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OK to try to reschedule gig?
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: GUEST Date: 13 May 03 - 02:37 PM Susan is in Pennsylvania, Gargoyle-- |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 13 May 03 - 12:25 AM Considering the history of this post.
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: Marion Date: 12 May 03 - 10:03 PM Sounds sensible, Susan, thanks. Marion |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: wysiwyg Date: 12 May 03 - 02:29 PM If I recall from business law, accepting part of what is due can make it harder to collect the rest. Your protection in such an instance is an invoice for the full amount, even one hand-written on the spot. You would mark it as partially paid, showing the balance still due, and leave that with the person who gave you the check. This reduces the problem administratively for the AD, who will appreciate a piece of paper to keep the accountant happy for paying twice for the same vendor, same date of service. Even a business card (with whatever you add on the back) can serve as an invoice in a pinch, and gee! I think I'll keep this in mind myself! :~) In my case, it's donations toward mileage and other expenses that we accept-- and written documentaion clarifying this will become the norm for us. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: Marion Date: 12 May 03 - 11:58 AM New business question. I played a weekend gig where the activity director wasn't present and I dealt with another staff member. When booking the gig on the phone, the AD had offered $60, and I negotiated it up to $75. No written contract though. So after the gig, the staffer presented me with a cheque for 60 and a receipt to sign. I said that I was expecting 75, and she said that the AD had just told her 60. So I accepted the cheque, signed the receipt, and passed on the message that I would call Monday to talk about it. Happy ending this time - the AD called me first on Monday, apologized for the mistake, and said she would mail me the rest. But I'm wondering, for future reference, if I would have been wiser to decline to take the cheque or sign the receipt until it was clarified. What are your thoughts? Marion |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: Marion Date: 14 Mar 03 - 02:40 AM I took a closer look at the info package; it says that Performers who are included in the garden concert program must be professional musicians or music educators. However, there is a list of Value and Special Features for Musicians that includes the following: - Limited time commitment for maximum reward. Limited? Do they honestly not see that they're asking people to commit two days for the price of one? - Free alternative performance space in a prime downtown location. Free? Do they think we usually have to pay to use the stage? I suspect that Susan's right - it isn't really professional musicians that they want to attract. Anyway, if there's anyone in the Toronto area who thinks this sounds like a great deal, PM me and I'll put you in touch...:) Marion |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: Genie Date: 11 Mar 03 - 09:10 PM It's about as fair as when Activity Directors who pay about $50-$60 for a gig and generally book the same folks once or twice a year expect you to come do a free program ("audition") to get those one or two bookings. If they don't decide to hire you, they've gotten a free program. If they do, you'll essentially have done your paid gig(s) for half (or 2/3) the $. But I guess "fair" isn't the question. It's "What will the market bear?" If I thought the gig was worth enough (exposure/publicity, $, etc.), I'd keep both dates open (especially if the rain date wasn't a "prime time" spot like St. Patrick's). Genie |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: wysiwyg Date: 11 Mar 03 - 08:54 PM Sounds to me like they are hoping that there are enough people who are good enough to perform, but still hungry enough to set aside two dates. Local people hoping to make hay on the opportunity. Semi-professionals. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: Marion Date: 11 Mar 03 - 04:45 PM Next business question: There's someone in town looking for musical acts for a series of outdoor, weekly concerts in the summer. They say whenever it rains on the scheduled day (Sundays) the rain date is the following Wednesday. They say that the performers they book must be able to guarantee both the scheduled date and the rain date. I can certainly understand their position, but it does seem hard on the musician to have to commit two time slots for the fee of one, since you wouldn't be able to accept any gigs for the Wednesday. Is there a fair-to-everybody solution that you can see, or does it just come down to whether or not the musician is willing to book two days for the fee? Thanks, Marion PS This is a hypothetical question for me - I'm not applying to be in this series, as I hope to have left town by then. But I am curious as to how others look at this arrangement. |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: Genie Date: 19 Jan 03 - 03:48 AM Good policy, Marion. If you have folks who can and will fill in in a pinch like that, it helps a lot. I'm with you in looking at the long range, the big picture, even when you take a loss on a particular gig. Genie |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: Marion Date: 19 Jan 03 - 02:16 AM Thanks for the further info, Genie. I've had to cancel a couple of things because I was sick - what I did then was arrange for a replacement. I contacted the other musician first to see that he wanted the gigs, then called the ADs and said that I had bad news and good news. I figure that