October 25: John of Beverley

Subject: RE: October 25: John of Beverley
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 02:24 PM

As Shakespeare has his father advising him:

"Therefore, my Harry,
Be it thy course to busy giddy minds
With foreign quarrels..."

Henry the Fourth Part Two, Act 4 Scene 5.

Which advice, regrettably, is still taken very seriously indeed by world leaders.

Subject: RE: October 25: John of Beverley
From: Nerd
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 01:24 PM

Hmmm, did Henry V really bayonet babies? Shakespeare didn't invent "your naked infants spitted upon pikes?" Well, you learn something new every day!

As to whether Shakespeare was ridiculing Henry's claims: I don't think so. I think he was showing that BOTH the French claim and Henry's claim were equally (in)valid, because both had resulted from someone at one time coming down through the female line, etc. Thus, France's refusal to pay tribute was no more legally grounded than Henry's invasion. Certainly Shakespeare was showing that the Church and Henry were in collusion to trump up a reason to invade, but beneath it all was the cynical knowledge that there WAS no right of the matter, that the ONLY thing determining who ruled was force of arms.

Subject: RE: October 25: John of Beverley
From: alanabit
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 08:50 AM

No doubt you are right, Greg. I think that the killing of prisoners at Agincourt was probably the result of faulty intelligence. I wouldn't want it on my conscience though! Henry V was undoubtedly pious - both in the ancient and modern senses. A man of his times - and not exactly a golden age.

Subject: RE: October 25: John of Beverley
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 07:23 AM

Well alanabit, everybody deserves to be judged against the standards of their own time, and Henry V was maybe no worse than others. But he does have some pretty repulsive crimes against his name (not the killing of the prisoners at Agincourt,though. I'll let him off that for military necessity).What particularyl grates with me is the hypocritical piety...baptising babies at Rouen before starving them to death for example.

Subject: RE: October 25: John of Beverley
From: alanabit
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 07:12 AM

I'm not sure if Henry V was that big a shit, Greg. I see him more as a product of his times. Putting one over the Frogs is always a good idea, of course. I don't think we've done that since the days of Geoff Hurst and Bobby Charlton - or am I getting my dates mixed up here... On the downside, he was a ruthless militarist and by today's reckoning, a harsh, religious bigot. His war against France - effectively a couple of seasons of organised hooliganism - was so unjust that even Shakespeare ridiculed his claims at the beginning of his play. On the plus side, he did consolidate his throne in the UK during his lifetime and he could at least (like his father) speak English. Neither of those accusations could ever be levelled against the vainglorious, incompetent prat Richard "Couer de Lion". Agincourt was won by a mixture of discipline by the English and Welsh troops, good luck and incomprehesible stupidity on the part of the French. It is said that Henry marched bareheaded to London in humility after the victory, because he at least had the decency to recognise how lucky he had been. I wonder how many jingoistic Brits are aware of the fact that Agincourt was only fought because Henry had lost the campaign and we Brits were bravely trying to run away and get the next Sealink ferry home from Calais? So what did this St.John fellow do to get his sainthood. Did he rescue any Fascists in Franco's Spain?

Subject: RE: October 25: John of Beverley
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 06:49 AM

Very good point, Train Guard. In 1421 Henry V made a tour of England(unusual of him to visit England, he spent most of his time in France bayonetting babies and so on). He visited the shrines both of John of Beverley and John of Bridlington, giving a groat to Jimme of Eldonne at the latter, for "playinge on ye fithele".

Subject: RE: October 25: John of Beverley
From: Train Guard
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 06:38 AM

And what's wrong with Canon John of Thwing, Patron Saint of Bridlington?

Train Guard

Subject: RE: October 25: John of Beverley
From: Oaklet
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 05:42 AM

Greg, I have smeared lime juice on my wrists in hour of John of Beverley and would urge others to do the same.

Subject: October 25: John of Beverley
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 04:37 AM

Yorkshire is not famous for saints, so let us take advantage of today's date to honour John of Beverley (or John of Beverle9 as he was pssibly known in the middle ages).St John of Beverley, who died in 721, had his bones reinterred in Beverley Minster on October 25,1037. This date became important as a bit of a cult developed round him, and Henry V was a big fan. When he won the battle of Agincourt on October 25 (feast day of Saints Crispin and Crispinian), the king persuaded the Church in England to change from honouring that pair of foreigners, and institute St John of Beverley's day officially instead. Well done, John. And well done Henry V for winning at Agincourt,as well. Henry V was a bit of a shit (a very big bit of a shit actually), but at least he showed the Frogs what's what.