Dylan and Lyrics

Subject: RE: Dylan and Lyrics
From: outfidel
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 03:12 PM

> 90% of Heroin users have previously smoked pot.
>
> 90% of people who have sex with animals have previously had sex
> with people.
> Therefore having sex with people leads to sex with animals?

But...2% of people who smoke pot eventually use heroin

Whereas .0000000000000000000000001% of people who have sex with people eventually have sex with animals

At least, I think those are the stats...

Subject: RE: Dylan and Lyrics
From: GUEST,Ms. Penelope Rutledge
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 02:11 PM

Really? Are you serious? I didn't know there was a cure for kippers, aside from simple eschewing them in the first place.

Regarding marijuana, well, I do NOT think it's a good idea to smoke it...or to smoke anything else (like those disgusting cigars and pipes!)...but I would not run around prosecuting people for so doing if they choose to do it in the privacy of their own homes and are causing no harm to the rest of society.

If my cousin chooses to eat revolting things like picked pig's feet, is it my problem? Certainly not. Therefore, why should I call the police on him?

- LH

Subject: RE: Dylan and Lyrics
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 07:14 AM

Yeah and if smoking is bad for you how come it 'cures' kippers

Subject: RE: Dylan and Lyrics
From: Pied Piper
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 07:03 AM

90% of Heroin users have previously smoked pot.

90% of people who have sex with animals have previously had sex with people.
Therefore having sex with people leads to sex with animals?

I apologies for using my "analytical mind" but it does comes in handy now and then.

All the best PP

Subject: RE: Dylan and Lyrics
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 07:20 PM

Hey, man, thanks for another GREAT article! Regarding the first one, I thought it was the real thing... :-) Even if not, it's a marvelous story, and it actually says a lot. I stand by what I said...that IS how you write great song lyrics of the type Dylan did...by immediate, spontaneous instinct, not by mental calculation. Later you can usually go through what you got and fine-tune it a bit, but mostly it just happens right on the spot. But you've got to be in the right space to let it happen. Drugs are not a necessary ingredient to reach that space, but they can be used to do so. I prefer not going the drug route.

Great quote from the 2nd article: "I was one of those fools who think they're hip because they smoke pot."

Yeah. I was surrounded by fools like that from '69 through '79, and I could easily see the silliness of it all. I myself got marvelously stoned on about 3 occasions...which sufficed to satisfy my curiosity about it...and other than that I didn't bother. I had more meaningful ways to spend my time, money, and attention.

I also (like the Beatles and their entourage) found everything hysterically funny the first time I got stoned. Then things widened out to a point where it became downright frightening...because there were no reference points left from which to say "I'm here and that's over there..." I fought with that for ten minutes until I came down from the stone. Actually, my mind was being confronted with a spiritual truth, which I have later become aware of not through drugs but through spiritual investigation. It's a powerful truth, but I didn't know what to do with it at the time.

It has been said that marijuana "leads to harder drugs". Not exactly. A certain type of personality leads to harder drugs. And that type of personality is definitely attracted to softer drugs, and in fact, to any drug that is readily available...so it only appears that marijuana leads to harder drugs, in my opinion. The fact that it was illegal did help in its leading toward other illegal drugs, of course, due to whom you had to contact to get it. In my case, marijuana led to nowhere except deciding that it was something I didn't need or particulary want, though it was interesting.

Most people have a strong tendency toward addiction, the only question is...to what? I figured that in Bob's case the main drug of choice was alcohol (and tobacco!!!). The other stuff would have been minor in comparison.

If you look around in society, the main drugs of choice still are: alcohol, tobacco, caffeine, refined sugar, salt...ALL of which are legal, with some restrictions in the case of alcohol and tobacco (the 2 most obviously damaging to health). The illegal drugs are a much secondary problem, and they get far more press than they merit...mainly because they ARE illegal.

Then there are the behavioural drugs, such as: conspicuous consumption (mall-surfing), watching TV, playing video games, surfing the Net, yakking on Mudcat (Ouch!), sexual addiction (when the act becomes,let's say, somewhat divorced from the emotional foundation on which it might best reside), perusing pornography...and so on, and so on.