this is much better for public relations than just cancelling, or even just suggesting someone else who might not be able to do it. And when I was recovered enough to go out and play my instruments but my singing voice wasn't up to scratch yet, I hired a singer a couple of times to come with me. These gigs weren't worthwhile for me financially, but I figure that they will pay off in goodwill with the ADs and with the people I've given work to. Cheers, Marion |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: Genie Date: 15 Jan 03 - 09:45 PM Marion, I must not have made myself clear. Yes, by "not turn down" I meant I would ask if I could check my availability and get back to them. I would never cancel a booking that I've agreed to without consulting the client (unless I were paralyzed or something). I would never just cancel a booking, period, except under extraordinary circumstances (e.g., death in the family, laryngitis, etc.). (I have, however, occasionally bargained with regular clients to change the date of a scheduled gig -- e.g., offering them a substantial discount if they are willing to change dates. It's their choice, though. I've gone ahead and done gigs that were a net loss for me, because I had committed to the time and date.) I have found though aggravating experience, though, that quite a few clients (the activity directors and/or their administrators or other corporate bigwigs) do not similarly honor the bookings they make with entertainers -- even when they are in writing. They will call at the last minute (a month, week, day, or even hours before the gig) and say that they have to cancel: ¥ they just noticed they are over budget ¥ Marketing, unbeknownst to them, scheduled a party for the same time ¥ they decided they wanted their party on a different date ¥ they are remodeling the room/building, so it just won't work ¥ the activity director who booked me no longer works there, and they feel no inclination or obligation to honor the bookings they made ¥ the resident council just met and decided not to have the monthly birthday party with entertaiment any more* or any of a number of excuses. Sometimes they say they will reschedule; sometimes they don't offer. If they say they will, sometimes the times they offer for "rescheduling" are so remote (e.g., 10 months later) that it's not really "rescheduling." And sometimes they just can't seem to find a rescheduling time that works for them. If you have a written agreement, you can use it as a reminder or you could take them to small claims court, I guess. But you'd probably lose more than you'd gain that way. This is why, when someone offers me a definite gig for a high-demand time (e.g., St. Patrick's Day), I will contact any previously booked clients, if I can, to reaffirm that booking before I will totally blow off the new offer. Genie *This just happened to me. I was booked last September to do a birthday party for a Retirement Community this January 19. Last week the AD called to say the residents (who pay for the party) voted to cancel all of them because they weren't being well enough attended and they wanted to save their money for other things. (She did re-book me, though, to do one of their monthly dinner-dance parties, but it was only by luck that our schedules clicked for that rescheduling.) |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: Marion Date: 15 Jan 03 - 11:24 AM Thanks for your thoughts everyone. When I reached the first place, they said that they weren't sure if they'd be hiring for a St. Pat's party after all (though initially they had said that they would hire me, it was just a question of picking the date). So good thing I went ahead and accepted the second offer. M.Ted and others, I wasn't sure if you were against holding the tentative booking in this particular case (because it had been a few weeks) or in all cases. For example, another recent true story: someone asked if I could play on a certain afternoon. I said that I was already booked that afternoon but was free in the morning. She said she would consult the team to see if a morning party would be OK and get back to me the next day. I think this is a much more reasonable situation for me to hold the time open for her - what do you think? Genie, I was surprised by this statement: EVEN IF I HAVE AN ORAL COMMITMENT to a previous engagement, I would not turn down the 'bird in the hand' unless I had something in writing or had a relationship with the first client such that I could trust them not to cancel on me at the last minute. Am I misunderstanding you, or are you saying that you don't consider a gentlewoman's agreement made on the phone to be a commitment? When I make such an agreement, I know I might have an emergency and not be able to make it, and I know they might still cancel, but that's out of my control, and I treat the phone agreement as binding. And how can you accept the "bird in hand" offer without calling the oral-agreement place to cancel? Or perhaps by "not turn down" you didn't mean "accept" but rather that you tell them that you may or not be free and will let them know later. Marion |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: Hrothgar Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:45 PM Take the solid gig, and tell the first party that only one date is now open. |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: wysiwyg Date: 10 Jan 03 - 11:26 AM Depends how much you want either or both of these offers, and how serious the first one was about working with you-- were they saying you would get a gig but not sure which date/time, or were they saying they were considering you? If you want to risk losing the new offer, you can ask them to wait while you check with the tentative one. But what I would do, personally, is take the firm offer as soon as it's offered, and then notify the tentative one that you have not been able to hold that portion of the time-- "since I had not heard from you I accepted this offer" kind of thing-- then let them know you are still interested in working with them if your scheduling will permit. They need to understand that a busy working professional can't reserve time indefinitely, and you need to plan to communicate with potential bookers how far in advance you generally try to get your bookings confirmed. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: Genie Date: 10 Jan 03 - 01:37 AM Marion, in situations like yours I tell both parties, straight up, what the situation is. To the one who offers me the definite gig, if I have made a tentative commitment to someone else, I ask if I can get back to them by, say, the next day--that I will accept their offer if the former offer is not confirmed within that time period. If the original offer is still tentative, I just tell them that I can't (won't) hold the spot for them without a commitment. The devil is, of course, in the details. What was promised in the origninal negotiations, and by whom? If the conversation was just exploratory, I feel no obligation to 'honor' a 'booking' that really was not one. But I would still call those folks to let them know that it's no longer an option. If I said I'd "save the spot" for them until further notice, I'd still give them first shot at it, provided I can reach them promptly. EVEN IF I HAVE AN ORAL COMMITMENT to a previous engagement, I would not turn down the 'bird in the hand' unless I had something in writing or had a relationship with the first client such that I could trust them not to cancel on me at the last minute. That's the time for written contracts, even if you don't routinely use them. Genie |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: Maryrrf Date: 09 Jan 03 - 06:41 PM Definitely take the gig that's a firm offer. You gave her a couple of reminder calls and she didn't have the courtesy to get back to you, so I wouldn't think you owe her anything. |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: vectis Date: 09 Jan 03 - 06:38 PM Yes, take it. A gig in the hand is worth two in the air :-) |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: GUEST,MTed Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:55 PM This shouldn't even be a question--take the job that's offered, don't EVER put off accepting a solid offer to wait for the one that might be offered, because they generally don't come through--*If* your friend has a party, and *if* she has entertainment, it *might* be you--not enough to take to the bank-- |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: Wesley S Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:08 PM Marion - I'd be tempted to call the first customer and tell them they have 24/48 hours to commit. If you don't hear from them in that time then you're free to do what you like. They've had a "few weeks" to make up their minds. It's not like you're being unfair to the first customer. In my humble opinion. |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: C-flat Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:04 PM Take the gig that's on offer. You couldn't have tried harder to accomodate the first request and as they haven't had the courtesy to confirm your date you're not obligated in any way to them. It shows a lack of respect that they assume you're just sitting on your hands waiting for them to do you the favour of booking you. Just my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: Marion Date: 09 Jan 03 - 12:36 PM Related question: what are your policies on keeping a tentative booking open for someone? A few weeks ago someone asked me if I could play a St. Pat's gig on March 11 or 18 - she wasn't sure yet which date they would have the party. I said that I was available either day, and she said she would let me know, which she hasn't yet despite a couple of reminder calls. Now someone else has asked me if I'm free the 11th. I realize now that I should have made it clear with the first place how long I would keep those dates open for her, especially so close to St. Pat's. So I'm looking for advice on two things: what to do in this situation, given the mistake I've made; and what the best approach is for the future. Refuse to commit to anything until they've committed to me? Make a policy that I'll hold a tentative booking for a certain amount of time (how long?) after the initial discussion, or before the date in question? Thanks, Marion |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: Genie Date: 01 Nov 02 - 04:16 PM Good show, Marion! |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: Marion Date: 31 Oct 02 - 06:12 PM It's all settled: Jaimie Snyder is going to play for me at the second place (go look at Rick's radio show archive if you want to know who he is, he's a guest on one of those shows). They should be kissing my ass for finding them so great a player willing to play for so little - but I know they probably won't. You know, I've found that matching gigs up with musicians is pretty gratifying in itself - maybe I should be an agent! But it's also kind of fun to turn down a gig... because I've already got a gig! That's never happened to me before! Don't mind me, I'm a little buzzed because today was my first gig in this nursing home project. It went well, people sang and waltzed, I sang two songs in Italian, I talked, I didn't forget anything! I was so happy that I talked to myself on the way home... and when I got home I had two messages waiting about gigs. I now have fourteen lined up. And I'm using the computer on the