable the other in your hardware configuration, and update the drivers of the remaining one.

My other thought is that the machine has a sleep feature, and when it's waking up it looks for the boot diskette. It's often an OEM thing, not necessarily Windows itself. If so, you can usually disable the sleep feature in the BIOS. Otherwise, look in your Windows power settings. It's good to shut off the monitor and spin down the hard drives, but you don't want it to go into "Standby" or "Hibernate" -- if you have one, use the OEM power utility, not the Windows control panel.

It is possible that it's a hard disk problem. Backup often until you get this resolved!

Subject: RE: TECH: Hard Disk problem?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 07:43 PM

The crash you describe is one I've encountered a couple of times on PCs running Win2000, which in my experience is normally very stable. In my case the crashes were in some way time-related - maybe system resources being used up and not properly released again until a hard reboot. That may be what's happening in your case - probably a glitch arising from the new configuration. If you have different OSs on the two machines, and one can see the other, wholly or in part, that too could be a factor.

Anyway, maybe someone will weigh in with an informed view, and maybe solution, now I've refreshed the thread.

Subject: TECH: Hard Disk problem?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 05:05 PM

I've recently networked the two computers in my house, but have no idea if the problem I'm suffering from has anything to with this, or whether it's a coincidence. The problem has however only occurred since I've tinkered.

The problem is the machine with two NICs in it. Generally, it works well. It occasionally makes odd noises (hence my thinking it's a hard disk problem) but scandisk works fine, it boots fine etc.

Since networking the 2 PCs, this one stays on pretty much all the time.

However, about every 8 hours or so, it dies. No 'Blue Screen of Death' but straight to a black screen with:

Boot Failure
Insert Boot diskette in A:
Press any key when ready

When this happens, I can reboot and everything works well for another few hours.

Any thoughts much appreciated.

Ed

Oh yes, Win 98 SE