Who is not addicted? One in ten thousand. I would call such a person a spiritual master.

Another quote from the article: "I have come to recognize that smoke is anti-life and so I am now anti-smoke."

EXACTLY. That's why I was always strongly inclined not to smoke both marijuana and cigarettes. It IS anti-life to do so.

You want to write something amazing? Just grab a word or a phrase, like it says in the first article...and see where it goes. If you're open to the experience, and the time is right, it may go somewhere very powerful. If not, nothing much will happen.

I've hit spells when I could write a whole bunch of stuff that way, and other times when I couldn't. I don't worry anymore when the dry times come. Doesn't matter. The wave always comes in in its own good time.

- LH

Subject: RE: Dylan and Lyrics
From: outfidel
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 05:40 PM

Little Hawk - You realize that Mark Shipper's piece is a work of fiction, right?

Here's how the Dylan-Lennon-McCartney summit *really* took place, at least according to Al Aronowitz, the journalist who arranged the meeting -- http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj/column2.html

Subject: RE: Dylan and Lyrics
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 03:33 PM

By the way, what Bob did for lyrics, the Beatles did for chords, harmonies, and tunes. That's why he was a big fan of theirs.

- LH

Subject: RE: Dylan and Lyrics
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 03:27 PM

Outfidel, I read that article...and...YEAH! Holy shit, that is fabulous. And that is it. That is pretty much how you do it.

And you know what? If you do it right, it usually does come out meaning something, and often something pretty deep, even if you don't know how that happened.

You know why? Because underlying your surface consciousness are your BASIC BELIEFS and your basic concerns...and they are very strong. If you simply surrender to the spontaneous process and let the words flow into their own patterns freely...by immediate instinct...without judgement...

THEN...

By God, something amazing comes forth and you speak your TRUTH. And that's why it can be so f*cking amazing.

Now, you get someone who has not much really going on in his personal philosophy, I mean little or no deeper postion on anything...so he's got a very superficial view of life...well, he probably can't write this way or if he does he just comes out with crap that really doesn't mean much of any consequence.

Dylan wasn't like that. He had a lot of profound beliefs at a deeper level. So did Lennon. I'm not so sure about McCartney. Maybe not in his case. Anyway, all that Bob or John had to do was surrender to the kinetic process of letting the words flow...and their deeper beliefs would inevitably rise forth in stunning imagery...if they got their calculating MIND out of the way and just let it HAPPEN!

That is how it's done. It took me about 20 years to figure out how to write like that, because I was very much taken with the powers of the analytical mind, and I didn't realize I had to get my logical mind to step aside in order to write freely!

It is a sheer delight to read that conversation between Dylan, Lennon, and McCartney. McCartney was only lookin' at the surface...with his mind...he really didn't get it. Bob was doing it instinctively...but there was more to it than he knew.

That IS the way to write poetry. You don't do it with your mind, you do it with your gut, your spirit, and your heart, and you TRUST the process.

The purpose the grass served on that occasion was, it relaxed them and loosened them up fast. They could've got there without the grass, but it would've taken longer...and it might not have happened at all...who knows?

I wish I could've been there to talk to Bob when he was that open. What a trip that would have been.

Wow. Thanks for that link!

- LH

Subject: RE: Dylan and Lyrics
From: outfidel
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 02:26 PM

On the topic of weed and Dylan's songwriting approach, I always found this piece of "alternative history" to be really funny -- http://www.expectingrain.com/dok/int/pneumonia.html

P.S. I'm a Dylan nut, I also like Lennon/McCartney...

Subject: RE: Dylan and Lyrics
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 02:20 PM

It is not necessary to injest any drug to write as Bob Dylan did. Whether it is helpful to, on the other hand, would depend on the individual. Had no drugs of any kind been available, I feel quite sure that Bob would still have been able to write the lyrics he did, but a few of the specific details in certain songs would have been changed, and that's all.

The importance of mind-altering drugs was blown so far out of proportion during the 60's that it became absolutely ludicrous. I know. I was there. It was a joke.

You can alter your mind in the same and in more powerful ways without using any drugs at all.