way to a fiddle lesson, where I'm the teacher! Love, Marion |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: GUEST,Wally Waley Date: 30 Oct 02 - 05:23 PM It wouldn't hurt to do as Genie says, simply make the call to the first AD and say, "Hey, I can give you a discount on the price if we move the booking to X o'clock--that way, you are calling to give them a break on the price, not to ask a favor-- |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: Genie Date: 30 Oct 02 - 02:59 PM mooman, neither Marion nor any of the rest of ever suggested not honoring the original booking. |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: mooman Date: 30 Oct 02 - 04:30 AM I'll always honour a confirmed booking, even a freebie, even if I'm subsequently offered a good payer at the same time. For me, it's a matter of respect for others and reputation. Best regards moo |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: Marion Date: 29 Oct 02 - 04:07 PM Thanks for the input everyone. I'm thinking that I might adopt this as my rule of thumb: I'll make the suggestion of rescheduling only if it's a place that I've played already so I know they already have a good impression of me. But I won't try it for a first gig at a place (which they all are right now). Make sense? (My other rule of thumb, of course, is "Always listen to Genie.") Asking for advances, Rick? People do that? I don't think it would have ever occurred to me to try that one. Marion |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: Genie Date: 29 Oct 02 - 03:44 PM Yeah, Rick, that rule IS a good GENERAL rule. I've been know to drive from Portland to Salem (OR) and back for a one-hour gig that paid $30 (i.e., over 3 hours plus mileage expense for over 100 miles) for $30, to honor a booking I had committed to even though the others I had booked in Salem that day cancelled. Still, many "nursing home" (and foster home) gigs are not your typical "commercial gig." They often pay less than half of union scale, sometimes a LOT less. The smaller facilities sometimes operate on a very flexible schedule and often expect the musician to be flexible in THEIR schedule, etc. They often think nothing of cancelling performers at the last minute even after a time slot has been booked for over a year--because the census is down, the administrator cut the activities budget, there's a new AD, "Marketing" decided to have an open house that day, or whatever. There are usually no written contracts. Strolling room to room music is a good example of where it very often doesn't matter to the AD whether you do it at 2:30 or 3:30 or on Tuesday or Thursday. A lot of ADs would be delighted to reschedule if you knocked 10% off the fee or gave them an extra freebie at a later time. But usually when I offer that, they don't take me up on it, because when they do flex, it's usually because it was easy to do. Let me revise that rule: Developing a reputation as "LOW MAINTENANCE" is important. Developing a reputation for RELIABILITY is CRUCIAL. It's fine to ask an AD to reshedule you if they are willing and can do it without much hassle. You become a "high maintenance" provider if you do this OFTEN or if you persist in the quest after the AD has indidated that it would not be easy to reschedule. Bottom line: is the client satisfied with the end product? Genie |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: Rick Fielding Date: 29 Oct 02 - 03:06 PM Hi again Marion Boy, Genie hit the nail SQUARE on the head. Developing a reputation as "LOW MAINTENANCE" is really important. There are performers I've known who simply NEVER got hired first, because they had reputations for being late, trying to re-negotiate contracts, drinking on the job, being inappropriately dressed, making excuses and the one that hiring people REALLY remember: asking for advances. If you're playing COMMERCIAL gigs, the employer calls the shots. If you're playing concerts (or gigs where folks are PAYING to see YOU) you're in control. I think you made the wise (for the future) decision. Take the financial hit. Cheers Rick |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: greg stephens Date: 29 Oct 02 - 03:03 PM There's no hard and fast rule, in my book. All depends how important gig 2 might be to you, and how easy it is for gig 1 to be resceduled, or for you to find an adequate replacement. But if performers make a habit of doing this, especially if it's for more money on gig 2, they will certainly get a bad reputation! |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: Genie Date: 29 Oct 02 - 02:47 PM Marion, I think it depends on the relationship you have with the facility you'd like to reschedule and the importance of the one you would otherwise have to turn down. But in a situation like the one you described, I don't think it would hurt to just be very straightforward about the situation, ask if it would be an inconvenience to reschedule -- and maybe offer a price reduction to them for their flexibility --, but stress that you absolutely do honor the commitment and do not want them to reschedule if it will be a problem for them. I would probably not ask this of a new client, where I had not established a bond or reputation with them, unless it were a sing-in-the-dining-room-while-folks-eat gig that was not a special occasion or a room-to-room strolling time. Nor would I even broach the subject if I felt my continued employment at that facility was only marginally assured (e.g., with an A D who plays hard-to-get re booking). But there are facilities where I do general sing-alongs and the AD has a very flexible schedule, and this type of rescheduling, at my request or the AD's, is not uncommon. In fact, one thing I tell potential clients up front is that