You can write like Dylan that way too. I have. But I'll say this...I don't think I ever quite matched the imagery in "Mr Tambourine Man, It's Allright Ma, or Gates of Eden...to name some from his most evocative period...which was around 1965.

- LH

Subject: RE: Dylan and Lyrics
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 10:15 AM

I was always told the best way to listen to Leonard Cohen was with your head in a Gas Oven. I jst find the stream of consciousness that comes from Dylan in his 'pothead' era quite interesting. Anyone who's watched 'Don't Look Back' can see his out his box most if not all of the time.

Subject: RE: Dylan and Lyrics
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 09:57 AM

Willie, for me to listen any Leonard Cohen album, I'd have to be in a coma......

Outside of that, I'd have to agree pretty much with the rest of Willie's answer. Certainly the drugs had some influence, but getting goofed up doesn't suddenly make you Bob Dylan. I think that if you break down songwriting to individual elements, he is not at the top of any list. However, taken as a whole, it's a different story. Dylan is first a poet and second a musician, but he's a damn good musician which is what makes his phrasings so unique.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Dylan and Lyrics
From: Willie-O
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 09:32 AM

To actually answer the question you're posing there, I think yes, genius will show. As to how influential his lyrics were, that depends on what you mean. Nobody could really imitate his poetic style IMHO, because once he hit his own stride, he was one of a kind. There are no easy formulas to write a Dylan song, you have to be Dylan. (Yes, you can compose couplets of metaphors and string them randomly together, which is almost what he did, but those who used this approach are mostly forgotten, for good reason.)   You could imitate his singing, and I was among many that did, but why the hell would you do such a thing? I forget. Must have seemed like a good idea at the time. Dylan's lyrics in the mid-to-late 60's were certainly influenced by the fact that he was a big old pothead, but he's produced a lot of strong material since then, most of which is not nearly so out there.

There was never anything terribly psychedelic about the musical arrangements on Dylan albums, except maybe "Wheel's On Fire", they tended to be rootsy. Whereas bands like the Dead, the Allman Brothers and certainly Pink Floyd came up with music that was very much designed from a psychedelic perspective (sometimes rambling, but with a great dynamic range, improvisation and of course weird effects) and was perhaps best appreciated through the same prism.

You could pose the same question about Leonard Cohen and get a similarly unsatisfactory answer. (Although I think that to sit back and listen to a Leonard Cohen album pre-First We Take Manhattan, you would pretty much have to be stoned.)

W-O

Subject: RE: Dylan and Lyrics
From: Pied Piper
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 09:23 AM

Without the aid of his "Drug" use, or the general publics?
Human beings have been using "Drugs"(and other techniques such rhythmic music, meditation, ect) to achieve altered states of consciousness for tens of millennia.
These states are clearly useful to our species. Many good songs and poems have been inspired by or written in these states. They may also occur spontaneously as well, so cannot be dismissed as "unnatural".
To my mind the best Dylan Song of this type is "Mr Tambourine Man".

"To dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free
Silhouetted by the sea
Circled by the circus sands
With all memory and fate
Driven deep beneath the sea
Forget about today until tomorrow"

But if you've never been there its difficult to explain.
All the best PP

Subject: RE: Dylan and Lyrics
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 09:19 AM

Of course I mean he was on the stuff when writing another such songwriter is Roy Harper who is fond of a spliff. Without the weed would they have bin crap.

Subject: RE: Dylan and Lyrics
From: Brían
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 09:10 AM

By influential do you mean cannabis infuenced his writing or everyone that was smoking it while listening to his music?

Although Dylan and many others smoked huge quantities of the stuff, I would be hesitant to call it a major influence on his writing. Look to Dylan Thomas(hence the the name Bob Dylan), Woody Guthrie, Hank Williams, French Symbolist poetry.

Brían

Subject: RE: BS: Dylan and Lrics
From: Snuffy
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 08:47 AM

The answer is blowing in the wind

Subject: BS: Dylan and Lyrics
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 08:45 AM

I was just wondering about Dylan his lyrics and drugs and want to pose the question (in the style of an exam):-
Dylan would his lyrics have been so influential without the aid of cannabis ? Discuss