one consideration for which I am willing to use my "sliding fee scale" to accommodate their budget is scheduling flexibility. It would also depend on how far away the gig is. When faced with a need to bend the schedule to fit in more gigs (so I can continue to work for the low pay these facilties offer), I'm not hesitant to broach the subject with the ADs if the date in question is a couple of months off. Once their activity calendar has been printed for the month, it's more problematic. And there are some gigs where I know the time is fixed (birthday party last Thursday of the month at 2:30 PM, etc.). Developing a reputation as a "low-maintenance," reliable service provider, is important, of course. On the other hand, some opportunities that pop up will probably not pop up again soon if you don't act on them. E.g., an AD calls to say their regular music person is retiring and they are looking for a replacement; if you can't do the gig they offer, there's a good chance that whoever does will be hired as a regular and they won't call you again for years. Or a place that pays really well but doesn't often bring new musicians in wants you to do your special Irish program for their St. Patrick's party. It may be worth offering to find a replacement musician for the formerly-booked non-special event program or even offer to do that gig gratis if they will reschedule. I've lost or missed out on some clients because I cannot commit to a rigid, regular schedule such as "first Tuesday of every month at 2 PM" (because I have too many out-of-town trips), and I've lost some because I've made my schedule too tight, resulting in being late when I got stuck in heavy traffic. But in over 9 years of doing music for senior facilities full time, I can honestly say I'm sure I have never lost a current or potential client because I asked if they would consider flexing in a situation like the one you describe. (Some say yes, some say no, a few take me up on my offer of a reduced fee, and there are a few I wouldn't dream of asking. But it's never been a problem.) Anyway, now you've got vastly divergent opinions to mull over. Have we been any help? *G* Genie |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 29 Oct 02 - 02:06 PM Bollox... call 'em and ask... if they say yes, then reschedule... if they say no, then you go and play yer gig and think nothing more of it... Just call the 2nd place and tell 'em to call ya sooner next time! LOL |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: wysiwyg Date: 29 Oct 02 - 01:57 PM NO-- your gut feeling was right. Rescheduling is the booker's option, not the performer's-- unfair fact of life. Once you accept a booking, as far as the booker is concerned, theirs is the only booking on your schedule that you really care about. Each booking, once made, is your main priority. You say to the second place, "Thanks, I've always wanted to play at (name of venue)! But that date's already booked, so what are some other dates we could look at?" ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: C-flat Date: 29 Oct 02 - 01:55 PM I would say you should always honour a previous booking. It hurts sometimes but your reputation will remain intact. I know many working musicians who are in demand to play with an assortment of different bands. Whenever I've asked one of them to do some work with my band they check the diary and, if it goes in, I know they will be there whatever is offered subsequently. If I've ever been forced to cancel, which can happen to any of us, I usually make a couple of calls to see who else is available before ringing the venue, so that I can at least offer an alternative. |
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Subject: RE: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: MMario Date: 29 Oct 02 - 01:47 PM I would say be honest - tell them you have a shot at another gig that conflicts and cannot be rescheduled - but that you will honor theirs. Bet they will be fine with rescheduling. |
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Subject: OK to try to reschedule gig? From: Marion Date: 29 Oct 02 - 01:44 PM Here's the thing - a week ago I made a booking for a nursing home gig about three weeks from now. I've just had a call from another place asking me to play at the same day and time. Now, the one I'm already booked for isn't for a special party; as far as I can tell they just picked that as a nice day to have a concert. But the new call is for a special event that they've already made some plans for, so I can't suggest making it another day. So what I'm contemplating is calling the first place and asking if they would consider rescheduling; of course I would honour the commitment if they didn't want to reschedule, but if it's all the same to them I'd prefer another day. On the one hand, it's very possible that this would be fine with the first place, and I could have both gigs. And of course I would make it very clear to them that I was willing and able to stick to the original date if they want - it's not like I would be backing out for a non-emergency. On the other hand, I'm concerned that even asking might make the first place think that I don't take my commitments seriously - or that if they do agree to change, the bother of another phone conversation and rewriting their schedule might make them think of me as a bit of a pain to deal with. My gut feeling is that maintaining a reputation for being easy to deal with and keeping commitments is more important than a single gig. So I've said no to the second place (though I am trying to hook them up with someone else). But I'd like to know your thoughts, for the next time this happens. Thanks, Marion |
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